MOD ALERT ~ Israel's Weapons of Mass Destruction ?

Marlowe your quoting a subjective opinion piece in Mondoweiss which quotes further subjective opinions can not establish objective credibiltity. What you have done though is go out and find subjective anti Israel opinions that agree with your own. These opinions are not facts and I will respond to them as I would contend they are misrepresentations.

You quoted this opinion that is based on one individual repeating another individual's subjective opinion:

"Israel has effectively established a de facto global Jewish nationality. "

No of course it hasn't. The Jews of the diaspora including myself to not define ourselves as Israelis so the above statement is nonsensical. Our identity does not come from Israel but in the manner as to how we choose as individuals to self-identify ourselves as Jews. Our identity can be collective or individual and can consist of many components. The definition of Israeli that fast tracks Jews from outside Israel for Israeli citizenship is but one exercise. Not all Jews wish to be Israeli. Not all Jews who support Israel's right to exist like myself wish to be Israeli. I am Canadian. I was born in Canada. My allegiance is first and foremost to Canada.

No Israeli asked me to renounce Canadian citizenship for Israeli citizenship. No I am not part of any global identity controlled by Israel.

Sheer nonsense.

You then quoted this statement:

"Indeed, Israel makes the unique distinction between ‘Jewish nationals’ and ‘Israeli citizens"

The above is not true. Israel does not make that distinction-Jews do. The State of Israel only defines a Jew who wants to become an Israeli citizen as an Israeli if that Jew wishes to apply for citizenship. Until then Israel does not tell me a thing. No I am not a Jewish national. What a ridiculous thing to suggest Israel would say. Israel has full diplomatic relations with Canada. It considers me a Canadian citizen and would continue to do so until such time as I chose to be an Israeli citizen. This quote is absolute nonsensical fabrication. No Israel as a state does not call me a Jewish national.

"..often explained by Zionists in terms similar to that of Professor Gil Troy, who posits, “The French have France, Germans have Germany, the Dutch have the Netherlands, Jews have Israel.”

The above comment means that if a Jew wants to define his Jewish identity through a national entity (political sufferage) they have the option of becoming an Israeli citizen. However Zionism does not state I am not a Jew if I am not Israeli any more than Italy says someone is not Italian if they don't live in Italy.

You clearly do not understand the above or understand that the Jewish identity is not simply based on religion but on many other components as well-to be considered a jew for Israeli citizenship I do not have to be an Orthodox Jew or practice Judaism in a way imposed by Rabbinical courts-Israel protects me as a Jew if I exercise citizenhip as an Israeli but it does not define how I worship or express my identity as a Jew other than to protect me from hostile non Jews if and only if I asked for that protection. I think Israel might go so far as to feel it would have a moral responsibility to rescue me from terrorists if it had the opportunity but not just because I am Jewish-it would do the same for any innocent civilian Jew or not who is NOT Israeli.

Now you provided this comment:


"Troy’s assertion is misleading. Muslims residing in France are free to adopt the national French identity. However, Muslims residing in Israel cannot assume the national Jewish identity."

Your comment is illogical and makes no sense. The manner in which you use Muslim refers to religion.No Muslims do not adopt Catholicism or Christianity in France and since it is a democratic state they can be both a Muslim religiously and choose to be a French citizen nationally.

French identity is not simply based on nationality. It is based on a long and lengthy history including Catholicism but many other components that go to build that identity.

A Muslim in Israel like a Muslim in France, is availed of Israeli citizenship. The Supreme Court of Israel has upheld their right to own land and receive compensation for land. They elect municipal and federal political representatives. There is a Muslim cabinet Minister. Muslims in Israel are free to practice their religion and have specialized Muslim religious courts to deal with their family law issues.

It is precisely because Israelis a democratic state, the Muslims who chose to remain in Israel were granted citizenship and have the highest living of any Muslims of the Middle East. So yes they can and do avail themselves of the Israeli identity. No they would not avail themselves of the Jewish religious identity-why would they-they are Muslims-like Muslims of France no one says they must be Christian or Jewish to be either a French or Israeli citizen. Your convaluted statement misunderstands the difference between being an Israeli citizen and a Muslim or Jewish Israeli just as it is erroneous in assuming a Muslim has to give up his religion to become French. Nonsense.

You mistake France or Israel with Sharia law nations which deem only Muslims to be full citizens of their state. France and Israel seperate religion from state-in France's case, the country does not define Muslims as inferior because of their religion. In Israel, Muslims are not defined as lesser citizens as Jews or Christians are in Muslim states.

