Part 34 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

One way of putting it.

Personally I don't think what the Jews claimed about Jesus being a king had little to do with it. A man with 11 followers was hardly a threat to Rome. Herod and Pilate had already dealt with uprisings by greater threats than this man could ever be. There was nothing in the Bible account we have that Jesus was against, or preached against, Rome. The Biblical stories of Jesus arrest, interrogation, trial and crucifixion are a mishmash of conflicting events, details of events done in private - yet recorded? - events that go against Jewish religious laws and ritual.

Pilate simply knew that letting Jesus go would cause trouble with the Jews and he was responsible for maintaining the peace. He was a callous, vile and viscious ruler and had already upset Caesar Augustus. Pilates first actions on entering Jerusalem to take up his position was to carry the Roman Flag with the Emperors image on it. This was against Augustus orders who knew that this was sacriligious to the Jews.

Jews Religious beliefs were respected in the Roman Empire because Rome knew the trouble going against these ardently held beliefs would cause uproar. 3 times Roman governors went against the Jewish beliefs and 3 times the Governors were slapped down by Caesar and told to undo what they had done. Even Caligula, when he ordered Caesars image to be placed in all places of worship - including the Jewish Temple - was persuaded against placing one in the Temple.

Whatever the Bible says in trying to place Pilate in a favourable light, that was not Pilates character. Peace was what concerned him.

 

Jesus had a lot more than 11 followers..
"Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)
And he pulled crowds of over 5000 and 4000 at two gigs alone (Matt 14:13, Matt 15:32), that's why the snooty priests dare not tackle him for 3 years.
Pilate meanwhile was only mildly interested, he saw that the population was split because some liked Jesus and some didn't (like with Trump today) but there was no threat to Rome so he let it go.
Eventually the priests got so fed up with JC that they brought him in for questioning and when he said straight out that he was the son of God the High Priest went ballistic (below) and talked Pilate into executing him for saying he was a King..

 

Those numbers are grossly exaggerated.. Most villages were small.. less than 500 people.

 

You are simply assuming that the Bible account is true because it is of Christian teaching. The term Messiah/Christ in the Hebrew is 'anointed one'. It did not only apply to Jesus but others like Isaiah, Jeremiah etc. Christianity has changed it into a divine attribution.
Jesus was 'a son of God'. All Jews consider themselves a 'son of god' as members of the chosen nation.

As I've said before,, when Jesus went into a desert place one day 5000 people (men) heard about where he was (how long did it take for that to get around), journey on foot many miles (how long did that take - even by donkey taxi). The whole story is simply made up. The cities were - in walking terms - hours away. As Margot says, most of the villages were small. Men would be at their daily toil. To feed 5000 would take time and darkness was around 6 p.m. People would not be in a desert place after dark. It was not safe. It seems that even a disciple carried a sword for protection wherever they went (Gethsemane). The whole story is simply made up from possibly a few bystanders who happened to see him walking by.

 

The population of the Israel area in Jesus's time was around 5 million, and the Roman troop garrison was about 600, that's a lot of eyeballs that saw him when he went on the road..

"Jesus went through all the towns and villages" (Matt 9:35)

 

1- Jesus was quite specific that he was THE one and only Son of God, that's what got him in hot water with the snooty priests.
2- Israel is about 150 miles north to south (not including the Negev desert), so if he walked say only 10 miles a day, he'd have done that 150 miles in just over a couple of weeks. His road trips lasted 3 years so that'd be ample time to criss-cross Israel literally dozens of times.
3- Think "superscience"! His replicating a few loaves and fishes was simply an example of the "grain of wheat on a chessboard" thing, where it's doubled every time on each square, and by the time the last square is reached there's a mountain of grain..

 

As far as I can see his reply was 'You have said it'.
Jesus was a Jew. He would not have said he was THE Son of God.
What Israel's size has to do with the feeding of the 5000 is beyond me. The people would have had to hear about Jesus being in a desert place, tell others, and then make their way there. No roads, mostly rough trails and probably nothing in places. No public transport, no modern communication system. I'm afraid you're living in todays conditions, not 2000 years ago. The average walking speed for a fit man is 3 mph. Soldiers can reach 5-6mph in a forced march. And from experience that is hard. These people walked on rough ground in sandals. No way would 5000 people be able to gather in that time and distance.

After having said all that these people must have been psychic. They 'knew where he was headed (in his boat) and followed him on foot' from many towns.

WOW. 5000 people all running round the Sea of Galilee. All practising for that year's Jerusalem Marathon?

Jesus life was virtually governed by adherence to the Torah (not the rules of the Pharisees), Jewish ritual and teaching. The rest is added by Christianity.

 

Argue it out with him when you meet him..
"Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”
“I am,” said Jesus.The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy" (Mark 14:61-64)
"Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." (Matt 13:16/17)

 

No.. it wasn't five million.. in 1900 the population of all of Palestine was only 350,00.

 

Well, of course Mark would know all of this .... Oh I forgot, Mark wasn't there at the time. We have only the Testimony of the Sanhedrin - who desperately wanted to get rid of Jesus.

