Is Russia about to push toward Kiev?

And how, exactly, do you imagine that a mere "referendum" might be able to obviate the inevitability of internal collapse?

 

If Russia claims that the Crimea is part of Russia, shouldn't the world give Crimea back to the Tartars that Russia took it from?

 

Because internally there are people in the country. And people have the opinion. And their opinion was that USSR should be preserved. The opinion that it should collapse was pretty much external.

 

There are mechanisms in the Ukrainian Constitution that LEGALLY allow the Crimea to develop a Referendum that would allow the Crimea to vote to succeed from the Ukraine.

The ONLY thing we asked of Putin was to allow the LEGAL process to take place rather than an illegal process which is nothing short of Russia annexing the Crimea.

This was all about Crimean Natural Gas Deposits which were found to be over 1000 times greater than originally thought.

Putin feared that the Ukraine could undercut Russian Natural Gas Prices and using the extensive existing Gas Pipeline system in the Ukraine currently supplying Europe with Russian Natural Gas that the Ukraine would replace Russia as the #1 Supplier of Natural Gas to Europe.

THAT...is why Putin did not wait as he used the referendum as an excuse to annex the Crimea to avoid this possibility.

AboveAlpha

 

Oh! The acting president came from a street where he was seen with whistling people of Maidan. Now he and self-proclaimed people from the streets changed the constitution for themselves. They canselled the laws that were granting equal rights for rusians comparing to ukranians. They promised to fight with russians furthermore and at the moment local ministry of internal affairs naturally killed one of the bandits from Pravy Sector and Pravy Sector promised to revenge... If americans or anyone else wants the law and order from these people then they can wait for such a law. But crimeans had all the rights within the international law to act like they did. They haven't come to this territory under the consent of ukrainian rulers like it was with Kosovo. They lived in Crimea for centuries. It is their land. And it is crimeans who have the right to decide their future.

All the talks about the so-called annexation of Crimea are shallow and pointless. Like taking part in G8. They will never have any proof. And the process of the referendum was legal. Of course it is 97% of voters that voted to be with Russia. Of population the share of those who really want to reunite is a little more than 80%. And the minority of less than 20% doesn't include only those who are against. But still this share is quite big and our job is to protect their rights and make all the possibilities for the development. But now it is our job. And the competition between western project of peaceful Maidan for the money of tax payers and bloody 'annexation' has already started. I bet that the people US department of state have invested will make a bloody mess.

I be you a pardon but does it mean that it was Putin who stays after coup in Kiev? You serious?

They had 23 years to do so! But the only gas that they managed to sell to EU was stolen from Russia. I mean 23 years! That is a life of a generation. And there were absolutely no plans to develop this deposit. I can tell the bonuses that Russia received:
1) People. 2 millions of russians that proved that they are bold enough to go against the will of all the criminals from the governments of all the so-called democratic states, just because they want to be russians. This is priceless. This is smth worth dying for.
2) Resort. If all the gas turn to be nothing and there is nothing valuable in the territory the climate and history will remain. Crimea saw ancient civilization and wars. Its fruits and sea is well-known in the countries of former USSR. This will remain and is a part of Russia. Once a facsist scum all over the world (because I am sure that facsists in Kiev will definetely work against the fouls who invested money into them) is defeated once again it will be a fine alternative resort for those westerners that would like to see what Russia really is. The one in Sochi is mostly too high-classed. It's gonna be expensive and not for everyone. Crimea has a chance to take the niche of low-cost resort, our face and glory. With the Black sea fleet (soon having the main ships replaced) and the story of referendum which will be one of the most heoic pages in the history of Crimea for sure, it will be informative as well as relaxing. And if crimean tatarsjoin the project then their example would be remarkable. It's an ambitious plan and it will not happen this year but in a while it is possible to bring more income and prestige than any gas.
3) Black sea fleet base. It is important. It exists and there is no need to make a different one in Kuban. We paid a lot of money for it (in advance). And it has always been a ground to blackmail Russia. That if we don't agree to the conditions of honourable ukrainian partners they would kick out the naval base from the Ukraine (opinion of those crimeans who have always lived and served there and consider this base as their own child wouldn't matter for these US puppets of course). So that is a huge bonus.
4) Gas deposits. Since Russia obtains these deposits it will be easier to get into projects of those countries that are our neighbours in the region. The infrastructure that for sure will be russian will help us to economise on spendings of those states who have deposits in their territory and want to benefit on it, but don't have a chance to do it because of the EU policy of economising on manufactury or US strategy of rulable chaos. If we unite economically and benefit from it we will have a chance and grounds for further cooperation. which worth more than money in excahnge for gas.

