New Chinese Nuclear Threat to US

Sorry pal. My dad was on the planning board about Nuke use or invasion concerning Japan... he did the evaluation and planniing... you are just another civilian that doesn't know apples from Space shuttles. What expertise do you have? I Commanded a nuclear capable Heavy Artillery Battery (M110A2) in Germany in the 1980's B Battery. 2d Battalion, 5th Field Artillery Battery, 41st FA Brigade.

I am certified "Nuclear Fire Planner". You don't know squat. Stick to what you know... gay rights and transgender issues.

 

There was a word in the Japanese statement that we misinterpreted. I am not saying that Japan surrendered, but what I am saying is that that one word is what led to the catastrophic outcome. That word was "mokusatsu" and we quite literally took it literally.

https://www.thenationalnews.com/business/misunderstood-word-may-have-led-to-catastrophic-outcome-1.10630#:~:text=According to the US National,and satsu is "kill".

It was a secondary reason. And even then, during the Potsdam Conference, we were already beginning to try and outsmart Stalin on the future of Europe. But history is never as simplistic as you may want it to appear.

 

I don't see how their use of the word led to a catastrophic outcome. We did not nuke them because they used that word. Had they wanted to talk to us about surrender, we would have been happy to talk to them.

Unfortunately they were only willing to talk after both atomic bombs had already been used. They did manage to avoid subsequent atomic bombings however.

Not really. The fact that we wanted the atomic bombs to intimidate Stalin does not mean that this is why we dropped them on Japan.

We were right to do this. Stalin was bad news.

 

- The united states had cracked Japanese telegram codes so they were privy to all of their internal dialogue which detailed how they were trying to broker a peace deal with Russia to help secure something other than an "unconditional surrender" which they felt put their Emperor at risk of being tried for war crimes.
- The state of the Japanese Navy was that it was obliterated by this time. So they had nothing left to fight with. Every aircraft carrier had been sunk or disabled and all their battleships were gone.
- In the air, Japan had a shortage of bombers/fighters and fuel to keep them in the air. At this point they were relegated to simple suicide missions.
- America was pretty much allowed to bomb Japan carte blanche without any resistance.
- While an invasion was being planned, that's not to suggest that an invasion was imminent. Truman wrote in his diary on the June 17th "Shall we invade Japan proper or shall we bomb and blockade?". And this was before he knew about the Trinity tests or knowing he had a bomb.

So what you have here at the time was the United States fully aware that Japan is trying to search for a way to surrender without harm to their Emperor. As well as a Japan military that couldn't really do much. A simple blockade would have sufficed. We didn't need to nuke children.

 

Also of note;

In a meeting months before the bombing of Hiroshima, the Target Committee(the group who decided the bombing targets for the Atom bomb) headed by General Leslie Groves who was also in charge of the Manhattan Project. And the minutes of the meetings of the Target Comittee

Gives you an insight as to the thinking regarding the choice of location and the intended use of the bomb. On may 10th for example;


"Making the initial use sufficiently SPECTACULAR for the importance of the weapon to be INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED when publicity on it is released."

So beyond using these bombs as a "terror bomb" as a means to break the will of the Japanese, they absolutely wanted the rest of the world to see this weapon and be in awe of it's power.

More receipts for you to deny it's intended use.

 

The warrior spirit of Japan was still alive and well, even if weapons were few. A determined populace fighting tooth and nail to the death is a formidable enemy. North Korea had no aircraft carriers. North Vietnam had no aircraft carriers. The Taliban had no aircraft or carriers.

Before Hiroshima no war in history had ever been won from the air. Unoccupied enemy territory remained ENEMY TERRITORY until it was occupied. WWII in the Pacific remains the only war ever won from the air... and it took a nuke.

 

I Commanded a nuclear capable Artillery Battery in Germany. That list of "considerations" is exactly what we still look at when conducting "Nuclear Fire Planning". I find a bit amazing since they had almost no knowledge of the effects of altitude and radiological effects. Thanks. Great read.

 

I just detailed to you that the United States was listening in on communication between top ranking Japanese officials regarding their trying to avoid an "unconditional surrender" as a means to to spare their Emperor. So they were looking for a way out. A path to surrender but not with the same terms as Germany.

