Rose knowingly took action that had a mandatory punishment of lifetime ban. Cobb never did. saying Cobb was a criminal for playing hard, is laughable considering that is what Rose was famous for. Apparently, it is fine for Rose to truck a catcher standing in front of the plate without the ball, in a meaningless exhibition game, and break his collarbone, but it is not OK for Cobb to use the standard sliding practice of the day, and come into the plate with feet up, when a catcher was blocking the plate without the ball (and that photo (see link below) is the origin of the 'Cobb trying to hurt people by sliding high' blather). Apparently, Cobb is a criminal for playing the game hard, in the accepted manner of the day, but Rose who also played hard, and is an actual convicted felon who served time in prison, is not a criminal. The simple fact is, there is no reason for Cobb to not be in the Hall, while there is a straight-forward, factual reason for Rose's exclusion. http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/31...RBm7GnIA9jGUSqb0sFIHCkQ93Z186k79plKepdaSfRQ==
I don't have a problem with Rose's play. I am pointing out the stupidity in blaming Cobb for playing hard, while touting Rose. Your statement (What Rose did to Ray Fosse was just good hard baseball. That's the way the game was played up until they pussified it a couple years ago. applies equally to Cobb, and the way the game was played in his day.
I agree with all of that. Did you know that Cobb and fellow HOF outfielder Tris Speaker were also involved in gambling when Cobb was managing the Tigers and Speaker managed the Indians. It was alleged that they routinely tanked games to each other's teams late in the season when their teams were both out of the running. Baseball commissioner Landis chose not to investigate these allegations because he thought it would hurt the game at that time. Pitcher Dutch Leonard was also involved. I think Rose has paid his debt and that he deserves to be in the Hall along with Cobb and Speaker.
Though I do not think it is a giant miscarriage of justice for Rose to not be in the Hall, I would have no problem if they commissioner lifted the ban. My problem is the other poster saying Rose should be in, but a 'criminal' like Cobb should not, calling him a criminal for playing the game as hard as he could within the standards of his era, just like rose. As for Cobb and Speaker betting, it is likely they bet, but I have never seen anything to even suggest they threw games. And it happened when they were players, not coaches. The accusation was that they bet on the 1919 Series (the Black Sox series that they were not participants in). And, even at that time, there was no rule in place that betting on games, even games you were part of, resulted in a ban. That rule came about afterwards, as a result of the White Sox throwing the series.
Yet Roger Maris is the only player ever to win two MVP awards, and not be included in the Hall of Fame. And, if you were a Little League kid in 1961, following the Mantle-Maris HR assault on Babe Ruth, you would understand that it was, in fact, THE STORY of 1961, even more so than Kennedy's first year as President or our astronauts going into space. Baseball was still our national past time and king of sports, the American Football League began play that year, but nothing compares to the Maris assault and breaking Ruth's record. That's the trouble with the Hall of Fame - is is centered on statistics - not stories - and the Mantle-Maris story deserves consideration for that year in determining if he should be in the HOF. In fact, most baseball fans I talk to think Roger is in the hall and are surprised to find out he isn't. Most of the writer's voting on the ballot never saw him play anyways...........
Stan, you're biased because you're a Cardinals fan and Maris played on the '67-68 Cardinals. Simply stated, Maris' career was too short to be considered Hall of Fame worthy. He retired at age 34 having only played in 1,463 games.
