OK LIb s, let's think this "assault weapons" ban through with math and logic...

I own a gun , I'm not part of any militia ... How did this happen ?

 

So then, the thread has gone on for 78 pages and I believe we can agree one one thing:

- Most gun control advocates have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
Or, more specifically, don't even know what the ban actually prohibits and what was still allowed under the 1994 Crime Bill.

 

Wolverine.

Again, you're playing the same pathetic cowardly games. THEY WON'T WORK. I took a look at the photos you posted. Right off the bat, I noticed that you failed AGAIN to address the capacity of the magazine. JUST LIKE YOU ALWAYS DO. AGAIN SHERLOCK, THE EXTENDED CAPACITY MAGAZINES WERE RESTRICTED BY THE NOW EXPIRED BAN ON 'ASSAULT WEAPONS'. NOT JUST THE AESTHETIC FEATURES. SO GET OFF YOUR LAZY BUTT, GO BACK AND MAKE THE CORRECTION FOR THE EXTENDED CAPACITY MAGAZINES. THEY ARE FUNDAMENTAL IN STATING THE MOST RELEVANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HUNTING RIFLE AND AN ASSAULT RIFLE.

The issue of certain aesthetics you now stand on has been addressed by Feinstein already. I watched the CSPAN coverage of her testimony regarding the new proposal weeks ago. She admitted that the previous ban didn't go far enough. The new proposal will. Not that I agree with her position on each and every aesthetic feature but I do agree with two in particular. Neither of which is the bayonet lug. I've already addressed this but I'll do so again in response to your latest attempt to intimidate me.

The 'pistol grip' and the 'flash suppressor' both make a rifle more lethal. One by allowing greater use of the hands and wrists when engaging multiple targets or moving targets. The other by reducing the visible distraction with each shot fired. In particular, rapid shots which are not necessary for hunting. I've never been concerned with the bayonet lug. I see it as more of a gimmick to appeal to your kind than anything else. As far as I know, it hasn't been used by anyone to achieve a higher body count. Otherwise, I probably would have an issue with it.

Damn right the previous ban saved lives. I've already explained how. But in your honor, I'll do so again:

In 1994, a ban on 'assault weapons' went into effect. This ban made the sale of specific models of 'assault weapons' illegal. It also placed a limit on the number of certain aesthetic features that manufacturers were allowed to integrate with any given model. Aesthetic features designed specifically for combat. Although the previous ban did not go far enough, it did place an absolute limit on the capacity of detachable magazines. The maximum capacity allowed was of 10 rounds. This limit on capacity was fundamental. No other feature ever allowed on any firearm sold legally to any private citizen has ever made more of a difference in lethality than the extended capacity magazine. They give those who possess the ability to carry more rounds, fire more shots, and achieve a higher body count with greater ease. Since the expiration of the 'assault weapons' ban in 2004, extended capacity magazines have been selling in record numbers. Some with capacities of 20, 30, or even 100 rounds have been sold by the thousands. As a result, several of the ten most deadly 'mass shootings' in US history have taken place. The 11th has as well.

The most deadly 'mass shooting' in US history took place at Virginia Tech University in 2007. 32 students were killed in two separate attacks spaced roughly two hours apart. The shooter was Seung Hui Cho. Two handguns and 19 magazines were used in the assault. Some with a previously banned capacity of 15 rounds.

The most deadly one-man gun attack in US history took place in 2012 at Sandy Hook Elementary School. 18 children, and 8 adults, were killed by Adam Lanza, the son of a gun fanatic. Lanza killed his mother, took possession of her previously banned specific model of AR-15 'assault rifle' equipped with previously banned 30 round magazines, two handguns, and a shotgun and carried out his assault on Sandy Hook. The previously banned AR-15 model equipped with previously banned 30 round magazines was used to shoot and kill all or most of the victims. Lanza then killed himself with a handgun. The shotgun was left in the trunk.

The assault on the American Civic Association Immigration Center took place in 2009. The shooter, Jiverly Antares Wong, killed 13 people before taking his own life. Two hand guns were used in the assault along with several previously banned extended capacity magazines. At least one of which, had a previously banned capacity of 30 rounds. It was found empty at the scene.