We both acknowledge that their military might was removed.

There was no threat to America. There was no threat of defeat. Hiroshima was picked partly because it was untouched. (to properly show the full might and power of the atomic bomb to the world) It was untouched because even though we had run mass bombing campaigns before the invention of the Atom bomb, it was not considered a prime military target because it wasn't.

We terror bombed a defeated Japan to prevent an invasion that wasn't necessarily going to happen. At least on our end. We had already negotiated with Russia that they could go in and invade. In Truman's diary on the 17th of July...after he met with Stahlin, Truman was excited about the imminent Russian invasion stating that "Stahlin will be in the Japanese war on August 15. Finis for the Japanese when all that comes about!"

What's interesting here, is that on the 16th, Truman knew about the success of the bomb test but he wasn't made aware of just how powerful it really was. He became aware of this on the 18th (a day after he met with Stahlin) he writes in his journal..."believe the japanese will fold up before russia comes in I am sure they will when manhattan appears over their homeland"

-So on the 16th, he knows the test was a success but is not aware of the how powerful the bomb is.
- on the 17th...he meets with Stahlin. A deal is made for a Russian invasion in August that he feels will end the war.
- on the 18th he becomes fully aware as to the power of the bomb and now is gleeful about bombing Japan.

So would you like to try again?

 

I agree with you about Xi. He’s not a madman or a religious zealot. But he is a proud man. When our so-called leaders talk about going to war with China, they should not underestimate that factor.

 

Oh your father was part of the Target Committee? Because I just posted receipts from the minutes of one of it's meetings regarding the ideology as to which sites to bomb. Sorry pal. Your "my dad knows a guy who knows a guy" is nothing but nonsense.

I posted receipts. Anti up or take the L. I don't give a flying **** if your dad had a super secret affair with Truman by the rose garden. Either you post something besides your personal opinion or **** off.

I'm posting screenshots of minutes of the Target Committee's meetings, and quoting excerpts from Truman's diary. I've quoted top Military General's and you dare to come back with "but my dad..."???

Get out of here with that weak ass nonsense.

 

Ever heard of an
ICBM"? That stands for INTERCONTINENTAL Ballistic Missile... intercontinental means it can reach other continents... China and Russia have them. Even North Korea has them now. But I have to admit that the scenario that worries me most is a bunch of trawlers and other seagoing vessels flagged all over the world but controlled by Iran, pull into our ports from coast to coast... each with a nuke in the hold, detonated simultaneously. Iran isn't bothered by MAD (Mutually Assure Destruction).

 

Please stop with the "would you like to try again" silliness. Let's try to keep this discussion rational and mature. OK?

What you say is devoid of an understanding of the Japanese psyche. My dad was actually in the planning cell for the invasion. The invasion was considered unavoidable because the Japanese people... from school kids to grandfathers all had access to weapons and would fight door to door, block by block. It wasn't a government problem, it was a population problem.

Even after the bombs were dropped, there was great opposition to ending the war. A military attack was conducted on the Emporor's residence to kidnap him. The overwhelming feeling of the PEOPLE was to keep fighting. It was only the Emporor's personal message to the people in that famous radio broadcast that got the consent of the people to cease hostilities. Have you ever heard it? It wasn't a decision to stop given to the people. It was an explanation and a plea to the people to join him in an effort to save Japanese culture by "enduring the unendurable". Without that explanation and plea by a person considered a deity by the Japanese people, each Japanese man, woman and child would have fought on... resulting in millions of casualties on both sides.

 

You are apparently unaware of the THOUSANDS of staffers and Commanders that were involved in the planning for the invasion of Japan. It was envisioned to be a bigger effort than the D-Day landings in Normandy. THOUSANDS of people were involved. My dad, A Captain, and an Artillery Battery Commander at the time, was one of them.

Your "minutes" are about the nukes... nothing to do with the planned invasion. Apples and space shuttles. The use of the bombs made the invasion unnecessary. But they were totally separate efforts. So.... don't be so quick to shout "Nonsense"... it only demonstrates ignorance of things military in general, and the planning for the invasion of Japan in particular.

