Is religion a from of evil in disguise?

No one but you has spoken of anyone "enjoying killing" but, to be honest, many do. If killing was not so attractive, we would do less of it. (one million dead Muslims in the America vs Iran/Afghanistan conflict.

There is today survival of the fittest in every society, including America, that is why some are homeless and some have 65 billion dollars.

And you are simply wrong, as the bible, Qur'an and the code of Hammurabi, Constitution and all the other morals books show--MAN creates the rules, morals and guidelines for society, not some imaginary "gut instinct". The are created for the TIME, LOCATION, and SOCIETY they are used in, designed to fit that society.

Hmm, Soccer more violent than religion, roflmfao. Oh, I wonder how many of those ever so violent soccer killers are RELIGIOUS??

As far as religion goes and it not being what the people in it do--that is idiotic. RELIGION Is nothing but the actions of the people that subscribe to that religion. The bible, the Qur'an, all the other religious "works" are totally meaningless, they DO NOTHING. What IS religion, is the actions of the people that claim to be religious. The actions of the religious, IS RELIGION.

Let us see, hmm Muslims are killing, Christians are killing, Hindi are killing, Buddhists are killing, hmm, oh, wow, guess what, I think there is a religion wheres its members are not actually involved in a war, today--WICCA!!

American Christians just killed a person in a foreign nation, without that nations permission with a remote guided bomb, hmm, at the order of a Christian. So yes, even Christianity, with its NUKE IRAN policy is involved in war, bombing and killing.

 

So, as long as the book you believe in says "go ahead and kill", you wont feel any remorse at all (regardless of the time, etc, this happens)? You would quite happily go and kill without giving a thought about it? I would disagree. The idea of a moral fabric doesn't come about because someone decides to make a rule - "All cute babies under 1 year old must have their throat slit and you must wear their insides as a scarf" - go ahead, do it without flintching, wincing, or otherwise. If you can't, you have morals. You may HAVE to do it for one reason or another (some SAW scenario?), but you will still have issues.

Ultimately, if you can perform any action without remorse or something inside that is holding you back, then you are not talking about morals. Morals and laws may be interwoven, but they are not exlusively comparable.

Killers? Violence. If the violence stems from sport, the sport is the instigation. If it comes from religion, then that is different. Are you saying that the percentage of people who are violent from religion is higher than the percentage of people violent from soccer? I would put a figure of around 99% of people in religion are NOT violent from instructions from that religion (there are a hell of a lot of religious followers out there).

For example: 100% of the badgers anonymous celebration club promote badger violence, which is higher than the 1% of religious followers who are violent. Why? There are only two memebrs of the BACC and they are both psychos with knives. Percentages will give it away.

So you are suggesting that more than around 1% of religous followers promote, and practice, religious violence? My 99% figure isn't accurate - it is assumed. If you have some figures I'd be very happy to see them and change my mind.

Hmm, politically perhaps. Idealistically I believe it's about morals. What was before religion, or before competing religions? Beliefs were there.

HINT: I'm agnostic.

Being a member of the religion and killing does not mean that the religion wants that. Being a bad muslim or christian and killing "in the name of the religion", does not mean the religion is meant to teach that.

Yeah, A christian did it. Wait, an American did it, so I guess America promotes violence and killing. A white person ordered it, so all WHITES promote killing. Wait, a MAN did it, so all MEN promote killing. Wait a HUMAN did it, so all humans promote killing as part of a moral fabric. WAIT - a MAMMAL did it, so all mammals promote killing.

Someone's action do not speak for the group they are affiliated with. You are looking at it backwards. You have to ask if the group they are affiliated with speaks for the action.

 

If you were a Borneo Savage 200 years ago, your internal code said it was a good thing to eat your enemies heart.

Internal codes are nothing but the internalization of external rules.

Voltaire was nuts, and his beliefs were ancient, lol. They belong to a different time, place and society, and have little to no meaning today. His views on religion are also meaningless, and wrong. And no, no one creates more havoc than the masses of religious nuts. Evey now and again, we have a Hitler, a Stalin, a Napoleon, but even day we have a thousand reverend Wrights, Jerry Falwells, Shaykh Abi-Ishaq al-Huwayni, or Saudi Arabian Grand Mufti Sheikh Ibn Baaz who asserted that the earth was flat and disk-like and that the sun revolved around it.

While one crazy human can at times reek lots of havoc, the tens of thousands, nay, even millions of crazy religious leaders reek havoc daily, hourly, and by the second.

Muslims fight Christians and Hindi and Buddhists and other Muslims and anyone else they do not agree with, the same holds true for Christians and most other religions. The religious leaders use their personal hatreds and bigotry to create hatred and bigotry in other VIA RELIGION, GOD and Threats of eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation.

