Might we be seeing indications that Israel is just not PREPARED to deal with terrorists?

Don't get me wrong. I think that Israel was attacked, and they are entitled to seeking punishment for the culprits. I have said many times that if I had to choose sides, undoubtedly I would go with Israel.

Having said that, they DON'T have a right to kill civilians. At this point, what we see goes far beyond "collateral damage". This cannot be attributed to simply an "accident". It looks more like incompetence.

Looking at the attack on the WCK, these were THREE vehicles. So it would correspond to three "mistakes". And the distance between the northernmost vehicle, and the southernmost was one and a half miles. The vehicles were clearly marked. And their activities had been coordinated beforehand with IDF.

If we see episode after episode of "mistakes" that are evident enough to make them visible to the world, how many are happening that DON'T make it to the news?

Look... if somebody attacked my city, and they handed me the most advanced gun in the world... so easy to operate, that I could fire it without shooting myself in the foot, I would be a danger to innocent people. I might be shooting it in anger at everything that moved and looked suspicious. But I don't have the training or capabilities to avoid killing innocent people.

And I think this is what is happening with Israel. We can flood them with the most modern weaponry, and teach them how to use it. But they are simply NOT capable of carrying out the mission of getting at the REAL terrorists.

So if they can't do it... STOP! Stop before any more innocent people get hurt.

I understand the rage in the Israeli people because of the terrorist attack. But they are only making it worse. They will simply HAVE to look for some other solution. Because the military solution is, plain and simple, BEYOND their capability.

This is something that might be tough for Israelis, to accept... but they must!

 

I don't think that the IDF is heavy on having top-down detailed plans with rigid chain of command execution. Instead, they rely heavily on initiative and improvisation by commanders and troops in the field.

They have been given a pretty clear order to destroy Hamas ability to ever attack Israel again.

The commanders and troops are heavily drawn from activated reservists from a cross section of the Jewish Israeli population with the exception of most of the ultra-Orthodox. The various groups have a variety of attitudes towards Palestinians ranging from a willingness to implement the two-state solution to eradicating all non-Jews from Greater Israel.

The improvised actions in the field will reflect the variety of attitudes of the various groups.

 

It certainly looks that way. They need to stop! All they are accomplishing by doing this is converting more and more people around the world against them. Not to mention the innocent people being killed.

It's the Israeli people who need to put a stop to Netanyahu or he'll be starting to get more sympathizers for terrorists around the world.

 

No it doesn't. No one has done a finer job of killing terrorists while limiting collateral damage than the IDF, that includes US, though we had probably done the best, to date, in the battle to clear Mosul.

 

You are not following the news. They are NOT limiting collateral damage.

The IDF has the most modern weaponry. We are all impressed when we see what the weapons can do. But they now need to fact the fact that they are incompetent. They are likely breeding more future terrorists than they kill. They need a new strategy. Not to mention that Netanyahu must go before they turn, not only the population of the Arab world, but that of many western countries against them.

 

That's fake news. They're doing a better job than we did in Mosul and that was the best job by any military in history to that date.

Israel Implemented More Measures to Prevent Civilian Casualties Than Any Other Nation in History.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-imp...ties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613

 

Killing civilians, volunteers, hostages... and even their own soldiers, is not sign of doing a good job. If they implement more measures than any other nation in history, and they don't WORK.... there is only one answer: they're incompetent!

Incompetent people should just stop doing what they are incompetent at. Simple as that!

 

I did a search of your posts on this panel to see if you have:

• Condemned Gaza's invasion of Israel
• The systematic targeting of civilians for rape, torture, beheading.
• Gaza's taking of civilian hostages.
• Demanded Gaza's unconditional surrender.
• Demanded Gaza release all the hostages.

I was unable to find any such posts. Please direct me to them.

 

They are not incompetent, the results speaks for itself: Hamas dismantled down to a handful of effective battalions and the civilian to combatant death ratio at an incredible 1.5 to 1 ratio, unheard of in any kind of a comparable dense urban conflict.

