Part 21 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

A poster wrote that Moses had access to those documents, even if they were written in the sand. So I wrote that the librarians, or the people who had those documents, must have been unable to deduce what they meant but that a goat herder (Moses) did. It seems strange that an unsophisticated goat herder could have quickly learned what educated people were unable to.

 

Moses didn't write the first five books of the OT... They were written about 800 years after Moses.

 

The biggest flaw in your presentation is that the leaders of Judaism as was pointed out politicized and nationalized the chosen people to themselves thus creating their own interpretation of the Tanakh that is why they rejected Jesus Christ for attempting to depoliticized and denationalized God's chosen people and this is one major point that you seem to deny or ignore. How can you claim that the Tanakh or the Jewish interpretation of Satan or of God is the accurate one when they have rejected Jesus Christ?

 

Moses was the beginning of the five books of the OT actually he was the main character and 800 years later it was compile as a book by the religious leaders of the Jewish people making it their official national identity up to this date a Jew is not consider a pure Jews unless the embrace Judaism.

 

According to the Talmud (Babylonian) the Tanakh was compiled around 450BCE. Rabbinic sources have it earlier - after the destruction of the First Temple. No modern scholars can give an agreed date. I go along with the Talmud on the grounds that the Septuagint version came into being in the 2nd-3rd century BCE, and was available to all Hebrews who were still estranged from the land of Palestine. How could they translate 'books/scrolls' not yet available.
The NT was written in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE (depending on what you believe) and compiled into the ' Biblical canon' in the 4th century CE.

So he asked Ashteroth, Baal-poer, all the other gods, and the god of the Jews. I wonder what answers he got from them. Every gifted intelligent individual does not seek answers from the gods. If you believe God created man then every gifted intelligent individual uses the brains God gave him.

But I thought this was the official Jewish religion from the time of Moses. Exodus 6:1-8

 

You asked where I got it from. I told you.

 

Sorry. This wasn't aimed at you but at 'he who must not be named' Oh why not - WarRen.

 

There is no flaw in my interpretation. I've said nothing about the above in red. I have simple given you the interpretation which even biblical scholars today are coming round to accept.

The biggest obstacle to your argument is that Christianity has done what you say the Jews did. Christianity claims that they are the only rightful people of God, His chosen ones, and everyone else is wrong.

And hey! what do you know, even Islam claims the same.

Easy. How do you know Jesus Christ was what he claimed? He could easily have been the Jewish Messiah - though they reject him. You only have your faith to convince you he was Gods Son, no 'proof' as a certain poster would claim.

 

Leviticus and Deuteronomy were written by the Levites, not Moses.... Many , many Jews are atheists.

 

What has the Holy Spirit taught you ?

 

You are making up stories WanRen and stating them as fact. That you can make up stories does not make them true.

 

1. The compilation of the OT or Tanakh as mention the main core element is Moses. The Hebrew history and religion as we know it started with Moses only the Levites or Pharisees are allowed to write and interpret what is written in the scrolls. Before 2nd century the Levites which were consider the religious elites has already started to kept records either through verbal tradition and in some written forms. Due to wars it is believe that what ever written scrolls they have were destroyed that the only thing that survive was through verbal transmission that would later be written down again in the 2nd and 3rd century. Many times those old writings either partially or in whole have been damaged or destroyed from wars in which Jewish temples were always the main target by their conquerors which was the normal practice back then to ensure absolute conquest. Eventually attempts will be made to restore what ever stories they can remember by the religious leaders of Judaism.
2. The NT which was written down in the 1st century AD is the continuation of the OT and because leaders of Judaism rejected the NT because of Christ it became a book of its own called the Bible. The Bible that would consist both the OT (Tanakh) and the NT.
3. Just like every scientist motivation in search for answers their initial motivation is about questioning mainstream or existing religion people like Einstein, Newton, Galileo, Copernicus etc.will seek answers about the universe by questioning God's creative powers how things begun and the purpose of life. Moses is no exception he was an educated man a part of the Egyptian royal household his hunger for answer stem from his desire to learn the truth between his adapted Egyptian upbringing and his Hebrew roots and that led him to God. And it would be during Moses time that God will reveal the Ten Commandments and subsequently mark the beginning of the revelation of the Old Testament (Tanakh) to the New Testament.
4. Exodus 6:1-8 God finally reveal to Moses what the Hebrews never knew or forgotten about God's covenant with Abraham and Isaac. God did not say that all other people mainly the Egyptians are not his people only that God has made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that the Hebrews will be His chosen people "I will take you as my people" not only people.

7 I will take you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you to the land I swore with uplifted hand to give to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. I will give it to you as a possession. I am the Lord.’”

It would be the religious leaders that would use this to nationalized and politicized God's message that the Jews are the only chosen people and everyone not Jews must submit to their rule it is because of this that they rejected Jesus Christ because Christ reprimanded them and told them they were wrong.

 

The Ten Commandments are borrowed from the Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Code of Hammurabi.

 

The Levites are the religious elites that are the only ones consider to read, write and interpret the Tanakh.
Any Jews that does not embrace Judaism is consider not Jewish enough this include atheist Jews.

 

The Jews have rejected Jesus Christ remember the first people that Jesus approach were not the Gentiles but the Jews and the religious leaders. Me or gentiles accepted Jesus Christ who is a Jew is not just by faith alone but base on historical evidences that his message was the accurate message of God and not the Pharisees who have as I said nationalized God's chosen people to Jews alone.
Christianity does not nationalized God's message that is why Christianity teaches about universality that the Jews were chosen people not the only chosen people. Judaism and Islam are wrong because they got it wrong not because Christianity is teaching it is wrong.
Islam history clearly lack all sorts of credibility in their claim because they rely on one man Mohammed a man who was like Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great conquerors not messenger of Jesus Christ. We have seen just how many Islam like sects have sprang up and made claims of their own and so far only Islam has been able to survive because their claims were backed with harsh militancy.

