"Israeli actions don't influence anti-Semitism"

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/J...aeli-actions-and-rise-of-anti-Semitism-339350

that's what Israeli cabinet minister Bennet says, and possible believes.


wow, he truly is an idiot.

and anyone who believes such rubbish, is an idiot.

 

You cannot shine his shoes... The best man Israel has since the invention of sliced bread...

You favor people who march by your drum beat, when you have no idea how drums are played.

 

its like saying: "the actions of the Nazis didn't and couldn't possibly have influenced world-wide views about Germans".

 

Stop comparing everything that happens in Israel to Nazis.
Every person has a right to say what he thinks. You disagree ? Fine.
Don't call others idiots.

 

Bennett: Jews living in Palestinian state is "U-turn for Zionism"

~By HERB KEINON, JPOST.COM STAFF
LAST UPDATED: 01/28/2014 18:33
http://www.jpost.com/Defense/LIVE-Naftali-Bennett-speaks-at-security-conference-in-Tel-Aviv-339624

Bennett, during his speech, stressed his disappointment in the peace process
and said that Israel must not give back land to the Palestinians.

"People said that giving back land would bring security, but in the year
2000, terrorism was rampant in the streets of Haifa, Tel Aviv and
Jerusalem," he said.

Jews cannot live under Palestinian sovereignty for the simple reason that if
they do they will be killed, he said.

Not only did Bennett not back down from criticisms he sounded Monday against
Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's suggestion that the settlements may
remain under Palestinian sovereignty in a future agreement, but he ratcheted
up his criticism.

"It will not happen, and cannot happen," Bennett said of the idea. "You know
why Jews can't live under Palestinian sovereignty? Why? Because they will
kill them. How do I know, because it happened."

Bennett said it happened in 1929 in Hebron, when the ancient Jewish
community there was butchered by their Arab neighbors, and it happened again
in 2000 when two reservists made a wrong turn and were lynched after being
taken to the Palestinian Authority police station in Ramallah.

Everyone knows, he said, that if an Arab wanders into to Herzliya he will
leave safely, but that if a Jew gets lost and ends up in Jenin he will be
killed.

"We all came here to the land of Israel in the name of Zionism," he
declared. "The essence of Zionism is sovereignty. If there is no sovereignty
there is no Zionism."

He said that placing Jews under foreign rule would be a Zionistic U-turn.

"We tried it in Europe, and it did not really work," he said, just an hour
after getting back from what he said was his first trip to Poland and
Auschwitz as part of a Knesset delegation.

"We were always proud that only a Jewish army will defend the Jews. What has
happen too us. What is the significance of even raising this idea. What does
it say about us."

Bennett said that from security and practical reasons, and first and
foremost because of values of Zionism, "I suggest and demand that this idea
be removed from the agenda."

Bennett called on the international community not to use Israel as an
experimental lab. "People live here with dreams, families, and very
difficult experience. What is the price we pay when you play with our fate.
The Israeli public won't let that happen any more."

Regarding his alternative, Bennett suggested his pre-election plan to
restrict the points of friction and declare Israeli sovereignty over the
"Israeli parts of Judea and Samaria, where 400,000 Israelis, and only 70,000
Palestinians live." He said those Palestinians will be offered full Israeli
citizenship.

In the rest of the territory he said the Palestinians would enjoy full
autonomy, hold their own elections, pay and collect their own taxes, build
for themselves, and create transportation continuity so there will be free
movement in Judea and Samaria.

"Is this perfect? He asked. "No it is not perfect, But is it much better
than the fantasy of putting in the heart of our land an enemy state? Yes."
He called on everyone to "grow up" and discard the illusion that every
problem has a perfect solution.
________________________________________
IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
Website: www.imra.org.il

 

I don't do that, so stop being dishonest about my comments.

- - - Updated - - -

Bennet is full of arrogant (*)(*)(*)(*), or pathetic denial.

Of course the actions of Israel influences anti-Semitism!!!!

Israel is the Jewish State, the State of the Jews, so whatever the Jewish state does, affects how people view Jews.

its only common sense.

 

Why some of your threads contradict the enclosed confession ?

 

There is in my post above <re Naftali Bennet> enough information to give Jews pride and perseverance to all (Jews and educated gentiles). Throughout Jewish history till today a few Jews have strayed away and were recognized as <turncoats>.

 

Hmmm. You've got that right.

I cannot remain neutral /sitting on a fence.