They are, however, green and inexperienced, and in an incredibly difficult environment in which they are being asked to separate non-uniformed combatants and non-combatants with their lives on the line in a castle fortress labyrinth of buildings and tunnels and booby traps, they are making mistakes that are both understandable, predictable, and limited.

 

Why does that matter?

 

Well, there you go.... If you did all that hard work and couldn't find them, that's another example of incompetence like the one I was talking about. Here's a hint: you are looking for the wrong thing. Starting with the fact that "Gaza" didn't do any of those things. Terrorists did!

As I said, if you are incompetent at something, you should stop doing it. In your case, you can solve it with practice (don't bother me until you learn how to do it, though). In Israel's case that won't work because "practice" means people die.

In any case, this thread is not about me. It's about the IDF's incompetence.

 

Not that bullshit again, lol.

 

They do. And they include dead hostages, dead humanitarian workers, dead IDF soldiers at the hands of IDF...

You are confusing two things. One is having the right technology, the other is being competent in using it in the proper way. If you throw a nuclear bomb, you could certainly going to wipe out Hamas from Gaza. But that's not the same as using technology in an effective way. I don't know where you got your numbers, but it wouldn't surprise me if, when they do come out from a trustworthy source, they show that the IDF has killed more civilians than terrorists. That's not being "competent". You don't need to be too competent to use a modern weapon, pointing it more or less in the right direction, and pulling the trigger.

Using civilians for "practice" is not my idea of a good military strategy. If they are too inexperienced for it, they need to stop! It's counterproductive. They are CREATING more terrorists by murdering innocent people who are the mother, father, brother, sister.... of a possible FUTURE terrorist who will grow up learning to hate those who killed their loved ones.

 

Yet the civilian to combatant kill ration is lower Than in any war since the Renaissance. What I find ridiculous is that Biden, are trying to hold Israel to a standard they won't hold Hamas or any of their other preferred combatants to and in a war in which the opponent is notorious for taking shelter among women and children.

 

BS is the opposite of proven and demonstrated facts just so you know.

 

The first ****ing line of the OP says, "Don't get me wrong. I think that Israel was attacked, and they are entitled to seeking punishment for the culprits. I have said many times that if I had to choose sides, undoubtedly I would go with Israel."

And you have the gall to re-vomit your cookie-cutter bullshit pseudoinvestigation into somebody's positions and motives just because they don't give Israel a pass for not showing due care to avoid civilian deaths? Yes. It's bullshit. And here I thought only bots peddled propaganda so mindlessly.

 

So you are unable to direct me to any such posts. Well, I think that tells us what we need to know. Thanks.

 

Can you direct us to any examples, or do you not have any?

 

I don;t give you a pass for a refusing to deal with the lies leftists keep telling on behalf of Hamas. Again as has already been pointed out several times in this very forum Israel has done everything it can to keep the civilian death toll to a minimum. And it is a damn hard task against any enemy that constantly uses there own women and children as cover for their war fighters. Hamas can end the carnage any time the are willing to surrender and release the remaining hostages.

 

I have to give you a pass, as you have been thoroughly blinded by propaganda. Hamas is a criminal organization, but that doesn't mean we should give Israel a pass for also being criminal. Your notion is as ludicrous as cops telling bank robbers that the cops will stop killing tellers when the bank robbers surrender, so it must be the bank robbers fault for cops killing tellers, lol.

 

They aren't. Take of the blinders.

 

Lets take an example. We know that Israel told civilians in the north to flee south in the early stages of the conflict. They told them that's where they would be safe. And yet satellite data shows they dropped 2000 lb bombs... hundreds of them... in the areas they told civilians would be safe. Now, it's possible the civilians weren't the target, but it's unacceptable for them to tell people somewhere is safe, and then soon bomb those areas.

Gaza: Israel dropped hundreds of 2,000-pound bombs, analysis shows | CNN

A Times Investigation Tracked Israel’s Use of One of Its Most Destructive Bombs in South Gaza - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

"
During the first six weeks of the war in Gaza, Israel routinely used one of its biggest and most destructive bombs in areas it designated safe for civilians, according to an analysis of visual evidence by The New York Times.

