Israeli President; Peres: Recognition of Jewish state 'unnecessary'

As I stated previously, please outline the historical and contextual narrative relevant to the figure you cited and illustrate it in conjunction with reputable sources.

 

You'll have to do a lot better than that. Your constant use of superficial equivalencies only serves to demonstrate the limits of pop culture historical revisionist rhetoric.

 

I've stated a historic fact. If you wish to actually dispute it with something please feel free to do so.

 

Not the general immigrants/refugees themselves, but those who were at the forefront of the Zionist movement were certainly 'invaders.'

As to the issue of legality, the indigenous people of Palestine did not want their country flooded by a foreign peoples. They did not want their country partitioned. Their wishes were disregarded, so you could consider the immigrants and the partition plan to be illegal (according to the UN Charter, of course).

 

Your entire so called argument lacks any kind of intellectual honesty. You merely repeat a certain point of view.

 

Uh fellows; what you are doing is quite amusing in a "take that!" "No, you take that!"

sort of way . . . but I'm not seeing any actual strikes hitting home here. So what say we all try a bitter harder now. Yes?​

 

I can't dispute (or indeed possibly confirm) something if I don't know what your figure relates to.

 

We certainly are fortunate to have a man of your stature to act as an unbiased arbiter here.

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Your knowledge of history is remarkably focused.

 

It's known as honest consistency. Furthermore, I'm right.

 

I'm sure you think so. No doubt ethnic cleansing of Jews meets with your approval because there are so many historic examples.

 

Your attempts to paint me as anti-jewish are laughable , based upon nothing but my evident contempt for neoZionist fascism. I'd demand your retraction but there's nothing to be earned from such a scalp. Pick on somebody your own size.

 

Great job, Yetzerhara, on defending the Israeli position.
"Arab Israelis enjoy the very democratic rights of Israeli Jews."

However, the native population of Palestine, before the Israeli invasion, was not Arab, but Syrian, Christian Israel.

Secondly, "democratic rights" are really privileges that are controlled by the majority. Such "rights" can be abrogated at any time and in any way. For example, zoning laws are considered "democratic" and under these zoning laws, people have their houses and businesses confiscated.

3rdly, "Israeli Jews" are neither Israel or Judah, because Biblically, to be Israel or Judah, you have to acknowledge Jesus Christ as King of Judah and Israel.

No matter how pure one's blood line to Abraham and Israel one's blood is, if they don't follow Jesus Christ, they are cut off and are not Israel or Judah any more.
View attachment 24977 Abrham was a Syrian, Deuteronomy 26:5

 

I guess it's just unfortunate that your so called arguments are so dependent on childish rhetoric. NeoZionist fascism? That is some very trendy sounding bombast.

 

Uh-huh, history happened, and since it has how do people actually move forward? What would motivate Israelis to negotiate with people who are committed to their destruction?

 

As an armchair Zionist yourself you have no experience of being on the receiving end of it.

 

I am going to address your comments 1 by 1.

In regards to 1, the Golan became a defensive issue when it was originally used to shoot missiles at Israeli farmers. In fact Moishe Dayan prior to the Yom Kippur war argued it should be returned to Syria and argued Syria was no danger to Israel. He was proven complerely wrong. Syria attacked during Yom Kippur from the Golan Heights area and ironically it was General Sharon, called out of forced retirement who then led his tank squadron into the Sinai defeating the Egyptians and enabling the IDF to focus on Syria.

In fact because of Dayan's mistake, we almost had a nuclear war. Israel was preparing to fire nuclear missiles at Syria and Egypt because the Soviets threatened to attack Israel through the Golan area.

Please if you are going to talk about Israel wanting the Golan understand the Golan is a tiny area. Other than having a cliff that looks right over on Israeli farms its tiny. In fact what causes disputes is not the Golan but limited water supplies that Syria, Lebanon and Israel are concerned about with the Lake of Galilea. With due respect its not the Golan Heights that is of concern. Its the water. Please read up on it.