I am pro-Palestine





And Against Israeli policies towards Palestinians - the occupation + ongoing theft of Palestinian lands/ illegal settlements etc.

Anti- Israeli scumbag political leaders like Lieberman/Benjiyahu /NaftiBennet/Ysrael Beiteinu / JDL Kahane Chai other Zionist extremists , etc.etc.

--- I've got nothing against Jews who are against Israels unjust policies , on the contrary , we're all against the evildoers .

.....

 

Ya, those ones are only a "Crazy lot of self deluding M.F-ers (wink) "

Nothing against Jews ... Every second post you make is against jews and Holocaust denial, genetic evidence dredged up from some antisemitic cesspool to show they are this or that or from here or there. Seems you either love them or hate them as you sure have them on your mind!

 

Well as you :



All you can come up with , is Ad Homs.





tata...

 

Only posting your own quotes Marlowe. If that's ad hominum then blame yourself.

 

A bit of cognitive dissonance there.

He is correct in that there is a base of anti-semitism that will hate jews no matter what policies Israel enacts. These include but are not limited to a majority of Muslims, the majority of eastern europeans, and all white nationalists.

He is incorrect that actions like cast lead and continued settlement expansion do not create negative views of Israel and some of those people will also become anti-semites.

It is sad that many Israelis and their fellow jews cannot differentiate between anti-zionism and anti-semitism.
I know many jews who view any criticism of Israel, no matter how well deserved, as nothing more than jew hating. It is a convenient cover for not having to examine the reality of the occupation. A cover much like the jew haters use claiming only anti-zionism.

 

"These" include all muslim and christian countries. Black nationalists in US hate jews not less than white nationalists do. You also could enjoy reading british posts on this forum.

"some of those people" were happy with many years of terrorist activity and constant bombing of israeli towns. They always were antisemitic and use Israel just to justify their antisemitism.

Zionism is a jew national movement. Israel is a jew national state. Those, who hate zionism and Israel, hate jews.

It depends on what kind of criticism. Speaking about "stolen land" "apartheid" "nazism" etc is in fact anti-semitism in form of criticism. Israel is a democratic state. There are more than enough critics inside of Israel. And when somebody living thousands miles away of Israel and having no idea about local reality tries to criticize Israel, he only helps to haters of Israel and jews.

 

that's a pathetically symplistic way of looking at it.

 

Yes, "some of those people".

WRONG!
One can easily be anti-zionist and not anti-semitic. For instance, I am a supporter of Israel, but I am not a supporter of neo-zionist expansion. So, it could be said that I am anti-zionist, when in reality I am anti-neo-zionist.

One can be vehemently against the occupation and not hate jews.
One can be vehemently against the settlements and not hate jews.

In fact, there are a goodly number of Israeli jews who feel that way. Its about politics, not about jewishness.

While the anti-zionist propaganda labels are over the top and by inference jew hating, they are obviously not reflective of reality,

But don't conflate the "stolen land" accusation with the others, the settlements in fact on palestinian territory, territory recognized by pretty much everyone else on the planet as being palestinian. (including your staunchest allies).

The notion of apartheid is simply stupid, as is the accusations of fascist/nazi like behaviour.
And while most of the accusations of "war crimes" are fallacious, a few of them are true. (and i don't mean the WP nonsense).

You seem to be suggesting that Israel should not be subject to criticism by anyone not living in Israel because such criticism helps jew haters. NONSENSE. As you say, Israel is a democratic nation and we both know there is all kinds of criticism within. Israel does not exist in isolation and is subject to global criticism (and praise) as every other nation on earth. The issue is how much of that criticism is actually merited.

- - - Updated - - -

inaccurate too.

 

No. When you start to use the word "zionism" it starts to be about jewishness, because zionism is national jewish movement. And when you use an anti-israeli stamp like "neo-zionist expansion" you start to be anti-israeli.

The goal of anti-zionist propaganda is not to reflect reality but to deligitimate the jewish state.

So what? Everyone on the planet doesn't recognize the west Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. And? There was a time when "pretty much everyone on the planet" led to Holocost and decided the fate of jews. With creating of independent jewish state this feast was over. And why I should care about several dozens of muslim countries and those which depend on their oil and their money? Even general secretary of UN confessed that Israel is discriminated in UN.

No, it is not stupid. It's a means of demonising and inciting against Israel

Maybe. You are ready to be a judge? Israel has it's own independent judicial system and doesn't need external help.