The video investigation focuses on the use of 2,000-pound bombs in an area of southern Gaza where Israel had ordered civilians to move for safety. While bombs of that size are used by several Western militaries, munitions experts say they are almost never dropped by U.S. forces in densely populated areas anymore.

The Times programmed an artificial intelligence tool to scan satellite imagery of south Gaza for bomb craters. Times reporters manually reviewed the search results, looking for craters measuring roughly 40 feet across or larger. Munitions experts say typically only 2,000-pound bombs form craters of that size in Gaza’s light, sandy soil.

Ultimately, the investigation identified 208 craters in satellite imagery and drone footage. Because of limited satellite imagery and variations in a bomb’s effects, there are likely to have been many cases that were not captured. But the findings reveal that 2,000-pound bombs posed a pervasive threat to civilians seeking safety across south Gaza.

In response to questions about the bomb’s use in south Gaza, an Israeli military spokesman said in a statement to The Times that Israel’s priority was destroying Hamas and “questions of this kind will be looked into at a later stage.” The spokesman also said that the I.D.F. “takes feasible precautions to mitigate civilian harm.”

But U.S. officials have said that Israel should do more to reduce civilian casualties while fighting Hamas.
"

 

More "uninterested". Read my sig! OR, you could just read the OP

 

not in militarily significant numbers for you to have a point. Only an emotional one. Hence why you don’t talk numbers. Ever.

Basic search from countless news sources has numbers of 33,000 reported as late as today. Hamas dead estimates not as late, those numbers go back to February on a basic search. About 12,000 of those 33,000 dead are combatants.

So 12,000 dead Hamas and 21,000 dead civilian. 1.75 ratio, one of the best, if not the best, in any historical example you care to cite.

Which is why you won’t cite any. instead you’re already making a projection argument based on nothing at all. How am I to take that seriously?

Hamas is the one publishing their figures of total dead and they have zero reason to downplay or underestimate. As for israel, I don’t know their methodology but look up a map of what the IDF controls: Hamas doesn’t have much ground left to work with, indicating severe losses to make that a reality, indicating IDF figures to be believable, and I’m not hearing much from any war analysts to suggest otherwise. Are you?

There’s no other place to get experience other than the real world in a real combat environment. What you’re saying is simply unrealistic and flies in the face of everything we know to be true about war in general and a dense urban conflict in particular which is that: it is one of the toughest environments to fight in, the fog of war is real, mistakes happen and loss of civilian and friendly fire incidents occur.

In that respect, there is nothing to indicate the mistakes and friendly fire incidents are anything beyond the norm, if not much better than history shows.

You need to tailor your perspective in more realistic ways imo. If you can’t talk numbers to make your points then, really, there’s nothing much to talk about. It’s just the opinion of someone easily swayed by bad optics

 

You keep making up statistics. We don't KNOW the numbers. We DO know that they are people who did everything right. This is not some bomb that misfired... these are ATTACKS on civilians. Many of who gave every signal possible to show that they were NOT the enemy.

This is not a case of "collateral damage". These were targeted attacks. Mistakes, yes.... You probably can't avoid a rocket going off course because of a wind gust and hitting a hospital. But things like attacking three marked vehicles a mile and a half apart that had been authorize by the IDF. Or killing hostages who took off all their clothes and were waving white flags... things like these are mistakes that can ONLY be attributed to incompetence. And these are only some of the ones that manage to get on the news.

Whatever you want to say, we don't KNOW the statistics. But there are too many of these episodes that indicate that the IDF is not being instructed on proper ways to avoid these casualties.

Why do you insist on this? It's EASY to kill more enemies when you take no care to avoid killing innocent people. Just point and shoot and you might get lucky. But when you DON'T get lucky, what you are doing is making it more likely that the sons, daughters, brothers.... of the innocent people you kill will grow up HATING Israel. Guess how they might choose to express this anger when they're old enough to carry a gun?

There are MANY places you can get experience in learning how to take the minimum precautions to avoid killing innocent people. The IDF simply doesn't care about learning this.