It’s Time to End Magical Thinking About Russia’s Defeat

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Lil Mike, Nov 17, 2023.

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  1. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    We did indeed, and very rightly so; do you by any chance believe that the Russians are not doing exactly the same to foster their own interests?
    And the result was that, after the ensuing free and fair elections, the Ukrainians decided that they had had enough of the autocratic Putin regime and wanted a more modern and western way of life, after the european model.


    First of all, it's their own decision and their right to live a free life; remember that they had been like slaves under the communist soviet regime for decades.

    Now, your argument about neo-nazis is completely absurd; that's the argument pushed by Putin and his clique in the Kremlin in order to indoctrinate and motivate their own people.

    Yes, undoubtedly, there were neo-nazis in Ukraine, and there certainly are quite a number still, but no more than in many countries in the world, including the USA.
    Moreover, the Ukrainians, who want to join the European Union, know that, among the many conditions they will have to fulfill before their admission, the adoption of western european values is essential, as is the fight against corruption that has been rampant in Ukraine, and is one of the legacies of the communist soviet regime and is still an institution, you might even say a national sport, in Russia.
     
  2. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine is so corrupt, we had to sign off on their corrupt behavior corrupting the US in the process! We had to basically concur with 'legal' blackmail lol. Ask yourself if you ever thought we'd engage in strong arming using international finance? It is not possible for Ukraine to modernize itself, not without conducting free and fair elections and making a real,serious effort at democratic reforms. Religious liberties and not oppressing minorities in Ukraine.
     
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  3. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    Your mind seems highly contaminated by the Trump mantras. They are actually fighting corruption as they know they are closely monitored by the US and the European Union on that aspect as well as on other aspects they need to improve to enter the European Union. And, for your information, they did have free and fair elections in 2014 and 2019.
    The main reason why Trump is against Ukraine is the fact that President Zelensky resisted Trump's request to find fake charges against Biden in a world-famous phone conversation in 2019.
    Remember that infamous "perfect conversation" that led to the first Trump impeachement? That was CORRUPT Trump trying to make Zelensky help him in his re-election campaign.
     
  4. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well the NSA had it's shot with my analytical skills , but I'm not clear that the current situation is an NSA issue. This is about policy, not mere intelligence collection and analysis.

    And, as always, my country is America, not the myriad of other countries that buy off our corrupt leadership. Ironic since your country is definitely not America, it's Canada, and given how I don't want to interfere in another nations business, you are free to implore Canada to give to the war effort until it hurts.
     
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  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I think Russia has more room to fudge on a definition of "victory" than Ukraine has for defeat. Another poster has already made the argument that even if Ukraine permanently looses territory, it's still a "win" for Ukraine. It sounds like that's your position as well. I think Ukrainians might actually disagree with that but hopefully you will be able to convince them that a loss of 20% of their territory is still a victory.
     
  6. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine is Russia Jr, it always has been. I feel bad for the average Ukrainian citizen, who are peons of a corrupt government that was behind its oil bills, then tried to slime their way out of paying said oil bills. And now the Ruskies basically want their money and are playing hard ball.

    They deserve each other, they are both anti-democratic and anti-Western. Neither will be an ally or useful to the bloc.
     
  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Your reference to Chamberlain has joined the likely thousands of other references to Chamberlain since the start of the war. If only you had read any other pages of history than the two page World War II section from high school, you might be able to draw much more accurate historical analogies.

    But you still have not answered the basic question oh brave Churchill, how do you win this unwinnable war without NATO entering in an active capacity? For the slava ukraini crowd, it's been a question I've been wondering about since the start. In World War II, we actually entered the war, so is that your solution? World War III?
     
  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Really? That sounds far fetched but OK. It's an opinion.
     
  9. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    This shows you have no understanding of the situation. Ukraine is trying to move away from autocratic Russia and is strongly pro-western as they have asked to be part of the European Union.

    Russia will certainly never be an ally to what you call the western bloc. However Ukraine, when finally admitted within NATO, will definitely be an asset, as its army probably is now the best trained army in all western Europe, as it has been resisting Russia's invasion since 2014. Think about that!
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2023
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  10. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    8 freedom, that's weird stuff.
     
  11. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    • The current war in Ukraine is a lesson in the more esoteric sort of attrition most people never consider. Almost every munition used by Nato is smart in one way or the other.almost nothing smaller than a guided missile is smart in the russian arsenal. What does all this mean? Well smart is great if you are trying to kill a bunch of fool terrorist on the other hand it costs 10 to 20 as much to make and takes probably six times as long to build as its nearest Russian equivalent for approximately the same size bang when it hits the ground. We and our allies are suddenly having to ramp up production and whether we can do that and maintain the quality control necessary for smart everything is to put it kindly unknown. In the end for every six they make we make one, and while ours are far more accurate, the lethality at point of impact isn't much if any different.
     
