Part 30 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity>>>MOD ALERT<<<

I'll ignore the first 2 words.

I have pointed out several times where the Bible contradicts itself. If you had been following the thread you would have read them. If you haven't - go looking. Or ask Mitt.

I have no views on the Tanakh v the 'Bible'. The Tanakh is included in the Bible. My view is that Isaiah never wrote anything concerning the Christian Messiah. It is only in retrospect that Christianity has decided it fits its purpose to take a passage out of context for its own purposes. Islam has done the same by transforming the Tanakh and part of the New Testament for its purpose.

Neither Nativity story makes creditable sense if studied in detail.

Do Christians believe the Bible is true?

I already know the answers, having posted them. I don't need to clarify anything.

 

Please follow the forum rules or you will be removed from the thread so that a respectful discussion of the topic may resume.

Sincerely thanking you for your cooperation
Shangrila
Moderator

 

Sorry but it's not a fact that humans belong to the Great Ape family but rather it's an evolutionists theory that humans belong to the Great Ape family.

If we belonged to this family then it would be possible for humans to mate with these apes (orangutans, gorillas, bonobos, and chimps) but as it turns out we cannot interbreed because of differing numbers of chromosomes thus it's a fact that humans don't belong to the Great Ape family but rather it's a fact we humans belong to the Great Human family (caucasoids, negroids, mongoloids, & everyone else in between).

We read in Scripture:

Then God said, &#8220;Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.&#8221;

"So God created human beings in his own image. In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them."---Genesis 1:26-27 NLT

 

Abraham. Circa 1800BCE. Supposedly from Ur OF THE CHALDEES. The Babylonian Chaldean dynasty did not control Ur until circa 750BCE. If Moses had written Genesis he certainly wouldn't have written this. Of course the scribes of the 500 BCE period would have known Ur by this name.

Terah. He set out for Canaan. He obviously followed the fertile crescent for convenience. However why go all the way to Haran when he could have 'turned left' long before and gone the easy way. Then there was a known trail used by traders 'straight' across the desert with an oasis for watering. Less than half the journey.

Abraham. 75 years old when he left Haran at the bidding of a god he had never heard of, with promises that were impossible (his wife was barren and past the age of child bearing) and in tow was a nephew who would cause him much grief. One thing is sure. Abraham wasn't a good judge of character. And now he deserted his family. Since his father died he was head of the whole family as the eldest son, with family duties.

On arriving in Canaan there was a grievous famine in the land. Surely god could have chosen a better time to send him to Canaan.

Now comes the miracle. Sarah - in her late middle age - is deemed so attractive that Pharoah somewhere hundreds of miles away in the Egyptian capital is told of her. And Pharoah? Who had a chief wife, probably had many young princesses in his 'harem' - all given to him as gifts by other kings seeking his friendship. Some of whom disappeared from view, as one ancient letter tells us. A king who asks what has happened to the daughter he sent to Pharoah, when Pharoah asks another favour/bribe. Why should he want an old woman?
After his deception with Pharoah and Sarah Abraham is sent away from Egypt. Miraculously the famine in Canaan is over. Famines in those days didn't last 12 months. No seed one year for food and none the next year for planting.
These days seed can be purchased from other countries across the world.

The battle between the city kings. 4 on one side and 5 on the other. Good story.
What were the Kings of Elam 700 miles, Shinar 600 miles, Ellasar 600 miles and Tidal unknown, doing those distances from their cities with their armies. Cities way across the desert. Does anyone really believe these kings held power over these cities, Sodom etc. so far away.
The people (often small tribes) they defeated on their way to the battle indicates some of them travelled well over 1000 miles. In those days? And leaving their own cities very poorly guarded?
The amazing thing is that the armies of Sodom, Gomorrah etc when on the run, ran into slimepits etc. they knew where there.
By the way, when anyone tells you Abraham and his 'servants/soldiers' won a great victory, they had lots of help from men from Mamre, Eschol and Aner. Genesis 14:24.

So far it all indicates a good story. It only needed a good author.

Bed time. Back again soon.

 

Those are some distances to travel on foot .... highly improbable I'd say.

 

This entire argument is meaningless without you being able to provide proof that humans are apes.

Your argument is akin to stating...pigs are hippos...and someone else argues...No...pigs are beluga whales...and yet another person argues...No...pigs are tapirs!

 

We aren't puppet of God. The problem of whether human is belonged ape or not is in the matter.

 

how does one "correctly interpret the bible"? and who has determined what correct is?

 

Maybe the image of God is apelike.

 

"One" being interpreted to mean "a person", One does not correctly interpret the "bible". Any interpretation given by man and that man claiming it to be his interpretation (consciously or otherwise) is a private interpretation. The only ONE (not a human person) who can correctly interpret scripture is the Holy Spirit. Who has determined what is "correct"... that same Holy Spirit.