What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with planning that was going on for the invasion of Japan... an invasion which, thank God, never had to happen.

 

There was no US military invasion. It simply wasn't on the table. It was planned and theorized but it wasn't even an option once the United States negotiated to have Russia invade in mid August.

Once Truman became aware as to the exact might of the bomb, he raced to use it before Russia went in because now he felt he didn't need Russia.

Absolutely no American lives were at risk. None. Stop with your bullshit. I don't care who you say your dad was. I am quoting you Truman's own journal ffs.

I am well aware as to the Japanese ideology. They were protective over their emperor. He was like Jesus Christ. And surrendering him or executing him was not an option. This was what the Japanese were trying to avoid with their surrender. They were already beaten and simply didn't want to "surrender unconditionally", possibly sacrificing their Emperor. But Truman wanted an unconditional surrender.

The enemy was defeated. There was no further risk to American personnel. We had been conducting bombing runs without a single loss of an airplane for months. We had a blockade. And Russia was preparing to invade which Truman declared he felt "would end the war"

Have I mentioned how I don't give a **** about your dad?

I've posted receipts. Post some evidence of an immanent land invasion by the United States leading up to the bomb being dropped or piss off. I'm growing really tired of this anecdotal none evidence emotional diatriabe.

 

Yes, and that is exactly my point.

This submarine could literally be anywhere. Back during the Cold War the US and USSR frequently parked them right off the shore of the other country just inside International waters.

China puts there... just off-shore in Chinese waters.

Big whoop-de-doo. They have over 100 DF-41 launchers that can do the same thing but are road mobile. And I am to be worried about a couple of subs that never sail out of their own waters?

Please.

 

You do not seem to understand that while the bomb stuff, the Russi stuff and all the rest was going on.... MILLIONS of US troops were staging, planning, preparing for the invasion of Japan. If something had malfunctioned in those bombs... the invasion would have happened. And you seem to have absolutely no clue about the size of the effort that was going on to allow that to happen. It was an option... BIG TIME. Your denial is stunning and amazing.

If you can see over your ego... here are the details about the invasion ("Operation Downfall") ...
https://ww.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Operation_Downfall

I have no desire or inclination to discuss anything with an immature, egotistical insulter. I will ignore you now. Have a great life.

 

Bullcrap.

In July 1945 a massive buildup was already occurring on Okinawa. Every warship not required elsewhere was already at Okinawa, or was waiting orders to go there. In addition to the transfer of the Eight Air Force, as the headquarters had already been relocated from England to Okinawa in July 1945. And aircraft were already being transferred over from Europe as fast as they could get the runways and facilities operational at Kadena and the other air bases. Which in early August was a fighter wing and a heavy bomber wing. With more coming as they were trying to build or repair seven major air bases in addition to multiple smaller ones on the island.

And Marines were already arriving on the island in preparation for the invasion, as well as the Army. There were 8 divisions there either partially or in full, and an additional 7 were to be sent there but they were still in Europe. Hell, had you ever even seen "Band of Brothers"? The big talk at the end of the series was the very fact that most of those at the end were preparing to be sent to Japan when the war ended. But the first priority of the military at the time was building up Okinawa to handle the roughly 20 divisions that would be needed. Hence in August they were still hard at work doing that, for an invasion in March 1946.

Why do you think so damned many ships were able to sail to Japan so quickly for the surrender? My grandfather's ship was one of them. Badly damaged in the Battle of Leyte Gulf, his ship spent 2 months undergoing major repairs before returning to service in January 1945. Where it took part in the Battle for Okinawa, then remained as part of the buildup for Operation Downfall. Where they were one of the first ships to dock at Nagasaki after the surrender.

It was not "theorized", all the preparations were already well underway. And the decision for the Soviets to invade was made in freaking February at the Yalta Conference! Yes, all the way back in February. Almost 2 months before the Battle of Okinawa. So let me get this straight. You claim that because the US "negotiated" to have the Soviets invade way back in February, that there were no attacks planned.

How do you explain the Battle of Okinawa then? That was months after that had been negotiated. And the US sure as hell never slowed down their preparations and movements so they would have the forces ready by March 1946.

That is the problem when people do not know history, and try to make it up as they go along.

