New Chinese Nuclear Threat to US

And to be honest, that never would have been followed.

The 1945 typhoon season was a particularly harsh one, and that was actually considered as a possibility. With Opal, Ursula, Ida, Ruth, Eva, and Louise all tearing through the area between July and October. The plans were already being pushed back to March 1946, as the progress in the buildup on Okinawa was way behind schedule, and several ships and aircraft had been lost or damaged the typhoons that ravaged the area. The November schedule was always a "best case" scenario, and by early August they knew that schedule was never going to be made.

I believe that in the last timeline I had seen of the revision was that November was to be the start of the bombing campaign on Kyushu. But the actual land invasion would not be until the spring when the weather would be the most favorable for the Allies. By that point the weather would have warmed, and give them a 3 month window to attack and secure the island before the monsoon season descended in July.

 

It was effectively Truman's decision. The Russians were not given any say on the Potsdam terms, and all the other interested parties went along with whatever Truman wanted to do.

Before the Potsdam Proclamation, official allied policy was unconditional surrender.

 

Of course not, as at that time the Soviets were neutral with Japan in July 1945..

However, the agreements were laid out between the Allied Powers and the Soviet Union at the conference, which was held in the Soviet Occupation Zone in Germany.

However, the agreement of the Soviets to join in the war against Japan was made way back in February at the Yalta Conference.

The Soviets were "unofficial neutral participants" at Potsdam, as at that time literally their Foreign Minister Molotov was still in talks as a neutral party in achieving an armistice between Japan and the Allied Powers. He was the one who forwarded the messages from Ambassador Naotake Sato, the Japanese Ambassador to the Soviet Union to and from Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo.

If you are interested, I can even quote extensively of the cables sent between Sato and Togo. They are actually rather interesting, as Ambassador Sato was constantly berating his superior that they had to "see reality" and get serious about surrender and ending the war, and Togo responding that Sato was not even allowed to discuss "surrender", and was to insist that the war had to end upon their terms.

And the most interesting thing is, the US was actually reading those messages as they were being sent. They had so broken the Japanese Diplomatic Code that they knew everything that Japan was attempting to negotiate through the Soviets. But it must be remembered at that time that the Soviets were neutral. And as such they could make plans for entering the war, but could in no way have any interaction in the Potsdam Talks, or in the Potsdam Declaration as that would unquestionably violate their neutrality.

And one thing must be remembered about the Soviet Union. They like many nations could bend an agreement or treaty to the limit, but they did not break them. As funny as it may sound coming from a "Cold Warrior" as myself, I never was very concerned with their violating treaties. They actually had a very high reputation Internationally with sticking to agreements. They may push them, but never broke them.

So in reality, most of what you said is both obvious, and nonsensical.

But no, the "parties" did not have to "go along" with whatever President Truman wanted. Because all of the Allied Powers had long ago agreed that they would have to unanimously agree to a peace treaty, or it would be rejected. No individual peace treaties, no nation would withdraw from the alliance. It was an all or nothing agreement, all had to agree or none.

But if you want, I can give a link to the Sato-Togo telegrams. They are actually rather interesting, as I had never heard of an Ambassador to a foreign nation so respectfully talk down to their superior. And in quite colorful language.

Such as stating that “'pretty little phrases devoid of all connection with reality,' would have no impact on 'extremely realistic' Soviet authorities." Like Togo's instance that as part of the Soviet acting as an intermediary between Japan and the Allies insisting that not one Allied Soldier would step foot in Japan. Which at the time Sato knew was lunacy as the US already held Okinawa.

But let me close with what I tell people over and over again, remember the timeline. You are trying to mishmash a great many things together, that occurred many months apart. One must analyze them in the proper order.

 

Great series of posts. Your facts are devastating the poster that originally said there was no real effort going on to invade Japan and it was all staged by the US. DRIVE ON!

 

Great series of posts. Your facts are devastating the poster that originally said there was no real effort going on to invade Japan and it was all staged by the US. DRIVE ON!

 

Well, as you likely know from my previous posts I actually lived in Japan. And have spent over 4 decades studying that conflict in extreme detail.