No, you perfactly know that Israel is treated not "as every other nation on earth". Yes, the issue is how much of that criticism is actually merited. So, how many examples of such criticism you can find on this forum? More than one percent? I doubt.

 

I would address the first two paragraphs of the story because they are most relevant to this.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/J...aeli-actions-and-rise-of-anti-Semitism-339350

In fact Bennett is correct because the "policies of Israel" and the "regional development" hasn't really changed all that much over time. Israel has continuously been forcing non-Jews from their homes (and homeland) for decades and replacing them with Jews. The "policies of Israel" based upon Zionism and the tyranny of Zionism has never really changed. "Zionists" have always been willing to violate the civil rights of the non-Jewish population of Palestine going back to at least 1922 and the Mandate for Palestine so nothing has ever really changed.

Where we do find correlation to the rise of anti-Semitism is with the increase in information technologies where people are no longer being deceived by Israeli propaganda or where we didn't know what was going on in Israel for decades because the information wasn't being distributed around the world.

But there is a more fundamental problem with anti-Semitism and that it is all too often associated with new knowledge being revealed about Israel because of the advances in information technology. People are forming invidious individual prejudice against the Jews (anti-Semitism) because of the actions of the Zionist government in Israel but Israel does not represent the Jewish People. A German should not be forming invidious prejudice against a German Jew based upon the actions of the Israeli government under Benjamin Netanyahu. That German Jew has nothing whatsoever to do with Israeli policies or actions and should not be condemned for them.

Fundamentally its an issue of stereotyping the qualities of one person based upon the unrelated qualities of another person (or group of persons) and is the same problem we face in America related to African-Americans.

It is correct and appropriate to condemn the actions of "Zionists" that we might disagree with but that should not translate into individual prejudice against Jews as not all Jews are Zionists and millions disagree with the actions of the Zionists leaders of Israel including many Israeli Jewish citizens.

On the flip side though the "Zionist Israeli Jews" are bringing this problem upon themselves and the Jewish People of the world. In the current peace talks with the Palestinians the Israeli government, lead by Benjamin Netanyahu, is insisting that the Palestinsians accept the proposition Israel is the (only) "Jewish State" which implies its government of Israel and its actions represents the Jewish People as a whole.

So the problem really comes down to more information that is being misused based upon stereotyping that results in invidious individual prejudice (anti-Semitism) as well as the fact that the Zionist Jews that control the Israeli government are promoting a belief that they represent the Jewish People as a whole.

While I don't believe it would happen, and doubt that it would have much impact, something as simply as Benjamin Netayahu making the accurate declaration that he does not, nor does the Likud Party he is a member of, nor does the Israeli Government, represent the Jewish People of the world or even all of the Israeli Jews but I doubt he would ever be willing to express this fact.

People really need to focus on the current and historical actions of the Israeli government and, while it is and has been controlled by Zionist Jews, it does not nor has it ever been the representative of the Jewish People. There should be no correlation between the two. It can be appropriate to condemn Zionism based upon its actions but that should never be allowed to translate into the condemnation of the Jewish People (anti-Semitism) because the two are not nor have they ever been the same.

 

No, zionism does not start be be about jewishness. It refers to a political movement. the original goal of zionism has been met. The state of Israel has been established as the jewish homeland.

Are you suggesting that there is not such thing as neo-zoinism and its view of eretz israel?

I disagree. Are you suggesting that being anti-occupation and anti-settlement is an attempt to delegitimize Israel? That is nonsense.

What the hell does the holocaust have to do with this? Yes, a strong and independent jewish state has been established. I agree that Israel is discriminated against in the UN. But what does that have to do with the legitimacy of the settlement program? Zip, nada, bupkiss.

Yes. But it is still a stupid label and a gross misuse of the word - ergo stupid.

Except the IDF is investigating itself when it comes to accusations of war crimes, not the independent judiciary. Ar eyou suggesting that the military doesn't have a vested interested and never lies about its actions?

Yes, that is exactly the point. Like I said, propaganda based criticism like "aparthied", "racist", "concentration camps", "war criminals", "fascists" are all labels designed to evoke an emotional response as opposed to an intellectual response. They are "bumperstickers" that do not require the "believers" to actually think or analyse the reality of the situation.

OTOH, those of us who are aware of that reality, also recognize that Israel does merit legitimate criticism, both internally and externally. You appear to be suggesting that the actions of the Israeli government and is military forces are above any criticism. In which case, Israel would be the first totally right and totally pure of intent nation on earth. And that is ridiculous.