Let ys be crystal clear. A Jew can not own land in a Sharia law nation. They must do business with Muslims through other Muslims. They can not testify in court either and that is because Jews are considered incapable of telling the truth. Jews can not avail themselves of free access to travel. They are kept under house arrest in Iran and constantly threatened as Israeli spies simply for being Jews. Christians in Sudan, Nigeria, Egypt, Syria and Iran to name but 4 countries have been viciously mass murdered and beaten. So have Bahaiis, Berbers, Kurds, Assyrians, atheists, Zoroastreans, Hindus, Buddists, on and on.

Yes Israeli Muslims do avail themselves of Israeli society and culture. They are very much a contributor to it. For that matter Jews from Muslim nations (Tsfardics or Mizrahi Jews) bring with them cultural components influenced by the Muslim nations they came from-for example the music, poetry, art and cooking is similiar as is their styles of architecture and love of certain textiles and embroidery. They share the same cultural styles as to ceramics and crafts.

So your assertion Muslims of Israel can not avail themselves of "Jewish" identity is false. Jewish identity in the context you used it only refers to religion. If you are referring to Israeli society you are dead wrong. Israel came about because certain Muslims donated land and brave Muslims called Beduin Arabs were some of the most heroic soldiers in the Israeli Defence Force. Muslims are commemorated like Christians as righteous gentiles for helping Jews flee to Israel for protection.

The fact as a Jew I can get fast tracked as a citizen of Israel does not mean I get better rights than a Muslim Israeli. Nonsense.

The discrimination that does go on in Israel comes about not because you are a Muslim, Jew or Christian, but from whether you joined the Israeli military. You can opt out as a Jew, Christian or Muslim and if you do that, it may mean you do not have security clearance required for certain jobs but not based on your religion but because of your lack of security clearance.

Finally the Israeli state does not favour Jewish identity. Nonsense. The laws forbid discrimination against Muslims and Christians based on religious views. This is precisely why Israel pays rent because its government buildings are built on Christian church lands-so it pays rent to those churches. Israel when it liberated Jerusalem has allowed Chrisians and Muslims full access to worship on any site. However Muslims will not allow Jews or Christians into certain areas causing tension. The Muslim leaders in Jerusalem do not recognize Christian or Jewish religious access or rites.

You need to stop quoting anti Israel opinion pieces and travel to Israel and find out what the real world is about.

Israel has over 100 human rights and free legal organizations defending the legal rights of Muslim Israelis and they have won many cases in
court. Muslims have all the rights in Israel Jews were never allowed in Christian Europe or Muslim nations.

Israel was created to protect Jews but that protection contrary to the opinion pieces you quote does not simply discriminate in favour of anyone who is Jewish. Nonsense. The State still is not even sure how to define a Jew. The very laws of Israel prevent it from
discriminating against Muslims without having free state funded lawyers advocate and win cases on behalf of Muslims.

Your attempts to pass yourself off as an authority on Zionism or Israeli laws or the Jewish identity by relying on writers who have no clue what the difference between a Jew, an Israeli and a Zionist is, are pointless. Stop repeating opinions you agree with and go find out how the laws of Israel work and what Zionism actually is. It has nothing to do with defining Israelis as religious Jews and never did.

The minority of settlers on the West Bank who call themselves Jewish Zionists are not synonomous with Jews or Israelis. They are no more representative of us than terrorist extremists like Hamas or Hezbollah are of all Muslims.


Marlow quoted this from the Mondoweiss article:

".., amendment 9 of section 7A of The Basic Law: The Knesset, 1958, prevents candidates from seeking election if they contest “…the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people."

The above law applies to Jewish, Christian, Muslim, atheist, Bahaii, Druze, etc., Israelis-all Israelis.

The law was created because Ultra-orthodox Jews who do not believe in the state of Israel's existence were running for office and demanding the state be dismantled. It has been used on as many Jews as it has Muslims or anyone else.

However if Marlow made an attempt to find out the actual laws of Israel he/she would know this amendment is no longer enforced by the Supreme Court of Israel and this is precisely why Muslim Israelis as well as Jewish Israelis who are anti state of Israel as a Jewish state have been elected and state their views openly on the house floor.

 

Hmmmmm - So , are you claiming that only your OPINIONs is factual and every other Jew/Israeli opinions are not facts and misrepresentations ?

You've NOT provided any substantiated facts - just YOUR OPINION.

A very affective + influential minority - playing an important role in Israeli Govt.'s policies regarding settlement expansion establish facts on stolen Palestinian lands.