In regards to 2, your selective revision of history means what? Do you mean to suggest Israel simply has a mistrust for Egypt and Jordan and not the other way around and Israel just unilaterally hates? Don't be absurd. what is even more absurd you picked the only two Arab countries in the Arab league who in fact entered into peace agreements with Israel and who Israel has established peace with as your example. In regards to Jordan you really need to find out the history you think you talk of. King Hussein and now his son King Abdullah have been genuine friends of Israel. In the past in particular 1948 it was the British running and heading the Jordanian Armed Forces who initiated the war to try kill off the jews of the Middle East and failed. You might want to try find out why Beduin Arabs, the very same Beduin armies who saved King Hussein from assassination by Yasir Arafat in the Black Sabbath uprising in 1967 did not have animosity with Israel and in fact how some of the IDF's bravest soldiers have been Beduin. Jordan from 1949 to 1967 occupied the West Bank. In that time you really need to find out what it did to Jews on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem. Go find out how many synagogues it burned down and how many Jewish civilians they killed and how they assisted the precursor offatah Hawks and the PLO, the Fedayeen use Jordan and the West Bank to attack Israel. You clearly have no clue as to that otherwise you would not try revise history to suggest Israel had some one sided animosity for Jordan. When Hussein and then his son Abdullah had enough of Palestinian terrorism they turned to Israel as an ally. While Jordan remains a Jew free state that prohibits Jews from owning land or obtaining citizenship, it still calls itself a Palestinian state. You do know it was illegally and unilaterally created by Britain deliberately lying to the League of Nations and seizing 80% of Palestine and turning it jewish free and a puppet monarchy to placate one of the sons of Faisal after they and the French lied to Faisal and threw him out of Syria after lying to him that the peace treaty he had arranged with Israel to live peacefully side by side would be ripped up by Israel? Maybe you want to go read up hmmmm? The problem is you don't seem to be too aware of any of this.

As for Egypt they created the Gaza Strip as an open air jail for Palestinians who they detested and considered inferior. Nasser was not only a blatant anti-semite who imitated Hitler right down to the mustache and uniform but equally as hateful of Palestinians. He baited them and ridiculed them and sent in his operatives to incite them to attack Israel using the Sinai. Anomisity with Egypt? Of course. Nasser was pro Hitler. His government was based on Hitler. His armed forces and police were run by former Nazis. His soldiers dressed in Nazi uniforms right down to the boots, riding pants, helmets and goose step. He openly called for the ridding of the Middle East of all its Jews. How about you read back some of his speeches?

It was his Vice President Sadat who openly admitted Egypt had bought into the Hitler model of Jews who died rejecting that. Read Sadat's biography and why he too had a Hitler mustache and hero worshipped the man.

Both these countries chose to forge peace agreements with Israel and yet these are the Arab countries you want to quote when trying to revise history as if Israel for no reason hated them?


In regards to 3, could you at least make an effort before you mistate the basic precept of Judaism to find out what it is. Do you realize how many people like you come on this forum, mistate what you think that theory is and go off on a tangent lecturing Jews that we think we are better the others. Such nonsense. Please educate yourself.

I again will address your myth. The concept of jews being chosen has nothing to do with us thinking God prefers us. That is an anti-semtiic myth created by Christians who hated Jews and wanted to rile up their people.

The doctrine simply states, that if Jews choose to worship God through a collective of people as opposed to worshipping God on an individual basis, then God will remember the Jews. This is the convenant or promise. It says, God will remember us if we remember God through collective not individual worship. No more, no less.

It was a concept created at a time when the Hebrews faced assimilation and destruction by many other peoples. So it was a doctrine intended to preserve the collective. Nothing in this concept suggests Jews are better then others or God likes us better. Pure nonsense. Absolute anti-semitic myth and its precisely why people like you mistate our religion, mix it with the myth that Zionism is a doctrine of racial superiority and on and on.

In fact the Old Testament, the Torah, 9first five books), the Talmud, the Kabbala and countless essays by Rabbias and jewish scholars discuss why we respect all religions. It is precisely why unlike Islam or Christianity we do not forcefully convert people like these 2 religions do. It is precisely because our religion teachs a true Jew respects the people of other religious faiths as equals.

So would you please stop stating that false myth. Its as pointless as the people coming on this forum repeating false quotes about the Talmud. Pointless. You can repeat that myth over and over but its false.

Zionism as well is not even a religious doctrine. It defines the Jewish collective as a political nationality not a religion and it is precisely because it is not a superiority doctrine it has enshrined in the Israeli constitution Arabic as an official language, the right of non Jews to vote, elect leaders, own land, have all the rights Jewish Israelis have and Jews are not allowed in Sharia law nations or were not allowed in Christian nations.

In regards to your 4th comment this one is the most absurd of them all. Muslims have Sharia law nations. Christians have an Anglican nation and many Catholic nations including the vatican. India's state has close ties to Hinduism. Thailand's state enshrines Buddism which technically is a philosophy not a religion. Japan for centuries was closely tied to Shintoism and China, Taoism.