The assault on the Century Movie Theater took place in 2012. The shooter, James Holmes killed 12 and injured 58. His primary weapons were a shotgun, a rifle, and a hand gun. At least two previously banned extended capacity magazines were used in the attack. One of which had a previously banned capacity of 100 rounds. Fortunately, that particular 'drum' magazine malfunctioned after firing somewhere between 20 and 30 rounds. Otherwise, the incident may have become the most deadly 'mass shooting' in US history.

That makes three of the top ten most deadly 'mass shootings' in US history carried out just within the last four years. All committed using previously banned extended capacity magazines. Plus the 11th. Again using previously banned extended capacity magazines. Another took place on a military base. Mark my words: More body counts will enter record territory within the next two years. The trend will continue to grow as long as those 'assault weapons' and 'extended capacity' magazines are sold to private citizens.

Critics: I challenge you to discount the circumstances regarding the specific examples listed above. Go ahead and claim that all those 'assaults' would have made the top 11 most deadly in US history with or without the use of those extended capacity magazines. Go ahead and make fools of yourselves. In the meantime, I'll say it again.

The now expired ban on 'assault weapons' saved lives by reducing access to specific models and extended capacity magazines. It's expiration has already cost lives by making those specific models and extended capacity magazines readily available to private citizens. The sooner another ban goes into effect, the better.

 

Wolverine. I've already responded to your challenge. AGAIN, THEY WEREN'T SOLD SHERLOCK. Not the specific models covered by the ban. and AGAIN. NOT THE EXTENDED CAPACITY MAGAZINES WHICH BY FUNCTION, MAKE A GREATER DIFFERENCE IN LETHALITY THAN ANY OTHER FEATURE EVER INCLUDED WITH ANY FIREARM EVER SOLD LEGALLY TO A PRIVATE CITIZEN.

Again die-hard gun freaks. The now expired ban saved lives not only by banning the sale of specific models of 'assault rifle' but also by banning the sale of 'extended capacity' magazines. Again, die-hard gun freaks. Four of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history have taken place since the expiration of that ban. Most or all of which were carried out in part, using previously banned models and/or previously banned 'extended capacity' magazines. When 'extended capacity' magazines are used, they give the shooter the ability to carry more rounds, fire more shots, reload less often, and achieve a higher body count with greater ease. The very presence of these 'assault weapons' in our society appears to have a negative influence on some. Lanza and Greigo were both raised by gun enthusiasts or fanatics. Both had access to a parent's AR-15 which they used to commit mass murder. Mark my words: YOU MARK MY WORDS: More record-territory body counts will be achieved within the next two years by gun fanatics or their children who finally go over the edge. THERE IS A CONNECTION. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT OUR OBSESSIVE GUN CULTURE.

 

So pistol grips and large-capacity magazines are more dangerous than psych drugs and Obama's drones, got it.

And STOP YELLING AT PEOPLE. It does nothing for your case... not that you have much of one.

 

I have colossal opinions regarding the use of those drugs. Opinions we may agree on. I do see a connection. But unless you have a magic wand capable of waving away mental illness, something must also be done about the firepower readily available to private citizens.

Again die-hard gun freaks. The now expired ban saved lives not only by banning the sale of specific models of 'assault rifle' but also by banning the sale of 'extended capacity' magazines. Again, die-hard gun freaks. Four of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history have taken place since the expiration of that ban. Most or all of which were carried out in part, using previously banned models and/or previously banned 'extended capacity' magazines. When 'extended capacity' magazines are used, they give the shooter the ability to carry more rounds, fire more shots, reload less often, and achieve a higher body count with greater ease. The very presence of these 'assault weapons' in our society appears to have a negative influence on some. Lanza and Greigo were both raised by gun enthusiasts or fanatics. Both had access to a parent's AR-15 which they used to commit mass murder. Mark my words: YOU MARK MY WORDS: More record-territory body counts will be achieved within the next two years by gun fanatics or their children who finally go over the edge. THERE IS A CONNECTION. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT OUR OBSESSIVE GUN CULTURE.

Please read page 78.

 

Oh so you'll talk about psych drugs but not Obama's drones. You need to work on that blind spot.