Frankly I'm more inclined to listen to men like Uri Avnery , than a Canadian Jewish poster on a political forum.

See this :
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/events/1363644733

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Not entirely true . Go check on the Jewish rights and of Iranian Jews.

For you info , I've visit Israel twice - (Tourist ) but long enough to see what goes on. I've soon learnt how I've been deceived and lied to by our media with its pro-Zionist Israel slants. ---- No, I' do not attempt to pass myself off as an authority on Zionism, I know enough to have turnED me from indifference to an Anti-Zionist .

Utter dreck - BS - That 's the sort of lie which most Israelis no longer repeat.

"US, in annual report, raps Israeli discrimination against non-Jews, non-Orthodox Judaism"

Israeli government policy contributes to the generally free practice of religion, “although governmental and legal discrimination against non-Jews and non-Orthodox streams of Judaism continued,” the US State Department charged in its annual assessment of religious freedom around the w

The report, released Monday, also cited instances of discrimination based on religious affiliation, belief, or practice, stating that “Some individuals and groups were responsible for discriminatory practices against Israeli-Arab Muslims, Christians, and non-Orthodox Jews.



“Relations among religious and ethnic groups — between Jews and non-Jews, Muslims and Christians, Arabs and non-Arabs, secular and religious Jews, and among the different streams of Judaism — were strained,” the report noted.

The assessment also addressed the situation in the West Bank, stating that “the government’s closure policies and the separation barrier restricted the ability of Palestinian Muslims and Christians to reach some places of worship and to practice their religious rites, particularly in Jerusalem.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-egypts-islamists-must-respect-minorities/

•There are more than 30 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel. directly or indirectly, based solely on their ethnicity, rendering them second or third class citizens in their own homeland.
•93% of the land in Israel is owned either by the state or by quasi-governmental agencies, such as the Jewish National Fund, that discriminate against non-Jews. Palestinian citizens of Israel face significant legal obstacles in gaining access to this land for agriculture, residence, or commercial development.

•More than seventy Palestinian villages and communities in Israel, some of which pre-date the establishment of the state, are unrecognized by the government, receive no services, and are not even listed on official maps. Many other towns with a majority Palestinian population lack basic services and receive significantly less government funding than do majority-Jewish towns.

•Since Israel’s founding in 1948, more than 600 Jewish municipalities have been established, while not a single new Arab town or community has been recognized by the state.

•Israeli government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews and not to Arabs, one factor in causing the Palestinians of Israel to suffer the lowest living standards in Israeli society by all socio-economic indicators.
•Government funding for Arab schools is far below that of Jewish schools. According to data published in 2004, the government provides three times as much funding to Jewish students than it does to Arab students.
•According to the 2009 US State Department International Religious Freedom Report, “Many of the national and municipal policies in Jerusalem were designed to limit or diminish the non-Jewish population of Jerusalem.”
•In October 2010, the Knesset approved a bill allowing smaller Israeli towns to reject residents who do not suit “the community’s fundamental outlook”, based on sex, religion, and socioeconomic status. Critics slammed the move as an attempt to allow Jewish towns to keep Arabs and other non-Jews out.

•The so-called “Nakba Bill” bans state funding for groups that commemorate the tragedy that befell Palestinians during Israel’s creation in 1948, when approx. 725,000 Palestinian Arabs were ethnically cleansed to make way for a Jewish majority state.

Ilan Pappe talks about why Palestinians are second class citizens of Israel at best:

“MY BOOK The Forgotten Palestinians: A History of the Palestinians in Israel examines this at length, but there are three levels of discrimination.

First, there’s the legal level. And in Israel, this is carried out by separating the community into two kinds–those who serve in the army and those who don’t serve in the army. By law, those who don’t serve in the army don’t have the same property rights, the same rights in terms of national security, insurance, welfare benefits, accommodation in universities and so forth.

Now, you can say it’s not racist because it’s not based on national identity, but Jews who do not serve in the army are not affected by this law. So in practice, these laws only apply to the Arab citizens of Israel–who, by a tacit agreement with the government, don’t serve in the army. So that’s a very legal basis, very clear legislation.

Then there is the semi-legalistic, more-gray area of regulations. Israel still has intact a set of mandatory emergency regulations that can be enacted at any given moment. These regulations are enacted every now and then, and then only against the Palestinian community, which gives a military government absolute control over the lives of people.

You can be arrested without trial, you can be distanced by force from your home, you can be expelled, your home can be demolished, the area in which you live can be cordoned off and declared a “militarily closed area” without any outside world intervention. And there, the military government can do whatever it wants.