 

It could be given to Orthodox Byzantium if the west returns everything stolen by crusaders and drives the turks back to where they used to be. This looks a lot more possible and fair. But so far it is up to living people of Crimea to organise their future.

 

I don't think you fully understand or appreciate just how badly things could get in the Crimea.

Between the Russian Special Forces as Spetsnaz is in force in the region...to Ukrainian Nationals who without a doubt are going to start blowing things up....and let's not forget the U.S. Corps. which are probably never going to trust Putin ever again....I think Putin could have handled this affair a hell of a lot better.

And the U.S. has not as yet placed Economic Sanctions on Russia and we really don't want to as all it would do is severely hurt the average Russian Family....but if we do....such U.S. Economic Sanctions are NO JOKE.

AboveAlpha

 

Then at least give the EU some time to collect the money for its parts which will go bankrupt soon after it becomes that sanctions of the West only help the world to reorganise economy and to expell western capital from the necessity to control markets of Russia, China, India, Latin America etc. for a start.
http://newswave.eu/economic-sanctions-russia-will-also-affect-latvia/

 

Before Khrushchev gave the Crimea to Ukraine, they were already and autonomous region. The Russians killed and moved out most of the Tartars in the 40's, this grab is just another one in a long line of Russian imperialism and probably won't stop with Crimea.

The argument that the Russians descended from the Rus, well, it is generally accepted that both Ukrainians and Russians descended from the Rus so that argument is moot.

 

So what? And the people who lived there were russians.

There was a tough situation in the 40s. Hitler invaded USSR (as some people with brains still remember) and he tried to use different nations against jews and russians and basically he tried to split USSR using the national hatred. The chiefs of crimean tatars made their choice in favour of Hitler and they made most of their people to obey Hitler's orders. Once USSR defeated nazists and returned to Crimea and occupied territories it started lots of court trials and those who were killing jews and others as well as provided nazists with the information and generally collaborated with nazists were convicted. If what was done by tatars would be done by russians they would be executed. But if the whole tatar generation is executed then the whole nation would be exterminated. Besides, at that times young tatars were not making decisions on their own. They obeyed their chiefs which made them kind of soldiers. On the other hand Stalin couldn't left their deeds unpunished and resettled them to another region as a punishment. It was quite cruel, but it made sense. Nowadays after Crimea rejoined Russia there is a decision to reabilitate this nation which was convicted at times of Stalin. I think it is a right decision. And the primary task is to cut tatars from the power of organised chiefs who exploit these people not allowing their own kids to go to schools...

Before the times of Rus when noth ukrainians and russians were the same nation there were times of Russian empire with great emperors Peter the Great and Catherine the Great. At that time there already was a difference between two relative nations. And one of these nations gained control over Crimea with its regular troops... Will this arguement work?

 

Well, it wasn't Peter the Great, he couldn't hold onto it.

 

But its collapse was not due to external forces.

I could have the "opinion" that I should be able to sprout wings, and fly. But that would not make it possible to do so...

 

Under Peter the Great Russia started movement towards the seas. Under him Russia secured an entrance to Baltic sea and started to move towards Black Sea. Catherine continued.

 

Was the arms race externally driven or USSR invested into arms jeopardising a sector of goods by its own? Was the star wars program external or it was an obsession for CPSU? Did the prices for oil decrease due to external reasons (USSR was not a part of OPEC who decided to increase the output that drove the prices down) or USSR started sales by its own? Was propaganda like 'Voice of America' working due to external reasons or it was an internal KGB project? Did Soviet KGB officers fled with all the secrets of KGB due to external reasons or it was an internal problem of USSR?

I agree that the collapse happened mostly because soviet society made it possible. It's our fault that USSR was killed. If everything was done right then there wouldn't be any of the bloody mess that actually happened. But it was not us who were the killers. It was not our plan. Cold war was a war which soviets lost. But it doesn't look to be over.

 

I find it most instructive that you would consider the VOA to be a dissemenator of mere "propaganda."

In any case, it was, of course, due to internal weaknesses that the USSR could not withstand a sharp decline in the worldwide price of oil, or engage in an arms race with the US...

 

It was. It was. Soviet propaganda was based on a rotten basement. So it lost to american propaganda which was based on an american dream. But that was the case that there was a counter-propaganda. USSR tried to emphasize the international ties and working class unity. VOA emphasized on national hatred and absense of any classified society. Finally the VOA won and the republics of USSR went to war with each other. The blood of armenians and azerbaijanis is on tongues of VOA. USSR internally had nothing to do with it.

I agree that a girl raped is guilty in being weak or unlucky. But a rape is a fault of rapist but not its victim. That is how my logics tell me. Maybe you have another and better logics?