Get over it, humans are nasty people, we do NOT need religion to make us even more bigoted, cruel and nasty. Religion has no claim on decency, morals or even common sense. It is a waste of time, energy and money.

 

Yes and No.

If 'religion' is a group of doctrines made by men to keep other men in bondage, it is evil!

If it is used, even by well-meaning ppl, but from the futility of their own minds, and not of God, it is also evil.

If it authorizes violence in spreading it to others by force, it is evil.

If it unifies the spirit of men with the Spirit of God, to represent His attributes and will upon the earth, and sets men free of any bondage, it is Good!

I dont consider myself as 'religious,' (not confined by any denomination or doctrine of men) but a Christian, by which Christ Jesus has set me free of the law of sin & death...following Him & His words does not violate man's free will nor advocate violence upon the population of the earth.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, I seriously doubt that the Hebrews had any "doubts" when the wiped out the men women and children of Jericho and dozens of other cities.
Nor do I see any doubts in the minds of Borneo savages who ate the hearts of their enemies. Do you honestly think the Aztecs though killing people by cutting their hearts out on holidays was horrid? Morals ARE what your society says they are.

We disagree on the number of religious that are violent, at least two entire church congregations in this area have submitted letters to the editor of the Norfolk Newspaper saying we should have nuked the Muslims instead of sending men in. Of the thousands of local christians I have known, most of the males love NASCAR and get upset when there are no wrecks,(what a boring race) and love it when someone in a football game gets hurt (wow did you see joe get his neck broke,that was so cool, glad he was not on our team). 90 percent of our VOLUNTEER soldiers are religious, not ten percent.
By the way, I know several, maybe a dozen followers of soccer and the one thing they all have in common, is the dislike for the violence at soccer games and they all follow soccer because people do not get hurt as badly in soccer as they do in football. Oh, yes, exactly how many of those Badgers supporters are religious? You did not give us those stats?

Once again, it makes no differrence what you or a few others claim a religion is about. A religion IS the actions of its followers. If the religious cut the hearts from people to celebrate the sun, or toss babies in a burning fire in a metal god, that is what the religions are about. When Christains today say, "yayyyyyyy, you don't think like me, you are going to hell" they are VIOLENT people in a VIOLENT religion, celebratiing the eternal torture of people that do not agree with them. The same thing holds true for Muslims and all other religions, with Wicca being the one exception I can think of. RELIGION promotes bigotry and hatred by giving humans one more DIFFERENT thing to pick on. You are not in my little group of gods special kids, so you are worthless and killing you is ok.

 

In the first place, both good and evil are religious constructs. Good = of god, evil = of the devil. As such they are nonsense and only apply from within the society that accepts them as valid. I can assure you that the Aztecs had no problem with cutting the hearts from people to celebrate holidays. And cutting out the hearts was a good, and godly thing, to them.

In the second place, it makes no difference what you "consider" yourself to be. You believe in a god, that makes you a theist. You believe in Jesus the Christ, that makes you a Christian. Since you are a member of the Christian RELIGION, you are a RELIGIOUS person.

By the way, you are not free of the law, go speeding down the interstate and let a state trooper stop you and you will find out. Get caught stealing and you will find out.

90 percent of the bible is about murder, rape, killing of innocents, hatred and bigotry--that is the Christian belief. Not a Christian church exists that does not preach about how great god was to allow the destruction of Jericho, along with all its men, women and children, oh, and keep the virgins as slaves to be raped at will by the soldiers.

The people that follow YOUR religion, make YOUR religion a violent religion.

 

You got a link to that stat (even if you include the OT) of 90%..other than another angry blogger such as yourself??

And you keep talking about "Christianity," so starting with the new covenant written to the followers of Christ, the Book of Matthew, point out the 90%..

The hyper-tones of your posts sounds like you have an 'unresolved' anger problem, leading to bitterness, and manifesting with continuous hateful postings....take a couple of breaths in a paper bag, and then make your case about that "90%"..of 'Christianity"

 

Now are they?

 

Wars come and go, people have internal battles with themselves during and after war. You can be conditioned, that's for sure.. and desensitised.

Ok, but is this because the religion recommends this (and then the followers are performing the actions that the religion commands), or just that the users of the religion (the congregations) recommend this from their own ideals and other factors that create the society they are in? There IS a difference. Just because you are a member of a religion, doesn't mean you don't have other influences you act upon.

You are missing the point; I could say all or none. Are you suggesting that if you are a member of a religion that that religion is your driver for EVERYTHING you do? This is not what I'm talking about.
Being religious + conding violence =/= The religion condones violence.