In fact, I am much more familiar with the Pacific War than I am with the European War in WWII. And I find Japan of particular fascination. And I freely say it is both one of the 3 nations I trust more than any other on the planet, and at the same time the one that would frighten me the most if they ever were to make the decision to go to war. Because the culture of Japan is so foreign to most in the world that they simply can not grasp it. They try repeatedly to compare it to European nations, and fail every single time. As almost nothing culturally or historically in Japan even comes close to anything in Europe.

In fact, I will go so far as stating that most attempts to describe Japan by "Westerners" are almost insulting. Especially during the early Showa era, as they are trying to lay misconceptions of late Showa era Japan upon a very different country. And the moment any of them try to say something like "The Emperor could have" in any year between 1912 and 1945 (Showa and Taisho eras) that would be completely and utterly wrong.

Yes, the Meiji Restoration (1968 to 1912) unquestionably overthrew the Daimyo and restored Imperial Dominance of the nation of Japan by the Emperor. However, he was sadly followed by Emperor Taisho who was of poor health and some believe even mentally impaired. During that era the military and high level ministers unquestionably took over the reigns of leadership, and by the time Emperor Showa took charge (1926) they had become the "New Daimyo", and the Emperor was once again reduced to nothing but a puppet in his own "Empire". This can be seen in the fact that the US Vice President has more power in their role as "President of the Senate" than the Showa Emperor had in his own Imperial Council in WWII. He could not even speak at his own council, only listen in to what they said and decided on the other side of a screen. He could not even give subtle indications he did not approve of their decisions as nobody in the council was allowed to see or talk to him.

And as I said, I am even more than willing to provide the transcripts of all the telegrams to and from Ambassador Sato and Foreign Minister Togo. I have read all of them and find them fascinating for the peek they give into that era of Japan. And I bet most have never even heard of Ambassador Sato, or why his telegrams were so important not only to historians trying to 'read into" the intentions of Japan but in how much the US knew because of MAGIC and PURPLE the US government was literally reading the exchange. And likely faster than they were as we were using computers to aid in the decoding while the Japanese were still decoding their transmissions by hand.

And to show how serious I am, here is where a copy of the telegrams for July 1945 can be found. I invite anybody to read them and make up their own minds based upon the facts.

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/library/correspondence/togo-sato/corr_togo-sato.htm

I do not hide behind silly claims and beliefs, I am more than willing and able to back up my claims with actual historical facts.

But this is also all very off-topic. But a great example of how some with agendas will attempt to derail threads for their own purposes.

 

In addition to being officially neutral, the Soviets had already shown the world that they had nefarious intentions, and so Truman would not have let them have any input into the Potsdam terms even if they had wanted to be part of it.

Not nonsensical at all. Japan did refuse to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped. And we did drop the atomic bombs on military targets.

They may not have had to support Truman's wishes.

But they would have done so.

 

Oh yes, they were "shown to be nefarious".

That is why the Japanese were trying to get them to act as intermediaries in proposing an armistice between them and the Allied Powers.

The rest of what you said is as nonsensical as the above. Once again just you spouting off, with absolutely nothing to back it up but your own silly claims.

Dude, just give it up. You make stupid claims with absolutely nothing to back them up at all but your claims. Me, I back mine up with actual historical proof. Please, go back to my previous message and actually take the time to read the Sato-Tojo telegrams. I actually did provide a link to them, just in the event that you would absolutely ignore them and continue to make silly claims with absolutely nothing to back them up. Once again, go back and actually read them.

Look at the timeline of the Yalta Conference and all the previous ones where the Allied Powers all agreed that all would agree to an end to conflicts, or it would continue. Read the agreements with the Chinese and United Kingdom Foreign Ministers that they both agreed with the US to end the war, and the waffling of the Soviets that they would agree in the end, but that the actual signing of the agreement be put off until September. So they could grab as much territory between then and the end of hostilities as possible.

But please, even though this is way off-topic, I am now fascinated by this claim that the Soviets had "already shown the world that they had nefarious intentions". Care to elaborate on that with some actual facts?

 

I've enjoyed your posts immensely. I could not agree with you more about how we (Americans) think all people think as we do and analyze the actions of people in foreign societies applying American rules. I was joined at the hip to my I-T (Interpreter-Translator) in Iraq and only started to understand the totally different nature of the Muslim mind. He gave me lots of insight into the radical Muslim mind as in ISIS and Iran.