 

Well, I suppose that begs the question: Which is really more appealing: the American Dream (which you label, pejoratively, as mere "propaganda") or "a rotten basement"?

I think the question answers itself...

And your conclusion (as contained in the final paragraph, above) derives from your premises...how, exactly?

I am still trying to figure out how the matter of rape might play into this, as if it were (somehow) analogous.

But, just to play your little game: Women, by nature, are physically "weak" vis-a-vis men, typically--much less upper-body strength--so the victim of rape is, of course, "guilty" of nothing whatsoever. It is the perpetrator of the crime who should feel shame--not the victim.

On the other hand, there is nothing inherent in the nature of any country that should make it susceptible to collapse. However, it it chooses an economic system that is simply unsustainable, that collapse eventually becomes inevitable.

 

Soviet propaganda was as good as american. But the american one was new to soviets. Thus it used to be appealing. In the beginning soviet idea of equality was extremely appealing to people who usually had to starve. With a change of situation appealing power of different propaganda is also changing. An american dream nowadays is rarely used without inverted commas.
Read this forum. Read how americans are blaming their president for weakness (the president who started so many wars already) and their country (the one with the highest social standards) for an unfairness towards people. I saw it already in the USSR from the soviet people. At this point there is a risk that americans would kill their own country if they are 'helped' with propaganda from their rivals.

Directly. USA welcomed national states of Armenia and Azerbaijan, who will forever fight for Qarakakh region. But it is not welcoming them inside one legal entity like USSR where these nations would both live in peace. Why?

Every comparison is not completely right. Don't you really understand what I am saying? I can use your comparisons if you have any.

Sorry, but it is very difficult to 'prove' that a woman was raped and not spreads her legs in a hope to get a very good husband (rapist). After a rape there is still a room to tell that a raped woman is a whore, which uses its soft power and the rapist was doing a completely natural thing! That's why so many rapes are being unreported by victims. They feel ashame more then the rapists. If you try to imagine an information campaign in the press of the women who are seducing innocent men and then accusing them of rapes it is quite possible to get a picture of what can happen with public estimation of a rape. For that we just need several bankers, TV-magnats, senators and guys from presidential team to like a hard sex with screams and tears. Isn't it possible?

So again. Returning from an example to situation. Do you really think that everything that happened to USSR to the actual benefit of USA is the fault of USSR?

Can capitalism sustain itself? ))))
The classical theories of Smith and Ricardo no longer work! The theory is changing after the practice and practice goes towards the desires of the strongest men of every generations. It is true that soviet economy hasn't changed since it fell into 'dutch disease' of natural resource trading. But this has nothing to do with theoretical susceptibility to collapse! USSR was just unlucky to collapse... or lucky enough to collapse the first.

 

I thoroughly dispute your fundamental premise--i.e. that America was merely spouting "propaganda," rather than telling the unvarnished truth--so I shall not respond as if I agreed with this premise.

Well, perhaps it is because of American ideals: We believe strongly in the doctrine of self-determination; which was clearly abrogated by the Soviet Union's absorbing weak neighbors, when it was a superpower.

The problem with this one is that it is not even somewhat "right."

Yes. Unequivocally.

Well, if it cannot, you may certainly feel free to dance upon its grave, if you wish.

For the moment, however, it is doing much better than communism did; and much better, even, than European-style democratic socialism is doing.

 

IMO Putin wlll not proceed against Ukraine unless the Ukraine attacks him, and, given their bellicose posturing which really started this whole thing, that seems, unfortunately, a real possibility. The last thing the USA should do is give them any kind of encouragement. Mostly, they recognize that they are hopelessly outgunned and outmanned by Russia but if we give the more extremist factions reason to believe we may help if hostilities begin they could see that as their only chance to establish the Reich on the Volga

These are mainly descendants of Ukrainians who Stalin deported to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyrstan because they sided with the Nazis in WWII and, in fact, came to conduct a three sided war against the Germans AND the Soviets which lasted into the 1950's. They were allowed to return under Khruschev but were then sat on rather tightly to keep them from going after the settlers whom Stalin had brought in to replace them

Putin would be very foolish to risk world opprobrium when he can easily seduce the majority of Ukrainians with cheap gas and many other trade concessions to their mutual profit. All the EU can offer at this point is IMF austerity and no money. Geography is very much on Putin's side here. Ukraine is part of Russia, and will come to see that it could easily be the dominant part, once Putin is gone.

 

This whole thing is about Crimean Natural Gas which a few months ago was discovered to be existing at 1000 times what was previously estimated in deposits in the Crimea.

What Putin feared was because the Ukraine has a massive complex Natural Gas Pipeline System which is currently supplying Europe with Russian Natural Gas.....that the Ukraine could undercut Russian Natural Gas Prices and use this Crimean Natural Gas and the already existing Pipeline in the Ukraine to pump Gas to Europe thus replacing Russia as Europe's #1 Supplier of Natural Gas.