The reason they killed the badgers is because the enjoy killing badgers, even though both members are buddist.

I can practice any religion I want. I can then claim that I need to kill Obama because of my religion. That does not mean the religion teaches me to do that; I can still make crazy decisions off my own back. I may even be able to drum up support for my crazy actions and maybe even (if needed) by using the religion as a common bond. "I'm Jewish and hate Obama... all Jews should be with me if they are truely Jewish". Doesn't make it true.

What was the Christian story about the son being sacrificed? The man was still going to do it, but it was clear that it was very difficult for him to do so. Understanding that eating the heart will "do great things for you", doesn't mean you still don't flinch when it's done.

I rather thinnk that people misunderstand. Where man has encouraged converting to a religion because there are benefits for the leaders of the religion (tax for example), then it all gets twisted. Most, if not all books, suggest that ONLY god can judge. So anyone, like your "Christians celebrating eternal torture" is making judgement and is actually acting against the true meaning of the book.

There is a load of rubbish in the books.
There are more people wanting to twist the books meaning to their own gain.
There are even more people quite happy to follow incorrect meanings and people like sheep.

If you define religion as what people follow, whether correct or not, then religion is not very good. I rather define it as what it attempts to teach, rather than what people can get out of it. Trouble is, these books are still poured over by scholars looking for real meanings, and hints of what everything means. If the scholars don't have the full answers, I don't expect someone in a random congregation to.


What's strange is, as stated, I'm not "religious".
I am enjoying this conversation as I don't think there is a definite answer.

 

Because religion teaches humility.

 

Since when does religious mean "confined by any domination or doctrine of men"? Religious means following a religion, religion is badly defined, but does always (as far as I know) include Christianity, organized from above or not.

Mind you, on that level it doesn't really mean much, though. If anyone makes an untrue conclusion about you on the basis of you being religious, they are still wrong. I just get twitchy when people decide to use commonly accepted words to say something else than what it is accepted to mean.

 

The link is to your local libary:thebible.con/anyversion

As far as the NT goes, sorry, it also preaches hatred, bigotry and violence. Jesus says repeatedly, "my or hell for eternal torment". If that is not hatred, bigotry and violence, then nothing is. When something tells of something good, it does not pick its SPECIAL people to say it about. If the god you claim exists and the Jesus you claim were real and the religion you claim was about decency, then heaven would be open to all, no restrictions. You would not have to HATE your family to follow Jesus and get to heaven. Please learn to read your own book of laws, before telling others what is in it and what is not.

By the way I do not hate anyone, never have. I do however, despise hatred, bigotry, and ignorance, which nearly all religions (including Christianity) perpetrate.

I have no "hyper-tone"whatever that is. I speak quite plainly and state my personal beliefs with the reasons for them. You do not have to share my beliefs as I do not have to share yours. I would suggest that instead of ranting and false accusations you consider addressing the facts. The wiping out of tribe after tribe in the mid-east with the approval and assistance of god. The bigoted and hateful teachings of Jesus (my way or hell). The list is long and extends for 4000 years after the origins of the bible. From god killing people for seeking him and seeking knowledge, to the hateful christian bigots today that say "nuke Iran". To deny that Christianity is like Islam and the other religions in is bigotry is true ignorance. A religion is a religion, is a religion, and they all preach nonsense, superstition and ignorance.

 

Yes as I stated, they certainly are. Good and Evil are religious constructs that vary from religion to religion, time to time and place to place. What was good and evil to a person in Judea 2000 years ago would have very little similarity to what you or I consider to be "good or evil".

 

All this great fun you are having is missing the point.
Religions do not SAY anything.
Religions do not give ANY instruction.
Religions are NOT books.
The bible and the Qur'an are NOT religions.
Religions are one thing, PEOPLE, People tell others what they want their religion to mean. People interpret and change and modify and make up meanings for the "great books".
RELIGION IS PEOPLE AND THEIR ACTIONS. When a person who claims any religion says, lets nuke Iran, or lets fly planes into the towers in NYC, they ARE religion in action. They ARE justifying their actions with RELIGION, THEIR RELIGION.

If religion was what is in books, we could look at it objectively, as I try to do and see what it was all about--when it was written--and not try to apply it to today, where it has no validity.
The OT was about rules for HEBREWS. It had no concern for anyone that was not Hebrew. The commandments did NOT apply to non-Hebrews. God even killed non-Hebrews and assisted the Hebrews in genocide against HEbrews. Such a book has no validity in my life. The NT tells a bigoted tale of a "god on earth" who said, "my way or hell", "you must hate your family to follow me".