 

Also, look at the actual timeline of history.

Remember, the Soviets only started their war on 9 August when the first bomb at Hiroshima on 6 August was a success. If that bomb had failed, the Soviets would not have declared war and invaded.

The agreement was for them to take part in Operation Downfall. In March 1946. And they only jumped up their timeline as like many others they figured the war would end sooner so wanted to grab as much territory as they could before then. Because part of the agreement was that they get Sakhalin Island, and they knew that if Japan surrendered before they invaded they would never get it.

There was absolutely no "agreement" for the Soviets to invade in August 1945. Their agreement was to declare war, and then invade along with the rest of the Allied Powers in March 1946. In fact, the entire Soviet buildup and attack was rushed. And the forces that did the invasion were in place and ready by 5 August, but Stalin refused to give the order until after the first bomb was used and initial assessments of the effect were known. If it had failed, there would have been no invasion. If it was only partially successful (a "fizzle"), there would have been no invasion.

And their other forces were still not ready, as is obvious when looking at the rest of their involvement. On 9 August you had the Invasion of Manchouko. But the forces for Sakhalin were not ready until 11 August. Chongjin did not kick off until 13 August (after Nagasaki). The Kuril Islands on 18 August and Maoka on 19 August. But if one looks at the dates, all of them were well after both bombs were used.

But the agreement was not "attack by August 1945". They only did that and three days after the bomb as they had to grab as much as they could as fast as they could.

 

And you can say that all you want but I just read to you the transcripts of the dialogue of the president of the United States including his diary that he had no intention of having any invasion of Japan.

Amassing troops is not evidence of an impending invasion all it is is keeping your options open. For all you know the mass buildup of troops was just a means to scare the Japanese leadership into believing that there was going to be an American invasion but there wasn't it wasn't on the table.

If that's all you have you don't have anything.

Because at the end of the day the president has to order the invasion and at the end of the day I just read to you the transcripts of the dialogues that he was having with his higher-ups and his personal diary.

You have nothing.

Don't f****** tell me I don't know anything about history when I just f****** pasted to you receipts of conversations and diary excerpts from the president of the United States. Piss off you're just being a waste of time as well.

Can anyone actually show me evidence that there was going to be an invasion because so far according to the president there wasn't it wasn't an option. He took it completely off the table once he got Russia to agree to invade themselves.

For f*** sakes you guys are all thick as planks

 

Just like the other guy I'm going to have to explain to you that that doesn't amount to anything that all that is is preparations for the possibility of an invasion of which according to the president and what he was saying to his higher-ups and what he was writing his diary wasn't even an option at that point.

You got nothing. Go tell your dad he was never going to invade he was always fine go check your history sir.

Several times it's been stated that we got to get the bomb dropped before the Russians come in.

He wasn't saying we've got to drop the bomb so that we don't have to invade.

Jesus f****** Christ you people I can actually read to you the f****** diary of the president of the United States as well as transcripts of conversations he's having leading up to the f****** dropping of the bomb and you're still stupid enough to go on this idiotic notion that because there was a buildup and there was plans that obviously that means there's going to be invasion those things don't mean that.

Currently right now there is a 100,000 troops a mass at the border of the NATO allies in Europe does that mean that they're going to be f****** going into Ukraine? But are they running drills as if they might have to go in invade Ukraine?

Is China currently not running attack drills on Taiwan? Does that mean that they are 100% going to be attacking Taiwan? You can't be this f****** stupid.

Japan and the United States are currently running drills to defend against North Korea does that mean North Korea is going to 100% be attacking Japan or the United States or does that mean that the United States and Japan are going to be attacking North Korea or is it just f****** doing drills in preparation for a maybe? An off chance of something that likely isn't going to happen...

 

Uh-huh.

ThHen post us these diary entries and transcripts where he said he was not going to invade.

All I see is crap posting.

 

We had no intention of letting Japan end the war in a draw (like the Korean War later ended).

The only way for Japan to have avoided the atomic bombs was to surrender before we dropped them.

Japan did manage to avoid getting nuked a third time by finally agreeing to surrender.

That left the millions of Japanese Army soldiers waiting to repel our invasion.

That left ten thousand kamikazes waiting to pounce on our troop transports when we invaded.