So how is banning guns more effective than banning the psych meds that drive people to mass murder? Seems like you're getting it backwards. The meds drive the person to the murder, not the tool he chooses after the meds have already screwed him up.

 

I posted the picture of what was sold before the ban and what was sold after. An A2 XM-15 with the flash suppressor and bayonet lug. One A2 XM-15 without the flash suppressor and bayonet lug. Semi-automatic firearms were restricted to one "evil features". As long as they did not have those features, they were sold. The XM-15 labeled "post ban" lacked those features and was legally produced and sold to civilians. Something you to consider is that the AWB was considered to be a failure because firearms like the one pictured were still produced and sold. The law only stopped gun manufactures from including, what are largely, cosmetic features. Your sources are a joke.

Read the law:
Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally).

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:

Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
Detachable magazine.



I acquired this rifle during the ban (far right). Legally produced. Legally purchased. How do you explain that?


They were sold. I purchased one.

I am a firearms enthueist. You are not.

I purchased and had access to the firearms you describe. You did not.

I know what I am talking about. You do not.

I am right. You are wrong.

Educate yourself.

 

So,here is what I am getting,in a nut shell-you have our lawmakers making laws(in this instance,gun laws) that do nothing but soothe(put a bandaid on, or kick down the road)a problem that futher confuses instead of fixes a problem. You then have gun owners that think they are right & standing behind the 2nd amendment & gun control advocates thinking the laws have been created for better protection-no wonder Wolverine & Free Thinker are at each other-our said "feel good laws" have people splitting hairs because our laws are not well defined enough, or well thought out, before becoming law, either,because of political repercussions or our lawmakers are not expert enough to be making proper decisions. Am I correct in my content so far?

 

Wolverine. I've already acknowledged the restrictions on multiple aesthetic features. I stated that specifically in my response to you on page 78. The fact that you went into more detail about those specific aesthetic features does not contradict my own statement regarding them. To say that it does would be sort of saying that Bill is wrong for referring to a truck as 'red' when as Joe points out, the truck is actually 'red' with a 'blue pinstripe'.

Let's not kid ourselves. The 'armed' grenades have been regulated for years. Just so we're clear on that.

Your continued refusal to acknowledge the previously banned extended magazine capacities would be laughable at this point if the issue weren't so serious. Again, your refusal to acknowledge them is pure cowardice.

I see nothing about your rifle (far right) that would have applied under the previous ban except for one obvious feature. The magazine. What is the capacity of that magazine? Is it a 10 round capacity that happens to resemble one of greater capacity? If so, then it would not have been covered by the previous ban. Is the capacity greater than 10 rounds? If so, then you must have made the purchase from existing stock. Either that or you made the purchase before the ban went into effect or after it expired. The final possibility is that you made the purchase from another private citizen. Magazines with capacities of over 10 rounds were banned for sale to private citizens from 1994-2004.

I know how the ban applied. When it went into effect, banned items were stamped at some point before distribution. Those items were banned for sale to private citizens. Existing retail stock was allowed to sell out.

Damn right I'm no gun enthusiast. I don't get excited over the latest toys, movie premiers, CD releases, celebrity interviews, or concert tours, and I sure as hell won't let any gun manufacturer wrap me around their little finger with incredibly obvious marketing stunts, like the deliberate spreading of false information or anti-government paranoia. I do enjoy target practice but aside from that, I own my guns for self-defense only. Damn right I'm no enthusiast. I never will be.

Now get specific about that magazine.

Again die-hard gun freaks. The now expired ban saved lives not only by banning the sale of specific models of 'assault rifle' but also by banning the sale of 'extended capacity' magazines. This effectively reduced access. Again, die-hard gun freaks. Four of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history have taken place since the expiration of that ban. Those four were carried out in part, using previously banned models and/or previously banned 'extended capacity' magazines. When 'extended capacity' magazines are used, they give the shooter the ability to carry more rounds, fire more shots, reload less often, and achieve a higher body count. The very presence of these 'assault weapons' in our society appears to have a negative influence on some. Lanza and Greigo were both raised by gun fanatics. Both had access to a parent's AR-15 which they used to commit mass murder. Mark my words: YOU MARK MY WORDS: More record-territory body counts will be achieved within the next two years by gun fanatics or their children who finally go over the edge. THERE IS A CONNECTION. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT OUR OBSESSIVE GUN CULTURE.

