OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

OK so you read the story.....

"MISSION VIEJO (CBS) — An Orange County couple has been ordered to stop holding a Bible study in their home on the grounds that the meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering.

Homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, were fined $300 earlier this month for holding what city officials called “a regular gathering of more than three people”.

That type of meeting would require a conditional use permit as defined by the city, according to Pacific Justice Institute (PJI), the couple’s legal representation."

Wow three or more, well three doesn't sound so bad

"“We’re just gathering and enjoying each other’s company and fellowship. And we enjoy studying God’s word.” Stephanie Fromm told CBS2.......“This is also about a city trying to get a family to pay fees – to pay fees and pay money to them – just to be able to have friends over to read the Bible,” attorney Brad Dacus of PJI told CBS2."

Well even me an atheist would defend their right to have a few people over to their to study the Bible if that is what they want to do, or watch football, or play bridge, or what ever.

Then you read this

"“The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 people, with impacts on the residential neighborhood on street access and parking,” City Attorney Omar Sandoval said."

Well DUH, if my neighbor was having 50 people over twice a week I'd object. I don't care if they were doing poetry reading, or if the were local Republicans having political meetings. 50 people parking on a residential street probably DOES violate local law.

So does it being a religious gathering give it any special protection under the law or treated as any other gathering in a residential area?

I once had an at home business and got a DBA, they asked if I would be operating out of my home being affirmative where the home was located. I was restricted in what business activity I could engage in. Could not have customers coming to my house, could have regular small package delivery but not heavy delivery, was limited to that amount of space I could store product.

That was perfectly fine with me. I wouldn't want my neighbors engaged in a open business, a storefront business.

 

I think the restriction ought to be based on the number of cars parked in the street because of the event, not based on the number of people attending the event. I could fit three people's cars in my driveway without obstructing traffic at all.

Really, if they're having 50 people attend a weekly service, they should just start a church (or try to arrange space/time in someone else's church). You can usually rent small buildings for little money.

 

Which is the aim of this law and the laws restricting me from operating a storefront business from my home.

Biweekly in this case.

 

It seems like a pretty clear-cut enforcement of the law.
I wonder why they don't work something out with their church to form a group there.
Or they could just rent a VFW hall. Split between fifty people, the cost wouldn't be so bad.

 

The First Amendment is not absolute. The government can make reasonable restrictions on place, time and manner. A bi-weekly meeting of 50 people should be conducted in properly zoned property. It is not fair to the neighbors to jam up their streets with parked cars and traffic.

 

Your right to swing your fist................and so on.

 

I would give the Gov the finger and continue to do what i do, make them make the first move.

 

I think they already did.

 

I would make the county arrest me and hire the best lawyer i could gte..

cha ching $$

 

Also notice that it says "up to 50 people" I wonder how many people they have there on average.
we host a bible study weekly at our house and i'd be pretty pissed if the town told us we had to stop, its my house and its a public rd.
I live near our town green which quite regularly hosts craft fairs, concerts and other events and when these take place all the side rds around the green are loaded top to bottom with cars parked for the event. so I guess its ok to clot up all the little residential side streets with cars so the town can make a few bucks, but you can't do it for a bible study?
maybe they just have a cranky athiest neighbor

 

These people who are conducting bible studies should not be above the law; if they want to conduct business such as what they are doing, then they need to be in compliance with the laws that are in existence.

 

The law here is not against Christians. Its against any who violate it. Thus those Christians who are meeting should recognize it as the law and follow it. Its not saying Christians can't meet.

And to reach a number of 50 means you should meet at your church. There you have more than enough room and parking. If they say they don't have a church building then they should get. With 50 people they can now afford it.

The purpose of the home Bible studies or fellowships involve small numbers. Not a Church wide meeting. They could divide up the meeting into several different homes reducing the numbers.

To attempt to take legal action, in my mind, is arrogant and wrong in this matter.

Quantrill

 

The problem is if your event causes undue congestion on that public road. It could be a garage concert and still cause a problem.

Event organizers almost always have to get permits and pay the city for the privilege. These home study organizers seem to be offered the same choice. Why do they feel they can break the law?

 

It's also probably a fire hazard. That house can't possibly be designed to provide safe exit for 50 people in the event of a fire. Having such a large regular meeting in a residential area is unsafe (it presents a traffic hazard and a fire hazard), even if we ignore how obnoxious it must be for the neighbors.

 

Precisely. This is no "attack on Christianity" as some have already claimed.

 

So if someone opened a home base restaurant in their home next to yours with 50 customers a day you would not object?

 

Why would you do that? Why not just comply with your community's zoning laws and in so-doing be respectful of your neighbors?

Replace "Bible study" with "strip club." What would you do then?

 

You example of the craft fair is not analogous. Your "town green" is zoned for such a purpose. It's a safe bet your home is not--as is the case for most residential suburban districts.

Replace "Bible study" with "swingers' club." How would you like 50 swingers on your street twice a week blocking traffic and taking up all the parking?

 

All excellent points.

 

Not to mention the liability -- I'm sure their homeowners' policy is being reviewed as we speak.

 

"... stops at the end of my nose."

 

If it were the local Republican district members meeting there it would be just as much a violation.

 

Sure. Or Greenpeace, or the ACLU. Heck, a biweekly Tupperware party...

 

let me reiterate...if they are having 50 people there twice a week i agree they should just start there own church and rent an appropriate venue.
notice it says " up to 50 people". does that mean that at one time they decided to have a cook out and fifty people showed up but typically they have 12 to 15 people there weekly, or do they have 50 people there twice a week?
my concern is the towns ability to mandate such things so harshly, in the article it says that if you have 3 or more you need a permit, so if i have 4 of my friends over every sunday to watch football do i need a permit? lets be reasonable. i once ran into a somewhat similar situation whe we bought a new car and transfered the registration from our old car over to the new one. The old car was parked neatly at the top of my driveway and was put up for sale. about a week later i get a notice from my city saying that it is illegal to have an unregistered vehicle on your property and that i had 10 days to re register it or remove it or it would be towed!! keep in mind this wasn't an old beater up on blocks with the tires missing and the engine ripped out, it was a perfectly driveable jeep cherokee. I couldn't believe it. thankfully I sold it rather quickly and there was no issue but if they had come and towed (stole, in my opinion) my vehicle from my driveway i would have sued the crap out of them! now there are some rumors about them putting restrictions on fireplaces and stoves being burnt in the winter for heat because some people don't like the smell of smoke, listen its my house, its my fireplace, its installed fully to code and if i want to have a fire in my fireplace i'm gonna, if you don't like it to bad!!! I can understand the need for zoning laws but lets use a little common sense here.

 

But that's why we have zoning laws. You are right, it is your property. And what if the guy across the street had a dozen junk cars in his front lawn? Now it's time to put your house on the market -- think you'll ave a lot of interest?

Municipal codes are a necessary evil if we are to live together in harmony. I liken them to a "death by a thousand cuts." But the alternative is your neighbor's "Swinger's club" taking up all the parking on your street...