The last time Israelis used these emergency regulations was when they implemented a newly passed law that Palestinians from Israel who married Palestinians from the West Bank could not live in Israel, they had to live in the West Bank. So they expelled these couples by force by declaring certain Arab villages in the center of Israel literally closed areas. And they used that to remove them.

The third level is the one that regulates daily contact between Palestinian citizens and Israeli authorities–the tax collector, the policeman, the judge. I will just give you one example, but there are many others. Even Israeli research shows that when Palestinians and Jews are brought before a court, Palestinian defendants who committed the same offense as a Jewish defendant will always get a stiffer sentence.
-----

Do you want more FACTS ?

"Increasing intolerance for dissent & diversity in Israel

•In September 2011 a survey found that a third of Israeli Jews don’t consider Arab citizens to be real Israelis.

•According to a February 2011 survey, 52% of Israeli Jews would be willing to limit press freedoms to protect the state's image, while 55% would accept limits on the right to oppose the government's "defense policy.”

•Also in September 2011, Dov Lior, the chief rabbi of settlements in Hebron and Kiryat Arba, told a conference that Arabs are “wolves,” “savages,” and “evil camel riders.”

•A poll done by the Israel Democracy Institute and released in January 2011 found that nearly half of Israeli Jews don't want to live next door to an Arab.

•In January 2011 the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper reported that civics teachers around the country were complaining of rampant, virulent anti-Arab racism amongst their Jewish students. One teacher said, "When we have a discussion in class about equal rights, the class immediately gets out of control… The students attack us, the teachers, for being leftist and anti-Semitic, and say that all the Arab citizens who want to destroy Israel should be transferred." Another said: "We're not talking about a minority, or children from families that have extreme political views, but about normal children who are afflicted with ignorance… The political discourse in recent years has given them the legitimacy to be prejudiced."

•In November 2010 the chief rabbi of the town of Safed, Shmuel Eliyahu, issued a ruling forbidding Jews from renting property to Arabs. Eliyahu had previously advocated hanging the children of terrorists.


•In December 2010, dozens of municipal chief rabbis on the government payroll signed a letter supporting Eliyahu and his decree prohibiting Jews from renting property to non-Jews. One of the signatories, Rabbi Yosef Scheinen, head of the Ashdod Yeshiva (religious school), stated, "Racism originated in the Torah… The land of Israel is designated for the people of Israel."

•In December 2010, the wives of 30 prominent rabbis signed an open letter calling on Jewish women not to date or work with Arabs. The letter stated: "For your sake, for the sake of future generations, and so you don't undergo horrible suffering, we turn to you with a request, a plea, a prayer. Don't date non-Jews, don't work at places that non-Jews frequent, and don't do national service with non-Jews.”

According to a September 2010 poll, half of Israeli Jewish students don't want Arabs in their classrooms, while an earlier survey found about the same number oppose equal rights for Arabs.

•In September 2010, the spiritual leader of the Shas party (which sits in PM Benjamin Netanyahu’s coalition government), Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, declared that non-Jews were created to “serve” Jews, stating that: "Goyim [non-Jews] were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world - only to serve the People of Israel... Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat. That is why gentiles were created.”
•In August 2010, on the eve of peace talks in Washington, Yosef delivered a sermon describing Palestinians as "evil, bitter enemies" and calling on god to make them "perish from this world" by striking them with a plague.

•In 2001, Yosef, delivered a sermon in which he stated: "It is forbidden to be merciful to [Arabs]. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable…The Lord shall return the Arabs' deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world.”

•In August 2010, Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira, head of a state-funded religious school in the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar, published a book that condoned the murder of non-Jewish children on the grounds that they may grow up to pose a threat to the state, writing that non-Jews are "uncompassionate by nature" and attacks against them "curb their evil inclination.” Several other prominent rabbis subsequently endorsed the book.

•In July, 2009, Israel's Housing Minister, Ariel Atlas, warned against the "spread" of Israel's Arab population and said that Arabs and Jews shouldn't live together, stating: "if we go on like we have until now, we will lose the Galilee. Populations that should not mix are spreading there. I don't think that it is appropriate for [Jews and Arabs] to live together."