 

Muhammed was a merchant who managed his wife's caravan trade.... and later a messenger to the people of the Arabian Peninsula. His sermons were: Save yourselves. I cannot save you. Return to the God of Abraham.

 

You are making no sense. Islam relies on one man "Mohammed" ... Christianity relies on one man "Jesus".

There is no proof that either were not charlatans. Perhaps both were inspired by God. The fact of the matter is that we just do not know you there is no basis for your claim that one lacks credibility and the other does not.

If any book lacks credibility it is the Bible as it is so full of contradictions, edits, interpolation and omission.

 

No they're not. You claim so much, and know so little. Every Jewish male was able to read the Tanakh. In fact, they were expected to after their BarMitzva when they became adults. Jesus wasn't a Levi so why did he discuss the Tanakh with teachers in the Temple? Why did he pick up the scriptures in the synagogue, read from them and claim they were referring to them? Why did he interpret and debate the scriptures with the Rabbis and Pharisees?

Jews are 100% Jews whether they are religious or not.

 

1. Where are these historical evidences?
2. You can become a Christian whatever your nationality. You can also become a Jew whatever your nationality (Matthew 23:15).
3. Islam has many sects, not just 2. Christianity has many sects. Out of Christianity has come the Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, Spiritualists and many others calling themselves Christians.
4. Islam, regrettably, is doing what the Christian Church did for many centuries. Persecution and destruction.
5.Judaism is wrong? Why? Because you say so? Because Christianity says so?

 

You’re lucky, I don’t only find Creflo Dollar and Co. sickening, but also blasphemous. Double pain.

Dunno about the limited exposure. I’m from across the ocean, and even I’m aware that there’s such a thing as moderate mainline Protestant Churches in the US and that the Catholic Church is more nuanced than the old clichés have it. So I should reckon that halfway educated American Atheists must theoretically have access to enough general knowledge about Christianity to make finer distinctions.
So I get the feeling that most atheists in this forum are no less ‘fundamentalist’ than their whacko Christian counterparts. Some people seem to have an active desire to see the world in black and white, to blend out anything that could destroy this comfortable simplicity, and to feel superior to others, be it because they deem themselves saved while others supposedly are not, or be it that they deem themselves bright and enlightened while others supposedly are not.

Fundies don’t head into the past really. They are a rather late phenomenon in church history and they don’t have much of a clue about older Christian beliefs. Alas, they seem to be rather successful. See above: many people prefer simple messages.

 

I guess I was thinking that the proliferation of fundies and creationists in the States has led to a slightly different brand of atheism. We don't have much of either, here, so our atheists are probably more mellow. We've also been doing it longer (majority atheism, that is), so there's a certain maturity, to what is effectively the default position. Having said that, the response to meeting someone professing protestant Christianity is quite different to that experienced when someone is found to be catholic. Perhaps that's more about the assumption that Catholicism is seen as 'family tradition', whereas Protestantism (here, where it's NOT inherited) is a choice made, usually in adulthood. Perhaps my own comfort with Catholicism is residual to this. Or it could be simply that I've never had a single catholic person or priest attempt to convert me, or my kids. I've been to many masses, and not once have I been made to feel that I ought to join up, or been looked at askance because I don't participate in the Eucharist, etc. All the 'grief' I've experience from Christians has been from protestants (and the occasional door knocker). I've never been to a protestant church service without someone getting wind of my non-member status and acting on it. It's the most off-putting thing imaginable, to feel one can't sit quietly in the back row to enjoy a little folk wisdom without having to be 'en garde' for people with crazy glints in their eyes

 

Richard Dawkins is British and was raised an Anglican. The Archbishop of Canterbury certainly is neither a fundamentalist nor a creationist.

You must either live in a very exotic country or you must have a very broad definition of atheism if there is an atheist majority where you live.

Also you must have been to some rather exotic Protestant churches. I dropped into a Protestant church where nobody knows me on Easter and sat silently in the back row. Nobody had crazy glints in their eyes. It is of course possible that some people would have perceived the invitation to a communal breakfast after service as an overly outreach. Had I gone, I hope the pastor and some congregation members would have come up and talked to me. It’s called being friendly and welcoming.

I grew up Protestant by the way. Old Prussian stock and so much of a family tradition that my grandmother never really got over the ‘scandal’ that her oldest son secretly married a Catholic. .

 

I'm actually in one of the dreaded godless nations (Scandinavia, asia/pacific, japan, etc), not the UK

Friendly I'm good with, but when it's closely followed by questions about private beliefs or practices, delivered with the arrogance of someone who believes that it's perfectly okay to ask a complete stranger such things, well .... the friendly element evaporates really fast! Maybe the protestant churches here are so desperate for new blood (they're dying out very rapidly) that they overstep decency boundaries?

Bless your grandmother, I love hearing things like that. Reminds me of my own grandmother's funny little prejudices - and she had a few!

 

So are you saying that the Quran is a more credible book than the Bible?
If you are saying that nothing or everything lacks credibility then does this mean history lacks credibility too especially those written before the age of modern technology? Persia, Assyria, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Arabs, Europeans, Christians, Jews, Chinese, Japanese, Hindus, Africans, etc. etc. all write history base on their prospective biases would mean they all lack credibility then?

 

God reveal the true Ten Commandments that has been corrupted by early religions.