 

And you did! FAIL MISERABLY!

 

LOL

I am glad to see you are an expert on things you know very little on.

The rifle was purchased mid ban, the magazine was included with the rifle. The magazine is a thirty round magazine.

Post ban magazines were illegal to civilian sale. Pre-ban magazines were not (I have one marked "For Law Enforcement and Government Use Only" just for kicks). They were cheap too, I remember they were around ten bucks. They are actually more expensive these days (even before Sandy Hook).

Ummmm... so yep. You are yet to demonstrate how the ban worked.

 

You control freaks are so committed to taking innocent people's guns away that you to refuse to consider other ways to solve the problem that you pretend to be so passionate about - the mass-murder of innocent people.

In a way, the perpetrators of these domestic mass murders (as opposed to Obama's ongoing overseas mass-murder which you like to ignore), the ones on the psych drugs, are victims too. Victims of a mental "health" establishment that puts profits ahead of patients and consigns them to hell instead of helping them just so they can make a few bucks off their poisonous psych drugs. If you want to find the real cause of the increase in domestic mass murders over the last couple of decades, that would be a much more fruitful place to start than jumping straight to gun bans as the first (and only, apparently) resort.

Your refusal to look at the whole picture and then focus on the real causes of these murders demonstrates your hypocracy, your racism, and your committment to enabling the totalitarian police state that "America" has become.

You think mass murders are bad now? They are only going to get worse in the future you are helping to bring about. Banning a few guns isn't going to make any difference.

As for Obama's murders, the blood of his victims is on your hands.

 

Google "grandfather clause." That'll help you understand that if you are thus (good law-abiding sorta fella) and have gobs of ARs already, no one is coming to grab them, unless of course you beat your spouse, hold up a bank, are certifiably nuts, that sorta thing.

Relax. You'll be okay.

 

Wolverine. Again, my exact words: I see nothing about your rifle (far right) that would have applied under the previous ban except for one obvious feature. The magazine. What is the capacity of that magazine? Is it a 10 round capacity that happens to resemble one of greater capacity? If so, then it would not have been covered by the previous ban. Is the capacity greater than 10 rounds? If so, then you must have made the purchase from existing stock. Either that or you made the purchase before the ban went into effect or after it expired. The final possibility is that you made the purchase from another private citizen. Magazines with capacities of over 10 rounds were banned for sale to private citizens from 1994-2004.

I know how the ban applied. When it went into effect, banned items were stamped at some point before distribution. Those items were banned for sale to private citizens. Existing retail stock was allowed to sell out.

If your rifle was purchased new, then it was already in stock when the ban went into effect. In which case, the magazine never would have been stamped illegal. If it was purchased used, most likely from a private citizen, then obviously, the magazine never would have been stamped illegal under the ban. Again, you're still using cheap tricks to make it appear as if I don't know how the ban worked when I've proven that I do.

Another thing: Mid-ban my ass. Not if you made that purchase new. I know for a fact that existing stock of 'new' items covered under the ban ran out quickly. Those items covered were near impossible to come by 'new' within the first year. Again, mid-ban my ass. Not if you made that purchase new.

Regarding the effectiveness of the ban which you still fail to grasp: What do you suppose happened to the production and distribution of 'new' items specifically covered under the ban? Do you suppose that the production and distribution of banned models and magazines to private citizens continued with no interruption or reduction whatsoever? How do you suppose those sales were effected once the existing retail stock ran out? Do you really expect me to believe that the retails shelves were stocked ahead of time to keep sales of banned items at existing levels for a full 10 years? Are you really that fxxxxxx stupid? Seriously, ARE YOU REALLY THAT FXXXXXX STUPID?

Damn right the ban worked. Newly produced items covered under the ban were stamped illegal for sale to private citizens. Prices of banned items already in retail stock rose drastically when the ban went into effect in 1994. When the existing retail stock of specific models and magazines covered under the ban ran out, new sales of those specific models and magazines had nowhere to go but all the way to ZERO. I never stated or implied anything about a mass confiscation. In fact, I've stated explicitly that NO MASS CONFISCATION TOOK PLACE. So duh, the 'used' items covered under the ban would still be in possession and even circulation to some degree. I I have no reason to dispute that. BUT NO WAY IN HXXX IS YOUR IMPLICATION OF NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE OF REALITY. DAMN RIGHT THE BAN WORKED.