That you, great post, and that is my reaction from my days as a kid growing up on baseball, and a confirmed Yankee hater. Dad was a Brooklyn Dodger fan, naturally, I became a Dodger fan, and remain so today, despite living in Miami. Marlins' fan too, somehow we have two World Series championship's to our credit, and will host the 2017 All Star Game. As a kid, always was a National League fan, remained a Dodger fan because I lived in LA for a few years. But, in my later years, accept the fact that when the New York teams are playing well, as the Yankees are and the Mets (finally) are this year, it is always good for baseball. Even statistically, Maris rates as a HOF member, and your posts points out that baseball doesn't always fairly assess the talents and contributions of great players, who played the game the correct way, always. Roger was one of those, the injuries and the pressure of NYC's media chasing Ruth's record, certainly probably contributed to his death at a young age. He played excellent in St.Louis also as a Candinal, and was much more comfortable there, out of the limelight and big city atmosphere of the Yankees. His reward from the Busch family when he retired from the game, was the Budweiser dealership in Gainsville, Florida, still run by his son's. Most people forgot all about Roger until McGuire's assault on his HR record in the steroid era, I at least give credit to Mark McGuire for bringing the Maris family to St.Louis for the series when he broke the single season HR record. Those three, McGuire; Sosa (don't know if he has the stats for the HOF); and Bonds, to get into the Hall of Fame, the league is debating whether to erase 1/3'rd of their statistical accomplishments. Good idea, good way to settle the performance of steroid era players (add Roger Clemens into that group); Other than Sosa, erasing 1/3'rd of their stats won't keep them out of the HOF, even with reduced statistics, Bonds and McGuire go in, eventually. But as for Rose? His betting (and he did bet on the Reds to lose, and controlled that with pitcher selection's), is cheating, and sheds doubt not only on Cincinnati accomplishment's during his tenure as a manager, but on the teams which beat the Reds in those years and won championship's. Would they have won those championship's, if they hadn't been able to beat the Red straight up legit? That's why you keep Pete Rose out of the HOF, at least until he is departed...........Thanks for posting and remembering Roger Maris - loving baseball - during those days as a kid - the Yankee's and particularly Mantle-Maris-Berra-Howard, scared the heck out of me every World Series they were in that I watched on TV. As for Koufax? Unhittable for the final six years of his career, cut short by elbow problems. But from 1960-1966, nobody could beat the guy. By his own admission, Sandy Koufax said he didn't become a great pitcher by trying to strike guys out, he only became a great hitter when he tried to get guys to try to hit his stuff. Classic. One, if not, the best, and with Drysdale-Koufax, the Dodger's were never going to have long losing streaks with them starting every fourth day......
Maris is NOT the only player with 2 MVP's not in the Hall Most baseball fans are casual and fairly ignorant. Just because the people you talk to think he is in the Hall does not make him Hall worthy. Where do you get the information that the writers who voted never saw him play? He retired in 1968. His first year of eligibility was 1974. And he only got 21% of the vote. Are you actually saying that the writers in 1974, 1975, 1976, etc., never saw him play?
Exceptional informative article, not often one learns something new, or truthful, on an internet posting board. Usually social media posters like us follow Journalism's Number 1 rule - "When the legend and the truth collide - print the legend." If all of that information about Ty Cobb is true, surprising how he got a reputation as a racist, and that it wasn't ever reported in the mainstream media. Also, interesting that the most racially segregated place in Cobb's hometown was the Augusta National Golf Course, home of "The Masters" golf tournament. Very few Blacks played the course as professional golfers over the years, and it only has just recently allowed women as member's, added two of them. Forgot the first, but the other one was Condi Rice. Excellent background, well researched, certainly opened my eyes, and I have several books on baseball's first century of existence, which covered Cobb's era. The knock on the guy on the field was that he was a ferocious competitor, intimidating, and a full fledged racist. When Jackie Robinson came into the league with the Dodger's, although it was before my birth, he was met all over with mega racist hatred. I haven't read anywhere that cities and towns, particularly Baltimore and Philadelphia, welcomed the man on the baseball diamond in his early years. Cincinnati also was another ugly city in their hatred of Robinson and blacks in general in the game. Seems one would have read if Ty Cobb stood up for, and defended Jackie Robinson, and his entry into Major League Baseball, and that would have been a pretty solid news story of the time. Anyway's thanks for an excellent read and post, as I pointed out, not often one learns much that is new on the internet; I bookmarked this article for further reference, as I didn't want to lose it...........
I will buy Dwight Evans as one of those top right fielder's, but Maris does stand out in his playing career defensively, as he does in almost everything he did on the field. He played the game and conducted himself correctly throughout his entire playing career and was truly respected by his peers. It was only the mega number of newspapermen who follow the Yankee's around all of the time, who gave him the reputation of being difficult and a bad interview and couldn't stand the press. In truth, he was intimidated by that gaggle of sportswriters following the Yankees, and in 1961, when he tackled Ruth's record, and engaged in that epic HR battle with Mickey Mantle, they were all over him, the pressure was so bad, he started to lose his hair from it. Remember, the year before with NY, he hit 49 Home runs, so he knocked 102 dingers in two season's, and hit more HR's than the legendary Mantle each year he played for the Yankees. When he was traded to the Cardinals, it was a much more comfortable city and fit for him. He ended up playing 1B there. The comment that Mickey Mantle said he was one of the greatest players he ever saw is accurate. Mantle made that statement about only one other player of his era, that was Stan Musiel of the Cardinals. Mantle said one of his greatest regrets was he wasted years of his talent in partying and booze (he died of cirosis of the liver), while a star like Stan Musiel did everything correctly, getting the most out of his abilities to the max. A dying Stan Musiel quietly slipped into the church where Bob Costas was giving the eulogy for Mantle's remains (a wonderful speech), to witness the final tribute to a man I still believe was the greatest player ever in baseball.............