•In the aftermath of Operation Cast Lead, Israel's devastating three-week military assault against Gaza that killed more than 1300 Palestinians in the winter of 2008-9, the Israeli daily Haaretz reported that Israeli army units had been printing t-shirts depicting disturbing, violent images such as dead Palestinian babies, Palestinian mothers weeping on their children's graves, a gun aimed at a child, bombed-out mosques, and a pregnant Palestinian woman with a target superimposed on her belly and the caption, “1 shot, 2 kills”. Another showed a Palestinian baby, growing into a boy and then an armed adult, with the inscription, “No matter how it begins, we'll put an end to it."

http://imeu.net/news/article0021536.shtml





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Marlowe; et al,

First, I took the time to read the entire article. It is a frivolous argument with no substance to it.

(OBSERVATION)

The State of Israel was labeled a "Jewish State" by the UN, not Israel. Officially it is derived from Part I, Section B, Paragraph 4, and Part II, Section "B", of General Assembly Resolution 181(II) 29 November 1947; which set the original conditions and boundaries for the "Jewish State" (unnamed) under the Partition Plan. This was done in accordance with the very first agreements by the Allied Powers to establish a "Jewish National Home."

Subsequently, The Jewish Agency declared Independence pursuant to the Partition Plan [GA/RES/181(II)] as agreed upon via the implementation through the Security Council. The Declaration of Independence specifically says: "RECOGNITION AS PROVISIONAL COUNCIL GOVERNMENT UNDER PART ONE B FOUR OF RESOLUTION OF GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON NOVEMBER 29TH 1947" --- and --- “ON NOVEMBER 29 1947 GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF UNITED NATIONS ADOPTED RESOLUTION FOR ESTABLISHMENT OF INDEPENDENT JEWISH STATE IN PALESTINE."

So, if I missed your point, I hope you can see my confusion. I'm just a poor little Sicilian Boy trying to grasp these hard concepts. So, what did the Israelis do that is in question --- specifically? It appears to me that the State of Israel used the same legal language, and the same doctrine as the General Assembly and the Security Council. So I am lost, what is the dilemma here? What Rule of Law did they not apply?

BY VIRTUE OF NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT OF JEWISH PEOPLE AND OF RESOLUTION OF GENERAL ASSEMBLY HEREBY PROCLAIM ESTABLISHMENT OF JEWISH STATE IN PALESTINE TO BE CALLED ISRAEL.​

BEHALF PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL
MOSHE SHERTOK FOREIGN SECRETARY​

This sort of fits with the Professor Gil Troy, who posits, “The French have France, Germans have Germany, the Dutch have the Netherlands, Jews have Israel.”

Most Respectfully,
R

 

I was also , up until a few years ago , like you, confused
more so coz my parents generation was most sympathetic towards Post WW2 European Jews.


A considerable amount of information has since been made public knowledge and that to several enlightened Western + Israeli historians , we've come to know much more abt info previously, for whatever reasons, hidden from us.

You ask

IN a nut shell :


I suggest you try your best reading as much as poss. examining both side of the dispute TRy getting to the facts behind the conflict from BOTH SIDES ;

At this point I wont tell which sites to read , its best you find your own way ;
The Net is a wonderful source info, use it , weighing up both sides of the conflict, and arrive at your own conclusions.


.. TRy your utmost to keep an open mind , until you know the truth..

.

 

Marlowe I will reply to some of your comments:

"So , are you claiming that only your OPINIONs is factual and every other Jew/Israeli opinions are not facts and misrepresentations ?"

No not at all.

You stated:

"You've NOT provided any substantiated facts - just YOUR OPINION."

At times yes. If you make an effort to provide objective information I will counter it with objective information.

"Frankly I'm more inclined to listen to men like Uri Avnery , than a Canadian Jewish poster on a political forum."

Of course. You are more inclined to listen to someone who states the same opinion as you but are you suggesting my opinion is unique only to me? Lol. Come now. You would not read anyone's comments but those that conform to your subjective opinions. You have already stated so in previous posts.

"Not entirely true . Go check on the Jewish rights and of Iranian Jews. "

I have provided legal counsel to organizations assisting Jews, Bahaiis, Christians, gay-lesbians, communists, trade unionists, journalists, feminists, Kurds, and trade union activists leaving Iran or trapped in Iran. So this I can tell you. With all the above groups they live in fear and constant danger of being arrested and taken to prison to be tortured simply because of who they are not what they think.

If you think Jews own land in Iran please provide me a land title because it would be interesting to say the least.