As I have already said Messiah means 'anointed one', not the Christian interpretation. Others are accorded the same title in Judaism. Christianity has changed it.

Matthew 16:13-17. Jesus - 'who do men say that I, the son of man, am'. Jesus claims to be the son of man. Matthew throughout his gospel seeks to show Jesus as the Messiah (Jewish) who will lead his people. To do so he wrongly uses quotes from the OT to establish Jesus birth as being prophesied. Anyone who has studied the OT will know that these, in context, refer to the Jews and Jewish people. Throughout his gospel he does the same time after time.

If you've studied the OT you can see the Christian interpretation of Jewish scriptures/beliefs. Jesus baptism was simply following the Jewish use of water for cleansing - Remember Naaman and the Jordan? The temptation of Jesus was a Jewish belief that HaSatan, Jahwehs servant given the task of testing men's faith. Christianity has turned HaSatan into gods enemy to test Jesus. Both Job and Jesus passed the test. Jesus followed Jewish practises - as did his apostles in Jerusalem for many years after his death. Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism by the Romans for several decades after Jesus death. Even Paul had not completely thrown of Judaism when he was in Asia Minor.

 

When you consider that a great many of those inhabitants of Palestine were Greeks (the Decapolis) whom Jesus ignored, and Samarians (who Jesus also ignored), and Roman soldiers who kept themselves to themselves, I doubt he was that well known.

 

We do know that no one bothered to write about him during all his miraculous doings.

 

1- The people of the Decapolis (Ten Cities) LURVED Jesus to bits and flocked to his gigs in droves-
"Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matt 4:25)

2- The woman in the famous "Woman at the Well incident" was a Samaritan and the well was in Samaria, but he certainly didn't ignore her, he even told her he was the Messiah (John ch 4)

3- A Roman centurion asked JC to cure his servant (Matt ch 8 ) which he did, so the Romans were fully aware of him..

In short, JC was almost as big everywhere as Elvis and the similarities are uncanny-
"After Jesus spent the night in prayer,everybody tried to touch him because power was coming from him" (Luke 6:12-19)

 

What Jewish practices?
We know he had no beef with the Old T except it's harsher bits, but what he didn't like was the snooty priests rigid inflexible application of it, for example they wanted to stone adulteresses under the old laws, but Jesus rescued at least one from the mob.

 

Even historians can't agree, for example I've seen some estimate the population of the Israel area at the time of Jesus to be 3 million, but others say 7 million.
So 5 mill would seem to be a good compromise estimate til they figger it out..

 

You are a little naive I'm afraid. The 10 cities were Greek cities founded in the days of Alexander the Great. The teachings of Jesus would never have appealed to Greeks. Read the trouble Paul had later. Despite all you read in the Acts Chiristianity did not have a great following in Asia Minor.
Matthew again. By the way the gospel of Matthew was almost certainly not from the hand of the disciple. The writer used other sources to complete his gospel so everything was secondhand.
Woman at the well. Contact with Jesus was simply following a Jewish custom. He was passing through, thirsty, so he went to the well where a villager who saw him would offer him a drink. A traveller passing through needing somewhere to sleep would wait in the 'Market square' where someone offer hospitality.
Again with the Roman centurion, Jesus was simply a good samaritan.

As you are using Matthew so will I. 10:5........ Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not

BUT Go rather to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, and as ye go, preach, saying 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand'. John the Baptist uses the same term in chapter 3. This is the Jewish kingdom of heaven. Christianity turned it into a spiritual kingdom which was never meant in Judaism.

Jesus came to his own, to turn them back to Yahweh.

By the way, I'm only discussing what the Bible says. I'm agnostic myself.

Try imagining that the Bible is simply a book and study it against what is known about the situation, history, culture and beliefs of the time. You may find you have a very different Bible to the one you have been taught to believe in.

 

The story about the loaves and fish is about the power of sharing and hospitality. The large numbers are used to indicate that big problems can be solved by using basic rules. It's a literary device, not a real event.

 

In the Bible the word adultery can mean the worship of other gods as well as sexual activity. Think about the story. If the woman was engaged in sex she was doing it in the open or else she had a whole lot of nosy neighbors looking into her hovel. Jesus had been running all over the place telling the local yokels that he was the son of God and gathering followers as if he god himself with his witchcraft miracles. So the critics grabbed one of Jesus' loyal women followers (he was very popular with the hookers) and accused her of worshiping him. He couldn't tell them to stone her because that would be denying his claim to fame. So he put the burden back on them by saying that if they were without sin themselves to go ahead and stone her. They fell for his trap. They should have replied that since he claimed to be sinless himself that he was therefore obligated to cast the first stone at her. The critics weren't very good at thinking on their feet and Jesus got away with one.

