Is killing an abortion doctor murder or self defense?

Technically this is correct, not only in US, but in almost all the countries where abortion is legal. Italy included.

The choice is on the side of the potential mother who decides to abort. So that the doctor aiding her actually avoids further troubles. When in Italy abortion was illegal, it happened that young women tried and abort using "handmade" methods, not rarely with the aid of older women, causing heavy damages to their genital organs ... being no more able to get pregnant. So that the illegal abortion killed the fetus and made [not rarely] women no more able to get pregnant.

If the same woman goes to a doctor, that abortion will leave her still able to get pregnant ...

 

So even if this doctor was only performing abortions on women in extreme circumstances ie health crisis, immanent foetal demise, impoverished social conditions where pregnancy is a threat to life

They are also pieces of (*)(*)(*)(*)?

 

No matter how many 3 year old threads you dredge up or how many times you say it, there is no "kid" involved in abortion.

 

Hey you are right! I did not notice but this thread has risen from the dead more times than a vampire at a garlic festival

 

...and some of the posts smell like that's exactly what happened .....

 

If it would prevent future abortions, then yes, it could be construed as defending other human being beings. Unfortunately in all likelihood it would not, the mother would just go find another doctor of death.

I can however think of a few hypothetical (very unlikely) situations where it could indeed be morally justifiable.

 

What exactly is self defense of another human being? Self defense would require that a fetus kills the abortion doctor.

 

Well, you're good at that..creating hypothetical (very unlikely) situations, none having a bearing on real life.



When is it , in your opinion, justifiable to kill someone who is doing nothing illegal?

 

Depends. Did the abortion doctor attack this someone? In that case it's self defense.

You can't kill in self defense for the sake of another. Self defense is about you yourself.

But in what I think you mean, some guy killing an abortion doctor supposedly to stop abortions, then yeah its murder because that's premeditated. Not necessarily with malice a forethought, but it'd generally still be considered murder.

 

An act can be morally justifiable and still murder. Murder is a legal definition, separate from moral justification.

You might for example say that if you could go back in time you'd kill baby Hitler to save lives. There is a moral argument that can be made to justify that, but it still is murder.

 

This is exactly the mindset and rhetoric that has provoked...

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.[10]
July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before in 1984 and was also bombed subsequently in 2012.
December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York.[11] His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after being apprehended in France in 2001.
May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at a church in Wichita, Kansas.[12]

Attempted murder, assault, and kidnapping[edit]

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[13] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[8][14][15]
August 1982: Three men identifying as the Army of God kidnapped Hector Zevallos (a doctor and clinic owner) and his wife, Rosalee Jean, holding them for eight days.[16]
August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[17]
January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed off-duty police officer Robert Sanderson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Not to mention that every day, doctors and clinics are targeted with threats of violence.

 

That's why I refuse to call them "Pro-Life" ...they are NOT.

 

So you think that it should be a valid deffense in court? That if someone goes out and kills an abortion doctor, in order to prevent future abortions, thus doing so to save the lives of whatever future babies would have been aborted. This is a valid deffense to you, and should make it a justifiable murder?

 

Which is a good reason for fetal handgun training.

 

Imagine you are stranded on a deserted island. There are two other people who washed ashore with you. One is a woman– six months pregnant with twins. The other is an abortion doctor. "I'm simply not ready for motherhood right now", you hear the woman say.
"No, please", you beg her, "have the babies, I will take care of them."
"No", insists the woman, "I'm simply not ready to be a mother! Especially now that I'm stranded on a deserted island and have to watch out for my own survival."
Later that night you overhear the woman talking to the man who was an abortion doctor. In the morning the abortionist starts putting together bamboo and coconuts to make what suspiciously looks like an improvised abortion machine.
What do you do?
If the abortionist has a little unexpected "accident", the woman will most likely not be able to abort her unborn children. Is one life more important than two?

 

Fine. Lets play the answer a question with a question game using a scene that will never happen.




You are in a burning room. In one corner, as 1 screaming crying baby. In the other corner, is 5000 freshly fertilized and preserved eggs, ready to be inplanted into a female host.


You only have time to save one or the other, but not both. Which one will you save?





Now. We can play this game, where we dance around each other and never bother to answer questions. OR. We play this game.

 

That's an easy one. There are obviously infinitely more human cells in the baby than those 5000 zygotes.
That's not to say that bigger people have more inherent value than smaller people of course. A more relevant dilemma might have been to ask, for example, how many 4-week old embryos would it take to equal an 8-week old fetus (if we could only save one group).

I do indeed believe that the value of human life increases as development continues after conception, eventually leveling off at some point.

That would depend on the person in that situation. But one thing that can be said is that neither is worthless to the point that the woman's convenience outweighs them both.

 

So in your infinite "pro-life" wisdom, you decide the two "lives" are worth more. You arrange an "accident" which kills the doctor and makes you a hero in your own mind. But then the twins are stillborn. That's when you realize they were not actually "lives," but potential lives. And you are not a hero after all, but a murderer.

 

The "Days of Our Lives".....Grimm's Fairy Tales....Anders Overworked Imagination.....


Yup, a pregnant women washes up on a beach after what? A storm? Whatever ....and states ""I'm simply not ready for motherhood right now",
Gee, why not !??? Care to lie on the beach and discuss it? Like, you've just washed up on a beach and THAT's what women talk about....LOL! OMG!

Why would I want her babies...it's two more mouths to feed.....


"""""""""What do you do?"""""""""""""""


Mind my own damn business....survival is more important than your morals....


Thanks for the laughs......

 

If it were "A Kid"....it could not be aborted, only murdered.

 

Did you see your answer? Of course killing an abortion doctor is murder ....you can't kill someone because you don't approve of their occupation

 

What about a hitman? Or an enemy soldier during wartime? Or muslim terrorists??
What if the hitman has a contract on your unborn child?

 

so what? the law is the law. it doesn't MATTER, in the eyes of the law, what the hitman MIGHT do, you don't have the right to premptively end his life. Are you really that stupid, or what?

 

What about domestic terrorists, like those who terrorize women's clinics?