You stated:

"For you info , I've visit Israel twice - (Tourist ) but long enough to see what goes on. "

Lol. Right. So that is the basis of your expertise on Israeli laws, Jewish religion, etc. That must have been quote the study you conducted on your visits as a "tourist'.
You stated:

"I've soon learnt how I've been deceived and lied to by our media with its pro-Zionist Israel slants. "

Right you saw the light and the Joo media conspiracy right? So how do you explain if we Jews control the world media with a pro Zionist slant how the inter-net is inundated with anti-Semitic sites and articles. How do you explain Al Jazeer, etc.? Seems to me if we were going to control the media we would do a better job of polluting the inter-net and controlling those anti Israel and anti Jewish opinions don't you think?

" No, I' do not attempt to pass myself off as an authority on Zionism, I know enough to have turnED me from indifference to an Anti-Zionist ."

You do realize you have just stated you have a closed mind? You do realize you have expressed ignorance by saying you think you know enough about Zionism to not push yourself further to ask more questions and in so doing have passed yourself off as an authority on anti Zionism? What was your point other than to say you have a closed mind?

You stated I was full of bs because I stated as a Jew going to Israel the state does not give me more rights than a non Jew in Israel other than I can get fast tracked to citizenship.

You would have known that if in fact you had been to Israel which is why I now must question did you really go there as a tourist? Because if you did, how do you explain the taxes Jewish Israelis pay? Are you suggesting they are different than what Muslim Israelis pay? Oh go on show me. Explain to me why Non Jewish Israelis have the highest standard of living of Muslims in the Middle East and the highest standard of education and medical treatments and have a birth rate far higher than the Jewish one if they are being oppressed? Can you tell me how they are able to elect Muslim politicians? Can you tell me why they refuse to give up their
Israeli citizenship? Would you know where to start or is simply saying I am full of it? I will say it again, Israel is no utopia. It has numerous problems but its problems are encountered by all its citizens and Jewish Israelis face the same problems Muslim and Christian Israelis do for the same reasons. I lived there. I did not live in luxury. I lived on a farm. I scrubbed toilets and painted trees. I peeled potatoes. No one held out a red carpet for me because I was a Jew.

In fact the Beduin Arabs I studied were treated with far more respect by Israeli Jews than me, lol and rightfully so. If anything I was looked down upon by Israeli natives, (Sabras) Jewish or Muslim because I was considered soft from having come from Canada which again I understood.

You stated there are reports that rap Israeli discrimination against non Jews. That's interesting. Who do you think made those reports and why? It is precisely because Israel is a democracy and funds such criticism they can openly work on making things better.The alleged discrimination you talk of is complex. If someone does not pay their taxes, they do not get as many municipal services and this is a huge problem in Muslim towns where people do not pay taxes. They do not pay taxes not because they are anti Israel but because of a cultural
difference in how they view the role of the state-they just do not like taxes no matter where they live. Palestine's Authority has the same problem. So do many Arab nations.

You stated:

"Israeli government policy contributes to the generally free practice of religion, “although governmental and legal discrimination against non-Jews and non-Orthodox streams of Judaism continued,” the US State Department charged in its annual assessment of religions.

First off the US State Department didn't charge it. It asserted it. So do Israeli Jews and many members of the Knesset. It is an open criticism and its probably quite true, yes. What you also forgot to mention is it also discriminates against Jews for the exact same reasons. Did you forget that? Was that a deliberate slip? You do realize as a Reform Jew I face the same issues as Muslims and Christians? Of course you knew that-I mean you have been to Israel right?

The reports you mentioned stated "some groups" engage in discrimination. It did not state all Israelis.

Oh but wait you did mention:

“Relations among religious and ethnic groups — between Jews and non-Jews, Muslims and Christians, Arabs and non-Arabs, secular and religious Jews, and among the different streams of Judaism — were strained,” the report noted.

Do you notice it refers to tensions between Jews as well? If anything you are showing a problem all of the religions have and its not simply focused on non Jews? So your attempt to show its directed at only non Jews you do realize has been shot down by you?

You stated:

"The assessment also addressed the situation in the West Bank, stating that “the government’s closure policies and the separation barrier restricted the ability of Palestinian Muslims and Christians to reach some places of worship and to practice their religious rites, particularly in Jerusalem.”

Ooops you forgot it also does the same to Jews. You also forgot to mention the same report and other reports indicate there are more restrictions against Jews and Christians in Jerusalem my Muslims than vice versa and the restrictions are not absolute prohibition of visitation by Israel against Muslims just delays due to security checks. However in reverse Muslims impose an absolute ban on Jews and Christians.

You also forgot to mention that there is an on-going religious council designed to mediate these issues and the Muslim religious figures boycott it as they do not consider Jews or Christians capable of having the capacity to be on the same level as them in discussing access issues. You would know that of course because when you travelled to Jerusalem you would know what sites non Muslims were not allowed in while Muslims demand full access of Christian and Jewish sites.