 

Wrong again. Japan really did refuse to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped. And we really did drop both atomic bombs on military targets.

The historical record would beg to differ. It fully supports the fact that Japan refused to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.

The historical record also fully supports the fact that we dropped both atomic bombs on military targets.

No. I will continue to defend history from your attempts to deny it.

All of my facts are easily verified. For example, if you are having trouble figuring out what order the events happened in, here is a handy list of dates:

August 6: Hiroshima
August 9: Nagasaki
August 10: Japan's first offer to surrender

You have no proof that Japan offered to surrender before the atomic bombs were dropped.

You have no proof that the atomic bombs were not dropped on military targets.

I've read them a long time ago, probably before you had ever even heard of them.

They support my position that Japan did not offer to surrender until after both atomic bombs had been dropped.

What about them?

Sounds like they had nefarious intentions.

"By the time of the Potsdam Conference, Truman was already aware of Soviet unwillingness to permit representative governments and free elections in the countries under its control. The U.S.S.R. compelled the King of Romania to appoint a Communist-dominated government, Tito's Communists assumed control of a coalition with royalists in Yugoslavia, Communists dominated in Hungary and Bulgaria (where a reported 20,000 people were liquidated), and the Red Army extended an invitation to 'consult' with 16 underground Polish leaders only to arrest them when they surfaced. As Stalin said to the Yugoslav Communist Milovan Djilas: 'In this war each side imposes its system as far as its armies can reach. It cannot be otherwise.' On April 23, 1945, Truman scolded Molotov for these violations of the Yalta Accords and, when Molotov protested such undiplomatic conduct, replied, 'Carry out your agreements and you won’t get talked to like that.'"
https://www.britannica.com/topic/20...ions-2085155/The-end-of-East-West-cooperation

 

I've already posted and quoted him referring to Japan as being finished the moment he negotiated a Russian invasion.
I've posted and quoted him stating that Japan was going to be finished once "Manhattan" showed up over Japan.
Furthermore, he refers to the use of the bomb as a means of beating Russia to the punch. Not so that he wouldn't have to invade.

There was no discussion of an invasion. At best you have a military build up and preparations for an invasion that was never going to happen once Russia was negotiated in doing the dirty work.

You have nothing.

If you want allll the reciepts and details of which I am referring to, by all means. Take 2 hours and watch this collection of diary logs, conversations and minutes from meetings.



If not. Piss off. And stop wasting my time with your version of events.

 

Wrong. The invasion was planned for November 1945.

That would have been pushed back to December because of a hurricane, but the invasion was definitely going to happen if Japan had kept refusing to surrender.

Just like the atomic bombings happened when Japan refused to surrender.

 

Wrong again. Go through Truman's diary. It wasn't even an after thought once he got the Russians on board.

I'll trust the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATE'S opinion on the subject over your bullshit.

 

Nope. You are the only person here who is wrong. And you are wrong over and over and over again. It's like you aren't even capable of making a true statement.

The invasion was scheduled for November 1945.

The invasion was still scheduled to go ahead as planned and Truman did not do a thing to change that.

You sure do dislike facts and reality. But no. No matter how much you dislike them, facts and reality are not BS.

 

Yep, a common answer from trolls. Can produce nothing of factual substance, and are unable to find actual sources. So their answer is to watch a video.

Here, I have a video for you.



And it is only 15 minutes, so will waste only a fraction of the time you apparently want us to waste. Because I did do my typical prior to even considering if I should take a source seriously and vetted it. And that means looking at what else they have produced.

And oh my, he has hours of videos that seem to be nothing but attacking PragerU. OK, not a good sign if the maker is that obsessed with attacking another creator.

A 4 part series attacking the BBS for being "transphobic". Tisk-tisk.

Oh, and several going after Harry Potter and the author, and her "evil" friends.

Hmmmm, anti-vaxxer nonsense.

Funny thing is, I am only gone through the first 20 or so vids they have made. And not a single one seems to be of any historical topic. So far most have been the maker attacking others. But I will continue.

Political crap, political crap, political crap, years worth of political crap and personal opinion expressed as outrage.

Wait, and you honestly take crap like this seriously?

Half of the crap there is conspiracy theory nonsense, the other half if biased political crap.

No, I'm not watching your "video". It is likely biased political garbage, made by a person that shovels out nothing but biased political garbage.

