New York Times and Guardian to share Snowden material

If a person's home is being terrorized by a bunch of thugs (say Al-Qaeda), why shouldn't she be allowed to protect herself with an automatic weapon?

 

You'd commit murder? You won't discuss certain things over a web forum because you aren't allowed, but you'll murder your own countryman with no due process.

No he couldn't have.. Snowden is not the first whistleblower, not even from the NSA. Others have come forward too in order to report the crimes.. Not only did they have their concerns summarily dismissed w/o any due investigation or even caring, they would get fired, have their homes raided, any evidence gets destroyed, blacklisted, discredited, prosecuted, maybe even imprisoned etc. You cannot come forward as a whistelblower because nobody you go talk to likes a whistleblower. Those who did come forward got scoffed away, as they did not bring evidence so they didn't care.

Snowden knew he would have to try something different, since this is forced as the only option. And since they always go on about not having evidence, Snowden though, you want evidence, here I'll show you evidence!!

And I know you don't care about the crimes he revealed. You support the ongoing lawbreaking and Constitutional trampling. You act like Snowden betrayed the country, yet he stood up for the Constitution in an attempt to preserve it. Everyone else, including you, are fighting to continue to abuse it.

That's why I asked you why you can't talk about certain things. Like you work for people that would gag you. So I want to know who you take orders from that's higher than the US constitution.

Also, do Americans not have the right to know what their government are doing, what they spend their taxpayer money on and why, and what happens to THEIR OWN information?

Do you not believe in legal disclosure for transfer of information, which except for the NSA, is the law and the standard?

Your information is no longer secure, once it is taken. It gets given away to others without your consent, and archived, so that if thirty years down the road, someone wants the dirt on you, they can go and get it.

So people might share things they otherwise wouldn't. By not letting them know, they are being tricked out of their own private information.

Americans should not know they are having a right violated by their own government? Or if they should know, how could they find out without Snowden?

 

Well....if a person was allowed to purchase an Automatic Weapon after having a vigorous back ground check and going through an extensive course on how to safely fire one....I could see allowing it.

But as it is now we have a bunch of morons at gun shows firing them and kids are dying as what happened in Mass. at a gun show when a young kid not strong enough to hold a machine pistol while firing it shot himself in the head!!

AboveAlpha

 

I would not hesitate.

I would kill him the first chance I got.

Because of the complexity of our issues the CIA and NSA are necessities.

What can be done is to have more Congressional Oversight to make certain these agencies and the data and information they obtain cannot be used illegally.

As far as the fact the NSA records and tracks every single bit of electronic communication on planet Earth....it is a necessity....and if you had any idea what such information had prevented....you probably wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

No kidding.

AboveAlpha

 

Exactly... It's funded by congress. Although the budget is secret. They approved the Patriot Act, twice. They must have read it. Then again, they do pass bills without reading them, don't they.

And, the main reason we know the congress are complicit in a possible police-state agenda, because once even they could no longer plead ignorance, once the whole world knew, they STILL didn't stop it. They could have passed legislation to correct these things, but they keep everything in place. It's the same reason why they lie when they go on about corporate tax "loopholes" when referring to what are actually exemptions. It proves you want it when you leave it in place to stay.

 

So you'd be a murderer. So what's your beef about these leaks, anyway? You think the enemy might be emboldened or decide not to post their official attack agenda on their twitter feed now, so that this means we're more in danger?

You do realize that Obama provides weapons, cash and training to AQ, and other anti-American terrorist organizations.. He's helping them take over Syria, even though they conduct genocide there. They will have their own safe have state. He's a traitor, and he is directly helping the enemy. Only difference is, his motive is NOT to defend the Constitution. The USA also conduct terrorist drone strikes, including signature strikes, double tap strikes to kill medics and first responders, attacking schools, funerals, weddings etc. They also detain Muslim foreigners indefinitely with no charge or trial, and torture them. etc. These things are radicalizing whole new generations of terrorists.

If you really want to be safer then you would oppose these policies because they do not make anybody safer, except their criminal pals.

Issues are invented, exaggerated and overcomplicated. Foreign policy objectives expand in scope way beyond what the federal government is actually charged with doing. Like in the Ukraine. What does it have to do with the USA? You don't need criminal organizations that are accountable to no one and can commit any crime they want, up to and including treason, with immunity. You don't want anyone with that power to have more authority than those you elect. Because then it's no longer democracy.

I will admit the role for domestic national security. For example, they should do criminal investigations, follow leads etc. Any suspects can be monitored after you swear an oathe to a judge to promise that it is based on genuine cause for suspicion based on probable cause. Foreign surveillance is okay so long as it's compliant with the fourth amendment and the FISA.