 

If you've studied the OT you can see the Christian interpretation of Jewish scriptures/beliefs. Jesus baptism was simply following the Jewish use of water for cleansing - Remember Naaman and the Jordan? The temptation of Jesus was a Jewish belief that HaSatan, Jahwehs servant given the task of testing men's faith. Christianity has turned HaSatan into gods enemy to test Jesus. Both Job and Jesus passed the test. Jesus followed Jewish practises - as did his apostles in Jerusalem for many years after his death. Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism by the Romans for several decades after Jesus death. Even Paul had not completely thrown of Judaism when he was in Asia Minor.

Jewish practises. Circumcision. Attending the synagogue, following Jewish Festivals. Paul adapted the Jewish Paschal Lamb for Christianity I Cor. 5:7.
Even the Church (RC and to some extent CofE) have adapted Jewish ritual into their ritual.

 

I still don't know of anyone who believes the Earth is flat.

And don't forget the people who weren't Christian who thought the world was flat. Of
course you don't know this but it was a common thought.

Are you aware that the majority of Christianity accepted Aristotle's spherical Earth
theory? Aristotle was prior to Christianity. Christianity isn't against science, either.

That's easy. God isn't a myth. Can you provide evidence that he is? I'd love to hear
your reply.

 

You've provided nothing reasonable. God is real. Deal with it.

 

Yes. He did. The Jews don't want to believe it even though the Bible is very
clear that He did. Gee, we've been through this and you still don't get it.

This is word for word from a Jewish site which I read last night. Of course you want us
to believe you said this. You poor souls can't accept that he came and is coming again.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/

Read the entire Bible. It's irrefutable.

This, too, is word for word from a Jewish site. Not an original thought from you as I knew
from the beginning.

Yes, Jesus is coming again and will fulfill the prophecies. Read the Bible and stop relying
upon someone else to tell you what to think.

Yes. The site you quoted mistranslated the fact that it was a virgin birth.

All of the above is from a very narrow point of view. One that must fit eveything to
uphold their denying of Jesus coming as Messiah. I really feel sorry for these people.

Once again your source is incorrect. Since you're quoting I'll do the same thing for this answer.

Question: "What is the curse of Jeconiah?"

Answer: Jeconiah, also called “Jehoiachin” (1 Chronicles 3:16, NIV) and “Coniah” (Jeremiah 22:24),
was a king of Judah who was deported as part of the Babylonian captivity (Esther 2:6;
1 Chronicles 3:17). He is also listed in the genealogy of Jesus, in Joseph’s family line (Matthew 1:12).

The curse of Jeconiah is found in Jeremiah 22. First, the LORD likens the king to a signet ring on
God’s hand—a ring that God will pull off (verse 24). Then, God pronounces a curse: “Record this
man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper,
none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah” (verse 30).

The problem is that the curse of Jeconiah seems to invalidate Jesus’ right to the throne of David.
The Davidic Covenant promised that the Messiah, the “Son of David,” would reign forever on
Jerusalem’s throne (1 Chronicles 17:11-14). If Jesus is a descendant of Jeconiah, then how can He
be the Messiah, since the curse bars any of Jeconiah’s descendants from assuming David’s throne?

There are three possible solutions to this difficulty. First, the “offspring” of Jeconiah mentioned in the
curse could be a limited reference to the king’s own children—his immediate offspring, in other words.
On a related note, the phrase “in his lifetime” could apply to the entire verse. The curse would only be
in force while the king lived. This is exactly what happened, as Jeconiah was not successful as a
king (he only reigned for three months before he surrendered to Nebuchadnezzar’s forces), and none
of his sons (he had seven of them, 1 Chronicles 3:17–1 reigned over Judah.

A second solution concerns the virgin birth. Jesus only had one human parent, Mary. His mother was
of David’s line, but not through Jeconiah (Luke 3:31). Joseph was Jesus’ legal father, but not His
physical one. Thus, Jesus was of royal blood through Mary, but the curse of Jeconiah stopped with
Joseph and was not passed on to Jesus.

A third possible solution is that God reversed the curse on Jeconiah’s family. This is hinted at by the
prophet Haggai, who told Zerubbabel, Jeconiah’s grandson, that God would make him a “signet ring”
on God’s hand (Haggai 2:23). Zerubbabel was blessed by God as the governor of Judea, and he
prospered in that role when the Jewish exiles returned to Jerusalem. The “signet ring” imagery of
Jeconiah’s curse is repeated in Zerubbabel’s blessing, which must be more than coincidence.
Several rabbinic sources teach that Jeconiah repented in Babylon and that God forgave him and
lifted the curse.

Here's my source.
https://www.gotquestions.org/curse-of-Jeconiah.html

You would do well to stop acting like you know what you're talking about and start providing the
links from everything you Google, cut and paste. That's very disingenuous of you not to do so.

 

gotquestions is a really poor source.

 

Yes, the OT God and the NT God are one and the same, so it's only natural there's some overlap; but God didn't like the bad example the snooty fundy priests were setting, so he sent JC to slap them around..

 

If you mean the god of abraham, yes. There's as much evidence as zeus, vishnu, and others. All myths. Got evidence for not a myth? No, why not?
If you read, I showed you who believes in the flat earth. Right here in this thread, form a page or 2 ago. He is your bretheren.