THAT...is what this is all about.

Putin was LIVID when the Ukrainian's embarrassed him during the Sochi Olympics and as soon as the games were over Putin sent in a large number of Spetsnaz into the Crimea to terrorize and non-Russian Ukrainian Nationalists.

As I have posted on other topics I am extremely familiar with the methods of Spetsnaz as I trained with them and I am proficient in Systema and Sambo.

Putin used Spetsnaz as their interrogation methods are not designed so much for the extraction of reliable intel as they are trained to use the person being interrogated FAMILY MEMBERS....and CHILDREN are preferred for use by Spetsnaz as children are easy to control but we learned a LOG TIME AGO that a Parent will do, say or admit to ANYTHING to stop the torture of their children and thus such interrogation methods employed by Spetsnaz do not lead to the acquisition of any reliable intel. as such a method renders any intel. garnished unreliable and suspect.

Thus because of this Putin is using Spetsnaz as a TERROR TACTIC as there are very few people who will risk the torture of their children even during a war.

This is VERY NASTY BUSINESS going on and I really get physically ill when I read members post about any virtues of Putin....as he is one cold calculating SOB.

AboveAlpha

 

the government in power voted so it was legal...in many democracies the government has the power to eject it's leaders or cancel themselves out, general elections aren't a requirement to change government mid term...

 

According to american propaganda made in the USSR what was happening was the will of regular people and great achievement of democracy. According to propaganda NATO existed just as a response to soviet block. But now we see that the USA thinks that it was a winner in a cold war and NATO was not dissolved but gained an enourmous power envading any regime that is called bad in the internal newspapers. I mean You can deny that american people is ears deep in propaganda, but this belief is only for internal use.

After what happened to Crimea your national beliefs into self-determination is probably no longer sacred. Besides every entity that was 'absorbed' by USSR still lives the life of this particular entity. This is a fact. Ukranians developed under the soviet union into a big country so even 23 years of constant stealing was not enough to steal everything. Btw Crimea within these 23 years lost a lot of industries and possibilities, but gained nothing. If there is a question what to return to Ukraine there would be nothing. But the case is that any country that is made free by americans is turned to a yet another state which merged to the US. The way of living, language, mass media and even sexual preferences are getting unified, so there is no place for cultural diversity and there is zero tolerance to country's traditions. It was impossible in the USSR. The USSR was not a perfect state for a national diversity but for sure it was much more convinient then the modern world.

In my viewpoint it is. Policy has much to do with f...ing. And I mean not only the perverts that gained power in the west for the moment. I mean what Nuland says. She said: "f..ck the EU" and this comparison not being 100% exact is right for the situation when the one who is more powerful bents over the rest. Do you think that Nuland told this comparison meaning smth else but rape?

Mmmm. Can we use the same rule for another situation like for Russia and Ukraine and Crimea? Can we tell that Crimea rejoined Russia because it was the fault of Ukraine? Or the rule works only when it is profitable to USA? ))

Dancing upon the grave is not a russian favourite dance. We keep the graves as holy. Recently the grave of russian empire was kept with order and the same we do with the grave of USSR. The (*)(*)(*)(*) over them is not russian and the way it stinks helps to identify the one who did it. And once capitalism dies and you will helplessly look around and shiver in panic you can remember that we can help exactly in this difficult situation. But for now capitalism is running at a loss and going bankrupt according to its own rules. It doesn't work, man. Being a perfect system for a predator capitalism slaughtered its competitors. But once he stayed for a while alone he started to kill its sense. Its moralty. Its allies. It forgot evey motto that was written on its holy papers. The swelling burden of national debt is not the worst thing. Unemployment and decadence is also quite natural. The main thing is that everything that happens in the policy of the west from national medic care to sanctions against Russia is nothing else but a bloody show. From the first to the last word. It is a lie which is made to conceal the fact that the state and the way of living has already died.
The capitalism that was winning live in 1960s to 1990s. Then it agnised and died at a level of ground zero. Since then there is no democracy or capitalism. Yet another empire.

 

Barring some unforeseen events involving a serious escalation of tension in the Eastern part of the ukraine or extremist reactions in kiev, I doubt Russia will invade the Ukraine proper. They have plenty of other ways to squeeze the new regime in kiev.

 

Actually, I don't think that is open to dispute...

Would you care to explain, please?

It probably had much more to do with the military pressure being applied by the Soviet Union--uh, Russia; golly, it is just so easy to confuse the two--than to anything attributable to the people of Ukraine...

Ah, yes: a little warmer-over Marx...