What we're actually concerned about is the "bulk data collection".. Basically, they don't operate in the restrictions as they are meant to, rather, they collect any information they can, as much as they can, about as many different people and organizations as they possibly can, all around the world. Financial records, travel records, medical records, correspondence, you name it.

That way, if they ever get annoyed by a pesky journalist or activist or some corporation doesn't like an environmentalist protestor, they use that information to pursue people for their own free speech, and intimidate, subdue them, etc. They actually classify these people now as "terrorists". And this is already happening. So of course they feel they have the right. This isn't just the fourth amendment at stake. It's our own freedom of speech and press, and right to representation. In other words, it undermines our very democracy. Isn't that what the terrorists are trying to destroy? Why just let them win? Terrorists don't hate you for your freedoms. The government hates you for your freedoms. Terrorists have NEVER impacted or damaged any of our rights. Only the government would do that.

Since they are already abusing the data, we know we're not secure in our information. It's not just that which is at stake. There's also the wasted use of taxpayer money (how much even), the reputation of the country, and the police state precedent that it sets. Your information, even if not abused now, can be abused at any point in the future. What happens when the next dictator comes along? You already granted him the legal right to declare anybody, even a US citizen, a terrorist with no charge or trial, on their own whim, without due process, and then assassinate them. Or imprison them indefinitely and torture them. The data grab is just a part of that. You're giving your government way too much power. Even though they lie to you, and to the congress, even under oath (perjury) about what it is they actually do. Why should we trust these people who are proven to lie and violate our rights and abuse our information, that they will continue to safeguard the information even though they haven't already. How can they stop hackers from accessing it? What about all the private contractors who have access? How do they keep 30k employees in line? They couldn't even keep their dark secrets about their own operations a secret. Snowden was able to make off with the lot.. That's why the fourth says the right to be secure in your information. In no way is your information anything but compromised and hardly secure once they are sitting on it. When and if it's compromised isn't the point. It's that it can be compromised that is the point. You can't breath easy knowing your secrets are safe. Because they're not. Kind of like how if you have a broken lock on your door so you can't lock it while you sleep. You're not really secure, whether or not someone actually does try the door.

Yet it's not being done. Why not? The congress can't have oversight until they are told all the information about what the agencies get up to. You can't see and verify that which you aren't shown. Have you heard about the CIA trying to hack congressmen's computers in order to find out whether they knew to much about what they were doing? Why support crooks that defraud even our country?

Like I said, I don't believe you. I mean twitter messages? Spying on the Red Cross? etc. How could those help you? Are terrorists posting their secret plans on twitter?

This makes no sense. We're to believe this is all in the interest of national security (not corporate profit like everything else) and it makes the people safer, even though the same people that run it also give weapons and cash to AQ.. If there were a genuine war on terror and concern for terrorists, why wouldn't they bomb AQ in Syria, instead of help them? That's their strongest presence on the globe right now. Their HQ and safe haven. They want a terrorist caliphate for all Syria. They counduct genocide. But that's no problem, but they'll spy on the people because of big bad terrorists? Why? Why spend all that money? Street gangs kill way more innocent Americans. Why not focus on those terrorists?

 

[/QUOTE]

You only know and believe what you have been told.

You have NO IDEA what the reality is and what is going on out there.

The problem with combating threats identified by certain High Tech. methods and the problem with being an agent of a secretive intelligence agency is when things go BAD....EVERYONE FINDS OUT AND KNOWS IT.

When things go GOOD....it is kept a secret....and no one finds out about it even sometimes after 3/4 of a CENTURY has passed.

Because of this you will NEVER have all the pieces of the puzzle so you take the pieces that you have and form a picture out of them but what you get as a result is a completely different picture entirely.

Like I said....I you DID know even a few things that have gone on and knew a few issues that were resolved just in the nic of time....you probably wouldn't be able to sleep.

AboveAlpha

 

All very well, except that there's no evidence that Snowden's disclosures have compromised anyone or anything. On the contrary they are a huge embarrassment to your inept and unprofessional masters, and that is a very good thing indeed.

 

The poster can't discuss it because he and his (sssh), 'TEAM' are involved in (don't even whisper it), Mission Impossible-type covert 'CIVILIAN' ops. An international Man of Mystery who knows everything...

 

You missed one; when America does something bad like, for example, plunge the world into a recession through your financial ineptitude, the whole world suffers. Then there are the useless, pointless wars you involve NATO countries in. Our citizens are being killed to satisfy your lust for hegemony which you laughingly call the War on Terror. As for 'keeping the world's economy afloat' that's a total joke; you can barely keep your own heads above water with your $17 trillion debt!
But keep on believing you're the world's benefactor. The rest of us know different; the world's most bellicose nation benefits nobody except your elites and their arse-lickers.