The only double standard is the one you have that seems think anyone in the world can have a nation BUT Jews. That is the double standard and how more absurd can you be suggesting because Israel has a Jewish nation no different than the Anglican nation of Britain or the Sharia Law Muslim nations of the Middle East, its a standard only Jews ask for. I call you out on that as complete b.s. and a glaring example of how you hold Jews out as the only people in the world not allowed the right of universal sufferage. Why? How do you think because Jews have what others have, we want something different?

Now for the other part of your comment placing conditions on liking Jews provided they follow your views, get this clear. This notion I must agree with you to get you to learn to like me is not just patronizing but it shows just how steeped in unintentional anti-semitism you are.

Where do you get off placing conditions on me as to what I must do for you to approve of me as a Jew?

What is that? What you think I must know the place you dictate to be a good Jew? I must know my place and that place is not to have a place but to forever be without a country-then and only then you will approve of me? Really?

Once I am on that point, the lecture that you presume to claim all we Jews have a persecution complex? Really now. What is that lecture before or after you tell me what my place is? You have any idea just how absurd that sounds?

What I have a persecution complex because for over 3,000 years people like you have tried to lecture Jews that we don't k now our place? really? The slaughters over the thousands of years by people in the name of Muhammed and Jesus against Jews, what that makes me have a persecution complex?

Tell me does the holocaust give me a persecution complex?

Think. On this forum you read people saying Jews are European invaders of Israel and you say I have a persecution complex? European invaders? Jews fleeing the holocaust are invaders? Jews fleeing Christian racism and Nazism for their very lives have a persecution complex? What Zyclon B gives me a persecution complex?

The 900,000 Jews thrown out of Middle East countries of whom 750,000 more than any alleged displaced Palestinians that were forced to flee to Israel what they have a persecution complex? The Felashies forced to escape Ethiopia what are they persecution complexes?

Give me a break. Would you accuse me of having a persecution complex if I was Christian and escaped Sudan? Do I have a persecution complex if I am a Coptic Christian in Egypt or an Amidyah Muslim in Pakistan or a Kurd in Iraq or a Berber in Arab countries?

Do the countless Zoroastreans and Bahaiis attacked in Iran along with Jews, communists, so called feminists and student militants have persecution complexes?

What absurd name calling is that to take some one trying to deal with an existential threat and dismiss them as you do with one patronizing and presumptious insult that we have a persecution complex?

Yes I know, if someone is raped they have a persecution complex. Right? Isn't that the reasoning? Or are you saying if Jews are singled out for terrorism, genocide, and double standards, or simply seek universal sufferage that makes us guilty of a persecution complex...right...you are going to label all Jews?

You know how absurd that is? You even know what a persecution complex is or what the Passion Play was in Christianity and how it created this so called persecution complex in the first place? You don't even know the origin of this so called phenomena and how its a Christian concept not a Jewish one.

On the one hand you accuse all Jews of having a superiority complex and then a persecution complex at the same time? How illogical. How absurd. How impossible. You do realize if you want to use such phrases you need to learn what they mean and how a person with a superiority complex could not have a personality complex but in fact they would need to suffer from an inferiority complex to then be able to have a persecution complex? You even know who coined such phrases and why psychology and psychiatry no longer use them and why?

 

Correct. It's a racist political doctrine which practises ethnic cleansing. Its adherents simply use Judaism as a convenient shield for their oppressive and illegal activities.

 

Good to see you making progress.....your rhetoric has now moved from childish to infantile.

 

......or is it Jew hating Nazi sympathizers who use Zionism as a convenient cover for their racist hatred? So hard to tell.

 

It can be. But in moon's case it's clearly not because she/he has clearly demonstrated an ability to be able to make the distinction between Judaism on the one hand, and the racist ideology of Zionism that's a major component of the colonialist project, on the other.

 

Zionism has never defined Jews or anyone else by race. You can keep repeating it does but it won't make it so. The concept of the Jewish collective and how it is defined is not by race and never was.

The only people who have suggested Jews are a race are people like you and of course the Nazis.

 

Moon is not defining Jews as a race though. He/she said that Zionism, as political ideology is racist, which it is.

 

Actually Moon has not. In fact Moon refers to Zionism as an ideology of race which necessarily misrepresents not just the concept of the Jewish collective but necessarily refers to all Jews as a race. Therefore what you said is of course not true.

More importantly you also show your confusion. Judaism refers to the Jewish religion not the definition of Jew as envisioned by Zionism or the identity used for the Jewish collective. Judaism, the belief in Jewish religion is only one of many other compoments that can go in to defining what a Jew is let alone what the Jewish collective is as envisioned by Zionism.