  12. freedom8

    freedom8 Well-Known Member

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    You do have a point there. In a way, the current Ukraine/Russia war is rather a WW1 type of war and there definitely is a need for more WW1 type of equipment and, specially, ammunitions.
    However, the western world is flexible enough to ramp up production of those cheap and rough ammunitions. Now is the time to show the agressive countries that we are able to adapt to the circumstances.
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Unwarranted assumption. We could if we so chose but we have not yet chosen too in fact we have thousands of such rounds in stock piles about the country but no one makes any money shipping those over to Ukraine. so they stay in stock piles because well they're obsolete. Neocons and Dem leadership don't give a crap how many Ukrainians or Russians die as long as the kick backs from the MIC keep rolling in. The MIC has now found the perfect war no Americans are dying so no one cares over much so the MIC sucks up billions in tax payer. dollars makes sure the right politicians have a fully funded campaign war chest and covertly funds glorified attack adds against those on to their disqusting little charade of a war. Meanwhile the death toll nears 300 hundred K for all side and the wounded are, as per usual, ever more numerous, so the other MIC, the medical industrial complex gets to make some money making prosthetics of one sort or the other for the wounded. That seems to be where we are at the moment in this dystopian world being brought into existence by our DC centric government. But Just around the corner lies another pandemic out of China, it has no symptoms no death toll, effects only young children and can only be detected by a very expensive test, And requires the whole family to be quarantined for fourteen days to keep it from spreading.
     
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  14. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    Putin is not going to use Nukes, at least no mass amount of missiles being launched to an adversary. What he might do is use a truck, a nuclear device located in that truck, and making sure the amount is a tactical size, not strategic. But it causes numerous problems in the aftermath, especially for Russia given their logistical nightmare that keeps occuring and occuring and occuring.
     
  15. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    They have no victory unless you think victory means having a continuous men and women in uniform. But traditionally, they are in a quagmire. That is neither victory or defeat. It is purgatory. Eventually, they either must conquer the war of attrition with Ukraine or must withdraw. Those are the only two options available to Russia.

    Russia has occupied the Crimea since 2014. The territory they have lost were the territory they won in the intial stages of the war. But eventually, Ukraine will not accept anything less than all territories going back to Ukraine, including the Crimea. Those in the two areas that seceded from Ukraine, the Donetsk region, the Russian-born citizens, and their persons will need to move to Russia, if any peace deal is to be made. And yes, that is the position of the Ukraine, more or less.
     
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  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    OK that sounds like the more traditional definitions of "victory" for Ukraine that I was hearing on this forum in the first year of the war. That and victory is right around the corner.

    I think such a definition of victory is wildly unrealistic, and I've yet heard a plausible way Ukraine is to achieve that without direct NATO support. So unless there is some sort of Black Swan off the wall event that changes everything, I'll continue to state that victory, as you define it, is not going to happen.
     
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  17. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As for victory for the common people, getting to live a normal life,
    that got thrown away as soon as Zelensky decided with the backing
    of Biden to bring in NATO to threaten Russia.

    The Russian leadership was very clear from the start, from 1991,
    that it was no to NATO and yes to neutrality.

    But the military industrial congressional complex wanted their money.
     
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  18. USVet

    USVet Well-Known Member

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    Russia's oil and gas revenue is down 65% since it started its war of aggression and the saved up money has been spent. Now begins the long slow economic decline.
     
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  19. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Well-Known Member

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    :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::bored:

    banderastan is putting women in the trenches. Russia has over a million men at the ready (for occupation), the bulk of which is stationed away from the front.

    NATO can't save them either, even if they entered the war. This isn't some pussified fake nato war going up against goat herders with 'smart bombs', this is a real war on the ground.
     
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  20. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It will probably end like the Winter War ended in Finland. Russia failed at their main objective, and Finns killed tons of Muskovites, so they agreed to stop the war and give Russia small chunks of land so that could save face and both sides declared victory.
     
  21. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A lot of people on this forum are living in the past.
     
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  22. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

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    What's your point? Freedom isn't worth defending? The United States should stop honoring It's treaties and commitments?
     
  23. Bill Carson

    Bill Carson Well-Known Member

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    And what ****ing treaty do we have with banderastan? Freedom? You got the wrong shithole.
     
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  24. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A lot of people don't understand what this war is about.
    Russia wanted Ukraine to declare itself autonomous and neutral.

    US wanted Ukraine to join NATO, eventually.

    So it's easy to compare, N for neutral vs N for NATO.

    If you are neutral and don't threaten the existence of Russia
    then all's well,
    But if you invite in NATO and NATO weapons and threaten
    Russia then there is likely to be a big war, and if you keep
    throwing your forces at the Russian defensive barrier, they will
    get dead.

    Simple choice really.

    I think they got it wrong.
     
  25. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    The war will last as long as China is willing to fund it.
     

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