 

You only know and believe what you have been told.

You have NO IDEA what the reality is and what is going on out there.

The problem with combating threats identified by certain High Tech. methods and the problem with being an agent of a secretive intelligence agency is when things go BAD....EVERYONE FINDS OUT AND KNOWS IT.

When things go GOOD....it is kept a secret....and no one finds out about it even sometimes after 3/4 of a CENTURY has passed.

Because of this you will NEVER have all the pieces of the puzzle so you take the pieces that you have and form a picture out of them but what you get as a result is a completely different picture entirely.

Like I said....I you DID know even a few things that have gone on and knew a few issues that were resolved just in the nic of time....you probably wouldn't be able to sleep.

AboveAlpha[/QUOTE]

Well tell us then. You're anonymous and, as Inspector Gadget, you'll know how to encrypt your data so as not to have the trail lead back to you. It can be done; even I know how to fool your precious NSA. So come on, why wouldn't I be able to sleep at night?

 

Why would we need more laws creating more Congressional oversight when we already had a law in the Bill of Rights called The 4th Amendment?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

There is also the 5th Amendment called the "due process" clause which means you can't kill an American citizen with a drone for speaking out against the American intrusion in Yemen without due process. That action also violated the First Amendment regarding free speech, but the Supreme Court held that the executive order authorizing it was legal.

If you really believe that a new law, or a new layer of laws regarding Congressional oversight is going to reverse the direction this country is heading in you might be drinking too much Kool-Aid.

 

Here's a quote from William Pitt (the younger 1759-1806) about the argument from necessity:

“Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

 

If this alleged attack were thwarted, then we know we are not in danger from it, that it won't happen, and we are indeed being protected. So we should be able to sleep easier at night!

Conversely, knowing that turnkey dictatorship is now in place to allow overnight transformation, with everybody's information that can be prioritized via algorithms to make the dissidents purge list for which doors to kick down first. The information is ALREADY being used to undermine democracy, and quash free speech and activism. We have real evidence of it. We do NOT have evidence of it being used to stop REAL terrorists.

So knowing that democracy is being sold down the river, that the USA is turning into a police state, and that "terrorists" do not refer to violent Muslim extremists but to ordinary peaceful US citizens, THIS is what makes it harder to sleep at night. The federal government is way more powerful than terrorists, and way more nefarious.

I will never believe Above Alpha. He has no evidence and he's just talking (*)(*)(*)(*). It's basic logic. Violent street gangs in our own backyard have murdered multiple 9/11's worth of innocent Americans, since 9/11. They take over entire communities where even the cops, as militarized as they are now, don't bother to go. THEY are much more of a danger. But they invest relative chump-change to dealing with this problem. IF they wanted to keep Americans safe, THAT would be their priority.

If there were REALLY a war on terror, and they wanted to defend us, then they would attack AQ. AQ is the ONLY official, declared enemy right now. Obama gives them free training, weapons and cash. US are allied on the SAME team is AQ.

Yet despite that, I'm to believe, without proof, that all these secret programs are really about defending us from terrorists? Like most tall tales told by this government, not only is it demonstrably false, it's actually IMPOSSIBLE.

 

No actually. It's because I don't automatically believe these liar leaders without evidence, just because they tell me something, that I can't get duped. What a silly thing for you to accuse me of. Especially since you don't offer ANY information (you've yet to supply a shred of specifics) you simply tell me things.. Shall I believe them?

Because neither you nor these top officials can mention any details. So you provide zero information, but insist I don't know what I need? How backwards! Fill me in!

If they thwarted a major plot, they tell us. Remember the underwear bomber? And things like that.. Why? Because the plot has been successfully arrested. The terrorists get busted. It's over. There's no "security" reason to keep it safe. What reason could there be? Like Obama can't disclose who his target was in a drone strike, even from years ago, for "national security" reasons.. Yet they are dead. What like the terrorists wouldn't already know which of them got killed? There's no security reason to keep it safe. There's plenty of more nefarious reasons though. They keep secrets because they want to cover up crimes and abuses and embarrassment.

Bull(*)(*)(*)(*). Even the congressional oversight staff don't get told the whole story. Did you not see the CIA just tried to hack them to make sure their secrets are safe? What about the interrogation tapes of KSM et. al.? A court ordered them to preserve the tapes, and show them to the 9/11 commission. What did the CIA do? Destroy the tapes.

Why keep secrets? To cover (*)(*)(*)(*) up. Whenever there's a coverup, there's something being covered up. Rule one.