You quote that:

"There are more than 30 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel".

The above is clearly incorrect. You mean Muslim Israelis or Arab Israelis. They do not refer to themselves as Palestinians and made it clear they are Israelis and do not want to be Palestinians or called Palestinians. The laws the report claims discriminate against them of course discriminate just as much against non Muslim Israelis as they do Muslim Israelis. Again you would know that when you visited Israel and saw how what they were and how they restrict access to all equally.

You stated:

"93% of the land in Israel is owned either by the state or by quasi-governmental agencies, such as the Jewish National Fund, that discriminate against non-Jews."

The above is probably accurate. There is a huge debate as to whether the Jewish National Fund has violated the land rights of Arab Israeli citizens and Arab Israeli citizens have won legal title to land disputes in the Israeli Supreme Court.

" Palestinian citizens of Israel face significant legal obstacles in gaining access to this land for agriculture, residence, or commercial development."

If you mean Muslim or Arab citizens of Israel, yes they have. But yes they have been able to avail themselves of the legal system of Israel to defend their rights precisely because while the system is imperfect it recognizes the rights of Arab citizens equally to Jewish ones on land issues.

'More than seventy Palestinian villages and communities in Israel, some of which pre-date the establishment of the state, are unrecognized by the government, receive no services, and are not even listed on official maps.'

The above was debunked as a myth. It is impossible to have any town or village in Israel remain unknown. That would be absurd in such a small country. However there are small Arab villages that will not pay municipal taxes and so yes they lag behind in infrastructure and that is a serious issue and it arises based on a cultural difference in how these people see the function of government and taxes. This problem is identical in Muslim countries who have failed to be able to collect taxes and find their cities in trouble as well for the exact same reasons its not specific to Israel.

You stated:

"Then there is the semi-legalistic, more-gray area of regulations[/B]. Israel still has intact a set of mandatory emergency regulations that can be enacted at any given moment. These regulations are enacted every now and then, and then only against the Palestinian community..."

No they in fact apply against all Israelis equally.

"You can be arrested without trial, you can be distanced by force from your home, you can be expelled, your home can be demolished, the area in which you live can be cordoned off and declared a “militarily closed area” without any outside world intervention. And there, the military government can do whatever it wants."

Yes its possible and it has happened with people charged with terrorist activities.

You stated:

"The last time Israelis used these emergency regulations was when they implemented a newly passed law that Palestinians from Israel who married Palestinians from the West Bank could not live in Israel, they had to live in the West Bank. So they expelled these couples by force by declaring certain Arab villages in the center of Israel literally closed areas. And they used that to remove them."

They in fact used citizenship laws no different than the ones in Muslim countries that prohibit Jews from marrying Muslims and becoming citizens of those Arab nations.

Those citizenship laws also exist in over 123 other nations not just Israel.

You stated:

"Do you want more FACTS ?"

Are those facts or opinions? Do you know the difference?

I will fully admit though that Israel is imperfect, has problems, and needs to reform many areas of its laws.

Of course.

Now is your point Israel has problems or that you feel since it has problems, it gives you the right to hate Jews, Israelis, etc., and/or destroy Israel?

It is fair to criticize Israel. Go ahead. Israel is a free and open state. Criticize it. Hold it accountable. Its citizens do the same reasons you do.

However if you want to use the above to justify blowing it up and hating Jews, Israelis,people who support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish nation, then I have a right to challenge you as a hate monger. Pointing out weakness and problems yes, demanding some's death for it, no.

 

Sorry - I;ve got a life + several other interests , so cant deal with all your questions I'll answer one for now and perhaps at a later date deal with the rest

see this :


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5367892.stm

......

 

Glad to see you turning around in your view of how Jews are being oppressed in Muslim Countries Marlowe and showing us how they are.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5367892.stm

This must really rile you

Wait a minute, why was he not hanged for this condenation?

Yep, the lies from the usual suspects in the west and Israel

Hmm, does Israel allow Muslim Iranians to visit Israel?

 

The article below repudiates the assertions that the remaining Jews in Iran live in freedom.

http://newsflavor.com/world/middle-east/persecuted-iranian-jews/


http://haitiholocaustsurvivors.word...an-continuities-and-changes-by-meir-litvak-2/

http://www.academia.edu/447950/Anti-Semitism_and_anti-Zionism_in_Iran


It is absurd for someone to attempt to state Jews live freely in Iran.