 

If you stand the Tanakh on its own, as it stood for 500+ years there would be no argument about what it meant. It was God given scriptures. Even Paul and Peter admitted that.
Because Christianity came along and decided to misinterprete the Tanakh, and take parts out of context for their own beliefs, you have the conflict. If Christianity had not come along the Tanakh would still have the same meaning today.
If, as Christians believe, the Bible is true then perhaps they would like to go back to God and tell him he was wrong when he gave Isaiah his message. He should have mentioned Jesus coming in 500+ years time. He certainly didn't.
If my view is a private interpretation then it is a private interpretation shared with millions of Jews over 2500 years, who have studied these scriptures. They, in fact, object to their being told their scriptures are wrong. Just as you object.

 

Humans being apes is fairly easy to verify regardless of the argument.

 

If there were a god and it appeared today in the form of a nonhuman ape it would no doubt be called some sort of demon by most. Or perhaps an alien.

 

Where did I say that "pre-humans" lived before the dinosaurs?

Keep in mind that it wasn't so long ago that the idea that the continents were "fixed" and the guy who suggested that they moved was vilified.
So much for "mainstream" being the correct view.

 

Why do you Creationists keep insisting that the opposite of "Creation" is an "accident? You seem to not have the slightest knowledge of the laws of Physics.

You have created a "god" in the human image complete with a bad temperament which he passed on to us and then He punishes us for behaving as he does.
And He further condemns all of humanity forever for a simple act of disobedience that makes no sense whatsoever. Are we to follow his example by punishing all our grand-children and great-grandchildren for the misbehavior of our children?
Tell me, exactly why did God not want Adam and Eve to know good from evil?

What do you think would have happened had they eaten from the Tree of LIfe instead of the Tree of Knowledge?

 

I think that extraterrestrials terraformed Earth. I have a problem with those who talk of Earth history in terms of millions of years....They really don't know how many millions or if it was really millions.

 

And they all likely are allegory for celestial occurrences in the 12 Zodiac signs. Does anyone really think that sheep-herding nomads charted the skies?

 

Who was Abraham?
In his History of the Jews, the Jewish scholar and theologian Flavius Josephus (37 - 100 A.D.), wrote that the Greek philosopher Aristotle had said: "...These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani." (Book I:22.)

Clearchus of Soli wrote, "The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called 'Jerusalem.'"

"Megasthenes, who was sent to India by Seleucus Nicator, about three hundred years before Christ, and whose accounts from new inquiries are every day acquiring additional credit, says that the Jews 'were an Indian tribe or sect called Kalani...'" (Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, Vol. I; p. 400.)

Martin Haug, Ph.D., wrote in The Sacred Language, Writings, and Religions of the Parsis, "The Magi are said to have called their religion Kesh-î-Ibrahim.They traced their religious books to Abraham, who was believed to have brought them from heaven." (p. 16.)

There are certain striking similarities between the Hindu god Brahma and his consort Saraisvati, and the Jewish Abraham and Sarai, that are more than mere coincidences. Although in all of India there is only one temple dedicated to Brahma, this cult is the third largest Hindu sect.

See more.....
http://www.viewzone.com/abrahamx.html

 

I suggest you look up the history of Astrology. Around 20,000 years ago cavemen were charting the stars in a simple way. Cave walls and markings on bones show this.
Astrology was practised in Sumerian times (late 3 - early 2nd millenium). There were many wise men in those days in that area.

Numbers mean a lot in Judaism but not necessarily other religions.

 

My post was to simply show some of the reasons I don't believe in Abraham as the Bible says.

 

I doubt seriously that any book stood on its own for 500 years. There are simply too many variables that could have caused it to topple over. I don't recall reading anything about Paul or Peter speaking about a book that stood on its own for 500 years.

Why do you suppose that I have a conflict? Are you suggesting that because Christianity being developed, that there is no longer a Tanakh that has the same wording and meaning that it had prior to Christianity? When did Christianity take control over Judaism; When did Christianity force a rework of the Tanakh so as to eliminate the original meaning of the Tanakh?

Why would a Christian want to tell God that He is wrong about anything? Why don't you go tell Him that He is wrong and that He should have done differently.

Just as I object to what?

 

Exactly! Good post WR! There is the human kind then there are the non-human kind (apes, dogs, cats, rats, etc.)

Once again I must thank you for your astute contributions WR!

 

Another Good post WR! We do know what existed in the same household between humans and apes is that some humans had apes in their homes as pets.

 

Actually you are incorrect because...Humans are not in fact APES

But it's a fact that some Humans, and not the majority of them have theorized that humans are APES.

 

You think that cavemen had it all figured out. Could you do it?
How about they got all their info from the Annunaki - those "gods" who came from the sky?