 

No the invasion was not scheduled to go lol. It wasn't even an after thought since he never brought it up after the Russians were set to invade. Lol.


Go read his diary.maybe give yourself some I sight as to where his head was at.

 

And oh my dear sweet God! I literally have watched the first minute of that "video", and found multiple historical errors. In just the first minute!

And I can start with the claims that the bombs were dropped as otherwise "a million would have died".

Uhhh, try between 9 and 12 million. The "Million dead" was not even close to the 1-4 million figure predicted for only the Allied casualties. For the Japanese, it was expected to be between 7 and 10 million plus.

"Truman" did not decide to bomb "Hiroshima and Nagasaki", that decision was made by the military. And hell, Nagasaki was not even the target when the plane left Tinian. The target was actually Kyoto. However, the city was obscured by heavy cloud cover so they diverted to their secondary target.

When I find things like this in just the first minute, I know I am watching a piece of crap, that is not historical at all and is going to be over 2 hours of the creator harping us over and over about what they believe and not real history.

Oh, and it only gets worse, believe it or not. When in the second minute he is discussing the day of the Nagasaki bombing, he talks about how before the bomb fell the Japanese Cabinet was deadlocked. They were not deadlocked! The vote that day prior and that morning was 6 to 0 to fight to the end no matter what. It was the twin shocks of the Soviets entering the war and the second bomb is what made the cabinet deadlocked.

This is one of the most garbage videos I had ever seen, and is factually wrong in so many ways in the first one minute and twenty seconds that absolutely none of it should at all be taken seriously.

Watch a minute or so if anyone wants a laugh, but I would never take crap like that seriously at all.

 

Your not watching the video because you know your wrong and it will put a period on that.


Maybe have some tissues on hand if.you ever man up though

 

The first 3 minutes are him rehashing your bullshit theory.

Wanna try again?

 

I just pointed out the multiple historical inaccuracies in the first minute and a half, and you say I am "wrong"?

Well, enjoy your nonsensical source, that is not history.

And now I do what I do to all garbage source conspiracy theorists.

 

Uh-huh, Other than the fact that the minutes of the Imperial Council itself make that claim a lie.

What, were the minutes of the Imperial War Council a lie? That Kyoto was not the target and not under cloud cover? That President Truman actually designated the targets and not the military? You are doing no favors, as this is descending more and more into bullshit conspiracy theory garbage. Of course, looking at their other videos I am not surprised, over half to be obsessions with conspiracy theories.

And you are insisting that is the truth. Well, there's no help for you. Have a good day.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33755182
Regarding Kyoto...
The man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb
"But in early June 1945, Secretary of War Henry Stimson ordered Kyoto to be removed from the target list. He argued that it was of cultural importance and that it was not a military target.

"The military didn't want it removed so it kept putting Kyoto back on the list until late July but Stimson went directly to President Truman," says Prof Wellerstein."

"After holding a discussion with the President, Mr Stimson wrote in his diary on 24 July 1945 that "he was particularly emphatic in agreeing with my suggestion that if elimination was not done, the bitterness which would be caused by such a wanton act might make it impossible during the long post-war period to reconcile the Japanese to us in that area rather than to the Russians"."

"The city which was not even on the initial list of targets on the bombing order was chosen because of bad weather over the second target of Kokura city - which prevented the pilots from dropping the bomb on 9 August."

Stimson had Kyoto removed from the targeting list after having a personal meeting with the President. Cloud cover prevented Kokura city from getting bombed...thus swapping the target to Hiroshima.

Here's warhistoryonline to say the same thing.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/kokura-atomic-bomb.html?chrome=1
Kokura was spared twice actually.

So the video was actually correct.

Get ****ed.

 

I want to apologize for my participation in this thread derailment. And I will not be discussing anything in this thread after this not related to the topic.

 

I'd tap out as well if I were you, as you haven't gotten anything correct yet. See how you made a stupid claim trying to **** on the video...and then I (once again) post receipts proving you wrong???

Take the L...move along.

 

Wrong again. "That Japan did not surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped" is something of factual substance.

"That both atomic bombs were dropped on military targets" is something of factual substance.

I did not tell you to watch any video. Although had you been a worthy opponent I would probably have recommended a few books by highly reputable historians.