You clearly myour misuse of the word Judaism do not understand that.

It is possible to be a Zionist and not practice Judaism as a religion. There are Bahaii Zionists, Christian Zionists, atheist and agnostic Zionists, Buddist Zionists.

Zionists can be Israeli citizens who practice Judaism, Islam, Christianity or the religion of the Druze, Beduins, Bahaiis.

Zionists can be Jews like myself who are Canadian but believe in the right of Jews to express their collective identity through universal sufferage, i.e., a sovereign state definition.

The kind of Judaism I practice is far too complex for someone like you to understand given you insist on using simplistic steretypes and then mistate even those.

Like many modern Jews, my beliefs are an infusion of aspects of Judaism, Buddism, Taosim, Unitarianism, humanism, gnostic Christianity,
Hinduism, Existentialism, Spinoza, on and on.

Unlike the stereotype you and Moon try repeat about Zionists I believe in a state for Palestinians, do not hate them, do not think I am superior to them and like Israelis do not appreciate it when people stereotype all Palestinians as terrorists anymore then I like it when all Israelis are stereotyped the way Moon and Trout throw out their stereotypes.

In fact the Israelis I worked and lived with taught me a lot about life and never taught me to hate anyone nor are they war mongers or any other demon characterization they are sometimes given in these discussions. They are just people like Palestinians trying their hardest.

I don't much have a problem with anyone's beliefs. I believe in treating people the way I want to be treated. That pretty much describes every Israeli and Palestinian I met. Neither are demons, animals. They are just people.

Trout you and Moon have an agenda to demonize Israel and Israelis and Jews and anyone else who supports the right of Israel to exist.

You appropriate the Jewish religion and do not even know you have using the word Judaism when you meant Jew because you can't understand the difference between the two.

You are like many other posters, mistaken as to what the Jewish identity is but you think you understand it. You clearly do not.

 

Please show me where moon has referred to Zionism as an ideology of race. It will be difficult for you because he/she hasn't. You have totally misrepresented his/her view.

You've also misrepresented my views too.

I'm well aware that Judaism refers to the Jewish religion. Further, I have not claimed that Judaism refers the definition of Jews as envisioned by Zionism or the identity used for the Jewish collective. That's what's termed as a strawman.

So that's one false claim you have attributed to moon and another false claim you have attributed to me. Do you enjoy making stuff up?

I'm also well aware that "Judaism, the belief in Jewish religion is only one of many other components that can go in to defining what a Jew is let alone what the Jewish collective is as envisioned by Zionism" and didn't claim otherwise.

So that's another strawman. Are you actually able to comprehend information and engage in a discussion?

Again, I know "it's possible to be a Zionist and not practice Judaism as a religion" and didn't claim otherwise..

I know "there are Bahaii Zionists, Christian Zionists, atheist and agnostic Zionists, Buddist Zionists" and didn't claim otherwise.

So yet more strawmen. Geez, where are you getting this stuff from?

I didn't claim that Zionists can't be Jews like yourself, or suggest that they do not believe in the right of Jews to express their collective identity through universal sufferage.

This is all an invention of what you think I've said but I've said no such things.

The notion that "I have used simplistic stereotypes" is totally unfounded because your assertions as to what you think I've said, in reality, I haven't said them.....LOL.

I didn't talk about your beliefs, so again the fact that you've introduced this into the discussion, as if it's a counter argument is totally irrelevant - a strawman - because I didn't claim anything to the contrary..

I didn't claim that you didn't believe in a state for Palestinians, or hated them, or thought you were superior to them etc etc.

Finally, myself and moon do not have an agenda to demonize Israelis and Jews and anyone else who supports the right of Israel to exist.

Your entire post was an invention of your own making and is the most bizarre post I have ever read in my many years posting in this forum.

 

He did say that and then in 2012 said this;

Khaled Mashal: "Jihad is the way to liberation, along with all types of national and diplomatic struggle ... there is no value for all those types without resistance."

One would think that if he truly did give up the Charter he would have it rescinded and mention peace as a goal rather than Jihad but shucks, what a crazy idea.

Hamas Charter; "Article Eight: Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. "

Khaled Mashal: ""Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north," Meshaal said. "There will be no concession on an inch of the land."

Hamas Charter; "Article Eleven: The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

Guess he didn't see the speech I just quoted from. Here is a vid of it.

2008? Hang ten Daddy O. The above vid and quote is from 2012.

Strange, they don't make their own benign translation if the ones the world has are incorrect. In any case, the vid remains unchallenged.