 

Yes, one can be an anti-Zionist and still have the utmost respect for Jews and Judaism.

but they tend to be few and far between.

the anti-Semitic anti-Zionist is more often the rule, not the exception.

 

Cannot be,
Unless that person is an Arab under a mask

 

Britannica:
"Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement ..."
Wiki:
"Zionism (...) is the national movement of Jews"

I'm not sure if I ever heard the word "neo-zionism" in Israel. Maybe some people call themself this way. So what? There are a lot of political vews in israel. What is your point?

I've said very clear that "The goal of anti-zionist propaganda is not to reflect reality but to deligitimate the jewish state." Where the hell did you find settlements or occupation?

The relation between UN and legitimacy of the settlements I leave for your home work.

Of course military crimes are investigated and judged by military courts. In your country it is different? You also know very well about special investigating commisions. It was in case of Sharon, turkish flotilla and others. Again, what's your point?

It "appeares" only in your imagination. You don't need to make fantasy about my suggestions. I speak directly and clear:
"There are more than enough critics inside of Israel. And when somebody living thousands miles away of Israel and having no idea about local reality tries to criticize Israel, he only helps to haters of Israel and jews. "
What is not understandable? Of course everybody can criticize Israel. But in constructive, reasonable and respectable form.
What actually is your point regarding criticism of Israel? Israel is the most criticized country in the world. You want more?

 

never heard of christian zionists?

zionism is a political movement, not a religious one.

That there are differing kinds of zionism, the most aggressive of which is neo-zionism, which believes in Eretz Israel, amongst other things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Zionism

http://www.haaretz.com/neo-zionism-101-1.277397

"The ideology of this organization is a cross between Greater Israel and the security activism of Mapai [the forerunner of Labor]," says Eli Osheroff, editor of the student newspaper at the Hebrew University. "But their tactics are borrowed from [Foreign Minister Avigdor] Lieberman, which means sowing hatred, factionalism and violence. For example, during Operation Cast Lead there was a demonstration by Arab students at the university, and Im Tirtzu activists shouted things at them like 'We will burn your village,' and 'We will meet in reserve duty.' But it doesn?t stop there. Every lecturer who proposes a different way of thinking about the situation here is accused, not of being a post-Zionist - which is the usual allegation - but of engaging in 'anti-Zionist incitement.' The goal is to frighten and intimidate everyone who thinks differently from or dares to criticize them."

I agree. However I get to settlements and occupation simply by way of legitimate criticism that you identify as an attempt to delegitimize Israel. You seem to be unable to differentiate between the two.

Seems you need to do some yourself.

[qute]Of course military crimes are investigated and judged by military courts. In your country it is different? You also know very well about special investigating commisions. It was in case of Sharon, turkish flotilla and others. Again, what's your point?[/quote]

That the IDF is guilty of war crimes. Not nearly on the scale that anti-zionists and palestinians would have the world believe, but the fact is there isn't an armed forces on the planet that when engaged in combat does not commit war crimes.

You are the one that conflates legitimate criticism of Israel with anti-zionist propaganda. Israel isn't even remotely close to the most criticized country in the world, despite its disproportionate share.

I have no trouble in criticizing Israel in a reasonable form.

 

I've heard about christian zionists. It's a christian movement which supports zionism which is a jewish national movement.

So you just confirm my statement that there are a lot of political views in Israel. In fact I don't need your confirmation. I also don't need your lecture using an article from a leftist newpaper. The article was written in 2009 about a radical movement "Im Tirtzu" which today actually doesn't exists.
The thread is about Israel and not about specific israeli political movement.

The thread is not about your fantasies about me. It's about Israel.

OK, I got it. IDF is guilty of war crimes just because it is an army. It's a great idea. Try to sell it to somebody else.

Again: this thread is not about your fantasies about me. It's about Israel.
Israel is the most criticized country in the world.
"Since 2003, the UN has issued 232 resolutions with respect to Israel, 40% of all resolutions issued by the UN over the period and more than six times that of the second placed country, Sudan"

 

righto.

Zionism is a political movement, not a religious one.
Jews are not a political movement, they are simply members of a particular religion.

have you familiarized yourself with the various flavours of zionism now? Or do you persist in the notion that its all one in the same?

I get it. If you think that the UN is the source of all global criticism you might have a point. I don't debate that the UNGA is a biased entity when it comes to Israel. I merely dispute your erroneous conclusion that because of that Israel is the most criticized nation on earth. Its not even close - Israel just isn't that important or influential on the global stage.