The Qur'an is 95% a paraphrased OT and NT. Made to fit the society of nomads in the 5th century instead of city-dwellers in the first.

These books give some history, the myths, superstitions and beliefs of primitive, violent societies and have NO place in today's world.
The one true modern religion, although it partakes of historic religions from around the world WICCA, IS a religion of love, peace and understanding. It is also just as superstitious and ignorant as all the other religions, but at LEAST it leaves out the hatred and bigotry.

 

Religion teaches arrogance (my god is better than yours), fear, bigotry and hatred, NOT humility.

 

All religions are unorganized, as far as uniformity of belief goes. Go to any religious congregation and in the group you will find people who claim the religion, but whose actual beliefs run the gamut from atheist, to agnostic to Believer, to TRUE BELIEVER, to religious fruitcake. Very few members of any religion have exactly the same religious beliefs as other members, except for "totally brainwashed" cults, that control the actions, (even as far as when they can use a bathroom) of the members, as well as force specific patterns of belief.

All religions are basically an unorganized, group of ignorant, superstitious nuts. That is why they cause so much trouble, and why it is so hard to understand their actions and claims.

 

Your broad brush of which you paint millions of ppl would put you in the same irrational category of those you have slandered!

And so using your premise that all religion is bad (including those that take care of the poor & needy, as well as defending the defenseless), then the successes shud be the nations & countries w/o any religion or tolerance of, such as the old USSR, China, and N. Korea.

However, I know for a fact that countries with the same ppls, like S. Korea, which has a large Christian population and some of the biggest super-churches in the world (100K+ attendance), are a free & prosperous nation and not looking to evangelize thru warfare or putting ppl in bondage.

The problem appears to me, unless one wants to dwell on olden cultures (medieval, etc.) that 'mankind' is the problem--irregardless of religion, with their cultures being the difference. Arabs follow intolerant Islam, whereby modern Christianity does not threaten force to conscript new believers. Christianity of the early church (the 1st 300 yrs following the death/resurrection of its founder, and the modern (past couple of hundred of years) church age, with the exception being the period of the state church of Rome & colonial Europe of old, has been peaceful on the parts of the followers.

So ppl are the problem in general---the desire for power, position, wealth, etc.

 

They key word here being "consider". I'm not considered about what people consider, only what actually is.

 

Relying on outside source for justification(my god is better than yours) is the ultimate form of humility. And humility is not a virtue.

 

Two people are members of a religion, Islam. One flies a plane into the the towers and claims in a video that it is for Islam. The other condemns that act and says that Islam does not condone those actions.

Both claim their religion for opposing views.
Which is the ACTION of the PEOPLE that you will take as "THE religion"? Both? I don't believe that is possible - one of them is wrong about what the religion stands for. If people can interpret differently what the religion stands for, then surely the actions of the people can be flawed and not be based on the true meaning of what the ideologies, texts, and traditions that are documented and taught actually mean.

So what is different, to you, that says WICCA *IS* a religion, but others "religions" are NOT religions? You are saying it is "PEOPLE AND THEIR ACTIONS".

Could I not be a member of WICCA and still decide to blow up an airport to get everyone's attention of WICCA? My interpretation of WICCA can be wrong, but surely I can still act in it's name, even if that is not what WICCA is about...

 

Then you never consider good or evil, since they donot exist, except in the minds and consideration of mankind.

Good person, stick with local, state and federal law and forget about the religious nonsense.

 

Sorry, but "my god is better than your god" is not humility, it is arrogance, it is ignorance, it is stupidity, it is superstition and it is hatred, but we agree, humility is not a virtue. Be honest, if you are good accept it and if you are "not good" either accept it or work to change it.

 

Jack Ridley actually has a point. However, it's only an appearance of humility that comes as a side effect of attributing judgment to an outside source.

If you judge someone by a standard that you can attribute to an external authority then you relieve yourself from the debt of your judgment and hence make yourself insignificant. This is humility per definition.

As you say, it is of course also arrogance since you take it for granted that you're righteous in your conviction of an external authority. Though this only shows when those around you don't share the same conviction. If all around you share the same conviction then you appear truly humble.

 

Then prove it.

 

My meaning was that WICCA is the ONLY religion that teaches HARM NONE!
All other religions teach, 'my way or the highway'. That is harming those that do not agree. Muslims hate Christians and on and on, because of what their religions teach. Wiccans do not hate "because of that their religions teach. A Wiccan may go nuts or may hate for personal reasons, but it will never be because his religion teaches HARM NONE. He may decide he hates taxes and blow up a building, he may decide he hates his boss and kills him, but he will NEVER do it because his religion says HARM NONE. He will do it because he is nuts.