The state prohibits a Jewish Iranian from saying anything construed as being friendly to the state of Israel and has officially stated the holocaust never happened.

The state held a world conference and invited neo Nazis from around the world to engage in a symposium spewing anti Semitism and anti holocaust denial views.

The state sponsored and held a world cartoon contest to see who could make the nastiest anti semitic cartoon.

The state regularly runs shows on its t.v. denying the holocaust and portraying Jews in an anti semitic manner.

The state endorses and publishes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and teaches it and holocaust denial as part of its curriculum.

The state prohibits Jews from contacting or travelling to Israel or contacting anyone Jew or not considered a friend of Israel.

The state prohibits Jews from obtaining passports, travel, business abroad.

The state has the full authority and routinely arrests Jews and questions them as to their political views as a warning to the Jewish community.

For those of you who think quoting a BBC article is sufficient proof to deny Iran is a facist regime using Shiite Islam as the pretext for this facism, all I can say is speak to an Iranian who left.

 

Truth and Justice you are going to have to do better than that.

It is absurd for you or anyone else to hold out Iran as a state model of tolerance for Jews when it has among other things:

1-prohibited Jewish Iranian\ from saying anything construed as being friendly to the state of Israel;

2-has officially stated the holocaust never happened;

3-held a world conference and invited neo Nazis from around the world to engage in a santi Semitism and anti holocaust denial;

4-sponsored and held a world cartoon contest to see who could make the nastiest anti-semitic cartoon;

5-regularly runs shows on its state controlled t.v. and radio commentaries, editorials, and stories denying the holocaust and portraying Jews in an anti semitic manner;

6-endorses and publishes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and teaches it and holocaust denial as part of its school curriculum;

7-prohibits Jews from contacting or travelling to Israel or contacting anyone Jew or not considered a friend of Israel;

8-prohibits Jews from obtaining passports, travel;

9- routinely arrests Jews and questions them as to their political views as a warning to the Jewish community.

Please explain how a state that uses its media to incite anti Semitism world wide is a
place of freedom for Jews. You don't think Jews of Iran listen to these broadcasts and live in fear?

www.adl.org/anti-semitism/united-states/c/press-tv-iran.html

 

www.adl seriously, not biased at all?

Anyway how about
http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html

 

Of course it's going to be a happy Jew reporting because if he were not he would be in jail alongside the reporter and publisher.

"But there are legal problems for Jews in Iran - if one member of a Jewish family converts to Islam he can inherit all the family's property. "

" Over the centuries there have been sporadic purges, pogroms and forced conversions to Islam as well as periods of peaceful co-existence. "

It's only Afterdinnerjacket, not the regime he is complaining about and, it hardly would go over well with the western media to have a completely sanitized view on Iran and the Iranians, who ultimately go over the piece prior to publication allow this to bed said in order to make the rest believable to sheeple who actually believe this slop.

How much I wonder.

I don't see many articles about repression of Jews in present day France or Belgium. I do see articles about how they are viewed as second class citizens in Iran though.

I'm sure that he spoke clearly into the microphone in front of the secret police.

"Iran remains to be one of the worst places in the Middle East with regard to women’s, rights, freedom of expression and other fundamental human rights set in the Universal Human Rights Declaration"

Nope, from Wiki, Freedom House, HRW, Amnesty, Human Rights House and a host more.

Course she can. If she couldn't it never would have hit the press and be permitted to be publicized.

Yep. They'd better make sure Israel doesn't stamp their passport though or else they may face some pretty tough questions upon returning home.

Till the next " sporadic purges, pogroms and forced conversions to Islam"

 

Did you look at the Israel part of your link?

IDF urged to punish soldier who deliberately shot, wounded photographer

Israeli authorities urged to release Palestinian cartoonist

Palestinian journalists at the mercy of arbitrary Israeli justice

Then you bring in HRW, Amnesty and Human rights house !!! Again, did you look at the Israeli entries of fame? Or do these sites only apply to Iran.....

 

Apparently I concentrated on Iran as that is the subject of the thread so, please take another thread off topic.

 

Well, no, the thread is about Israel. You introduced the link that had more articles about Israel's treatment of journalists than that of Iran's treatment.of journalists and your "side" brought in the treatment of Jews in Iran ("A Jew can not own land in a Sharia law nation") into the thread. The fact that your links provided more facts against Israel's policies is not my fault.

 

Silly me



Anyhow,

You can say whatever you wish but Iran is certainly not free or, well endowed with oddles of human rights compared to Israel.