Again die-hard gun freaks. The now expired ban saved lives not only by banning the sale of specific models of 'assault rifle' but also by banning the sale of 'extended capacity' magazines. This effectively reduced access. Again, die-hard gun freaks. Four of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history have taken place since the expiration of that ban. Those four were carried out in part, using previously banned models and/or previously banned 'extended capacity' magazines. When 'extended capacity' magazines are used, they give the shooter the ability to carry more rounds, fire more shots, reload less often, and achieve a higher body count. The very presence of these 'assault weapons' in our society appears to have a negative influence on some. Lanza and Greigo were both raised by gun fanatics. Both had access to a parent's AR-15 which they used to commit mass murder. Mark my words: YOU MARK MY WORDS: More record-territory body counts will be achieved within the next two years by gun fanatics or their children who finally go over the edge. THERE IS A CONNECTION. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT OUR OBSESSIVE GUN CULTURE.

 

You are dodging the issue, baby-killer. Everyone knows Feinstein and the rest of you control freaks consider the current legislation under consideration as a step towards the ultimate goal of confiscation.

 

Really? Not quite, however, since darnit, I do not know. Can you imagine, since everyone else does? Astonishing; yeah? But then, I'm a nincumpoop, obviously.

So help me out: where might I go so I can "know," too? Emphasis on knowing stuff and not just fearing it, thinking it, being delusional, etc. etc.

Just the facts, ma'am.

TIA - ag

 

Nothing here about psych meds or Obama's murders. Yep, you're dodging.

 

Okay; now I'm understanding. Thanks.

So a more salient question: how do you dress yourself, assuming it's being done without assistance from a care-giver? Inquiring minds, need to know.

Thanks again,

-ag

 

Don't tell me you never saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEBThSqhyEA

Stop dodging.

 

Again die-hard gun freaks. The now expired ban saved lives not only by banning the sale of specific models of 'assault rifle' but also by banning the sale of 'extended capacity' magazines. This effectively reduced access. Again, die-hard gun freaks. Four of the top ten most deadly mass shootings in US history have taken place since the expiration of that ban. Those four were carried out in part, using previously banned models and/or previously banned 'extended capacity' magazines. When 'extended capacity' magazines are used, they give the shooter the ability to carry more rounds, fire more shots, reload less often, and achieve a higher body count. The very presence of these 'assault weapons' in our society appears to have a negative influence on some. Lanza and Greigo were both raised by gun fanatics. Both had access to a parent's AR-15 which they used to commit mass murder. Mark my words: YOU MARK MY WORDS: More record-territory body counts will be achieved within the next two years by gun fanatics or their children who finally go over the edge. THERE IS A CONNECTION. SOMETHING MUST BE DONE ABOUT OUR OBSESSIVE GUN CULTURE.

 

That's only ARs, and as DF freely admits (maybe excuse-making) it's a no-go. But then, that's just DF and not all the others you fear, whilst fashioning a tinfoil-hat, coming to get you.

So, and since I've failed so miserably, maybe be more active in chilling out: breath in through your nose, then out through your mouth. You'll be relaxed in no time.

 

First bold. Since when is a limitation on the types of guns you can buy equal to "taking innocent people's guns away"...............especially when you consider the FACT that you are still allowed to buy guns that are not limited/regulated? HUH?

Second bold. Ahhhhhh, so suddenly protecting America and americans is the wrong thing to do???? And you call us unpatriotic?

The GOP mind completely baffles me.

 

Our Second Amendment clearly enumerates what is necessary to the security of a free State.

 

Semi-automatic rifles were still sold.

The magazines were still sold.

I legally acquired both (find a Shotgun News from that time if you want to clue yourself in and stop appearing like an ignorant child). Look at the rifle. The WASR-10 lacks the features to make it an "assault rifle". Yet, it had the same "firepower" as my post-sunset GP WASR-10.

You are yet to demonstrate how the ban work if everything was still available.

What you think doesn't really matter on this issue.

There is no reason to be aggressively stupid.