So then there's no way for me to know that anything has ever gone good.

If you respond to only one thing, please answer this question:

What is your personal opinion about the US Constitution? Is it important to you? Is it worthless? How important is it? I'd love to know.

 

Well tell us then. You're anonymous and, as Inspector Gadget, you'll know how to encrypt your data so as not to have the trail lead back to you. It can be done; even I know how to fool your precious NSA. So come on, why wouldn't I be able to sleep at night?[/QUOTE]

There is no such thing as a secure system or secure data.

AboveAlpha

 

You have no idea what direction this nation is going.

It is going...in EVERY direction all at the same time.

AboveAlpha

 

As I stated a person such as yourself simply has no idea about what is going on.

The question is should we make public everything that goes on?

Should we inform the public just how close to complete disaster things sometimes go?

Do we open up the files and for the purpose of transparency allow everyone to see EXACTLY what is going on all for the sake of not having some people believe a vast conspiracy exists to keep track of everything 320 Million American's do on a day to day basis?

You tell me.

AboveAlpha

 

What do mean by "we," Kemosabe? "We, the People" or We, The Power Elite?

 

WE....is what was created by IKE and ordered by TRUMAN.

It was determined shortly after WWII that there existed some specific....Realities and Truths....that were so sensitive and so important.....that such realities and truths could not be allowed or trusted to be placed in the hands of POLITICIAN'S.....who WE had found would do and say and release just about anything whether it was detrimental to the safety and security of the people of the United States and our Allies or not.

MANY times some Politician who was having a hard time getting reelected would just SPILL THE BEANS and vocally speak about highly classified programs and events to counter their political adversaries statements just so they could get reelected.

Case in point.....when President Jimmy Carter was running against Ronald Reagan the polls showed that Reagan was killing Carter in the area of National Defense as Reagan over and over again hammered President Carter Politically by saying that during the 4 years Jimmy Carter had been President he had DEGRADED the Nations Military and that Carter had cancelled the B-1 program and due to the massive Soviet Military buildup the American people should vote him...Ronald Reagan into office as Reagan stated Carter was just too soft on the Soviets.

President Carter needed to counter this Political issue that Reagan was using that was just killing him in the polls and in an act that will FOREVER be seen by people such as myself as a Politician releasing Highly Seacret and Classified information for the sake of getting reelected......

...............President Carter went on TV and told the Nation and World that the United States Military and Air Force had developed and manufactured and was ACTUALLY CURRENTLY FLYING OPERATIONAL STEALTH AIRCRAFT!!!!!

This was a DISASTER!!! The Soviet Union had absolutely no idea that we had developed such tech and not only had developed it but were ACTUALLY FLYING AIRCRAFT....as we had F-117's flying Recon. missions over Northern, Eastern and the Western territories of the Soviet Union and China, North Korea and other nations and NO ONE HAD A CLUE WE WERE DOING THIS!!!

THAT...is why....WE....exists.

AboveAlpha

 

We, Kemosabe?

 

WE.

AboveAlpha

 

I had a super patriot, and heckava nice guy, as a 5th grade teacher, and then read Barry Goldwater's Conscience of a Conservative in Jr High, and became a super patriot, myself, up though the Vietnam War when I served in the military. Since that time I have lost all patriotism, and as far as "the consent of the governed" is concerned, the US Democrat-Republican regime and it's welfare/warfare State no longer have my consent. It is no longer "we" for me. I still find North America a beautiful place to live, and my family and friends are here, but They, (You),
are not droning people in the mid-east and spying on everyone on earth In My Name.

But I'm no martyr, and I'll probably be long dead before the US Empire finally implodes on its own accord.

 

Then I suggest if...and I find this to be highly improbable....if WE are gone....YOU had better start practicing holding a gun and guarding the wall.

AboveAlpha

 

I've refted all this (*)(*)(*)(*) ages ago. We treat information per the fourth amendment. I was talking about congress not even having it. You just keep appealing for belief in your story, and I refuted everything you said while you ignore questions that challenge your claim.. I'm not doing these circles your avoisions create anymore.

Like a man, stand up and tell me your answer to this question:

DO YOU BELIEVE THE CONSTITNUTION SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED, AS IT WAS DESIGNED? Y/N

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I've refted all this (*)(*)(*)(*) ages ago. We treat information per the fourth amendment. I was talking about congress not even having it. You just keep appealing for belief in your story, and I refuted everything you said while you ignore questions that challenge your claim.. I'm not doing these circles your avoisions create anymore.

Like a man, stand up and tell me your answer to this question:

DO YOU BELIEVE THE CONSTITNUTION SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED, AS IT WAS DESIGNED? Y/N