Good.

The invasion of Kyushu would have taken place in December. It was scheduled for November, but there was a hurricane that would have delayed it.

That is incorrect. Trying to end the war in a draw (like the way the Korean War later ended) is not an attempt to surrender.

They would have made our invasion a total bloodbath.

We were already blockading them. It didn't suffice.

We didn't. We dropped the atomic bombs on military targets.

I do not deny that the atomic bombs were intended to make Japan surrender.

Their only way out was to surrender.

Ending the war in a draw (the way the Korean War later ended) is not a path to surrender.

Germany was not given any terms that I recall.

Japan still had millions of soldiers and ten thousand kamikazes waiting for us.

There was no surrender offer.

That is incorrect. It was untouched because it was selected as a target early in the bombing campaign when only a handful of Japanese cities had been destroyed.

Hiroshima was a major military center with tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers. It had the highest concentration of Japanese soldiers outside Tokyo itself. It was also the headquarters in charge of repelling our coming invasion.

That is incorrect. Terrorism targets civilians. We dropped the atomic bombs on military targets.

That is incorrect. Japan had not offered to surrender yet.

The reason was to make Japan surrender.

Avoiding a bloody invasion was of course desirable. But ultimately the point was to make Japan surrender.

Had Japan refused to surrender even with the atomic bombs, the invasion would have gone ahead.

Good.

Good.

 

That is incorrect. The invasion of Kyushu was planned to take place before the end of 1945.

That is incorrect. There was no acceleration of any US timetable.

Russia accelerated their invasion timetable by a couple weeks though when they heard about the trinity test.

That is incorrect. The invasion of Japan would have been a massive bloodbath.

That is incorrect. Truman backed off from unconditional surrender when he issued the Potsdam Proclamation, which was a list of generous surrender terms.

That is incorrect. Japan was still refusing to surrender.

That is incorrect. An invasion would have been a huge bloodbath.

Good.

Charming.

Receipts which do not say what you claim.

"Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyūshū, was to begin on "X-Day", which was scheduled for 1 November 1945."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

"Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyūshū, was to begin on "X-Day", which was scheduled for 1 November 1945."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

No he didn't. You are making things up.

 

This is one of the most misunderstood parts of the end of the war.

First of all, what Japan was trying to achieve was an armistice. A pro quo ante bellum that saw all forces withdraw to their lines in December 1941. And not only that, all territory they had lost would be returned to them, as any territory they gained would be "demilitarized" with them acting as the occupation force. In other words, they were trying to negotiate an end as if they were winning.

And case in point, Potsdam never required the "Unconditional Surrender" of Japan. Feel free to check it out for yourself. No, wait. I can't trust you to do that so I will quote it below. The final line, line 13 of the document:

https://www.ndl.go.jp/constitution/e/etc/c06.html

Now that is a very distinct difference. Not a surrender of the Government, not a surrender of any of their legal authority over their own lands. Simply a surrender of their military. But please, feel free to go over the entire Proclamation and show us where anywhere it even implied that the Government had to surrender.

Plain and simple, it did not.

And it was not "Truman's" decision to make, it had to be agreed upon by all of the Allied Powers. In fact, the last one to agree to accept their surrender was not surprisingly the Soviet Union. They would have been happier if it had dragged out another month or more, as they could only grab the territory they wanted so fast.

Fact, on 10 August the Japanese Government transmitted their acceptance of a modified Potsdam. On 12 August the other Allied Powers were finally able to convince the Soviet representative to accept the Japanese modification. But as was said before, it was not the US wanting unconditional surrender, that was never a condition. And the Soviets are the one that wanted the war to continue as long as possible.

And on the night of 14 August there was the Kyuju Incident, where members of the Japanese Army attempted a coup to continue the war.

It was not until 15 August that Japan finally transmitted that they were accepting the terms that had been agreed upon.

Once again, you simply make silly claims that have no actual reality to real history. Like the silly belief that President Truman was the one that made the decision, or that Japan was ever ordered to surrender unconditionally. If that had in fact been the case, we would likely still have an occupation force there even to this day as they never would have surrendered their Emperor and Government. However, that was never a demand in the first place.