Let him in. It's been long enough. If you're going to let records stand put up by proven cheaters and justify them with asterisks, you're not cheapening the game any further by putting Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame. At least Rose's stats were honest.
Sports are not a perfect world. Beanballs, which have been significantly addressed, and umpires given specific powers to deal with them, have pretty much disappeared from the game now. On field, bench clearing brawls, once common in baseball, also have disappeared, and most baseball fights are one-swing wonders only, the rest is pushing and shoving. However, cornerbacks, linebackers and defensive linemen still attempt to "kill" the opposing QB in the NFL, a fact bore out by the New Orleans Saint's "bounty" on hits on the QB, and it has resulted in most clubs wasting a roster spot to carry three QB's yearly. I happen to be a hockey fan, and could name you just about 50-players who should have gone to prison over the years for their violent activities and fisticuffs on the ice, of a tremendously rugged sport. Bobby Clarke and his company of Philadelphia Flyer thugs would be at the top of the list, and the Islander's goaltender Billy Smith was noted for spiking onrushing forwards and center's routinely with his stick, and getting away with it from the refs for his entire playing career, which included four Stanley Cups. In his prime, anybody who ever laid a hand or fist or check on Wayne Gretsky, got an automatic two minute penalty. Six Flyers once went up in the stands in Buffalo attacking fans with their sticks, until they realized they happened to be outnumbered 16,500 to six, and had to be rescued by the cops. Even as stellar a talent as Bobby Orr once dove into the Buffalo Sabres bench one night, I was there in the cheap seats and saw it. I ran into him years later at an East Coast Hockey League game in Norfolk, Virginia when he was signing autographs, and mentioned it. He sheepishly replied to my reminding him of it, by saying "Dumbest think I ever did in my career, the Sabres got in more 'stick-time' before my guys could rescue me, than an entire police department did." Hockey is a sport like that, and well into the 1980's and later, player's had an option of wearing a helmet or not. Jack Tatum put Darryl Stingley of the Patriots in a wheelchair with a broken neck for life, during his playing career. Cobb's playing career was one of aggressive hostility and intimidation of opponents and psychological "in their heads" actions, thus the story about him sitting on the dugout steps polishing his spikes, and leering aggressively like a wild dawg in warmups. Had to have a serious effect on the thinking of infielders on the opponents side. Of course, Cobb was a sensational talent to begin with, so anything he set his mind to, he was sort of the "Roy Hobbs" of his time. The truest sports movie ever filmed? "Slapshot" with Paul Newman................yep, sports isn't fair.........
Ray Fosse of the Cleveland Indians would probably agree with this post - Rose ended his stellar and promising All Star career......
Other than permitting his opponent's to win against the Reds, thus altering and laying suspicion on every pennant race a team that regularly beat Cincinnati was involved in. Did the Cardinals or Dodgers et al, actually win playing by the rules, or did Pete Rose, as the Reds manager, betting on his Reds to lose to those regular pennant chasing teams, give them the victories on a silver platter. If one could only dig up the evidence of the number of times Pete Rose sent out a pitcher who couldn't beat a certain team ever, to start against them, and subsequently the Reds got beat, that not only filled Rose's financial pockets, he is a habitual gambler, but proved detrimental to every team that received the gift of his cheating, and didn't win fair and square. You seem to have a hard time understanding this - Rose's betting on Cincinnati to lose when he, as manager, was in the position to determine the outcome, and deciding to line his pockets with cash, instead of being honest, puts an entire suspicious pale over every season he managed Cincinnati, and deprives every other team that beat them, or team's whose fortunes were altered because Rose set up Cincy to lose, and cost clubs like the Mets or Atlanta to lose out on wild card and pennant races. was hugely detrimental to every club in the National League and baseball as a whole. So he got banned - for life - and his exploits on the field as the greatest singles hitter in baseball, doesn't absolve his later cheating as the manager............
I give up. You are simply covering your ears and screaming "PETEROSEISGOD!" He broke the single most important rule in the game, and he should have been CRUSHED for it. Ban him for life, expunge all his records, forbid him from ever setting foot in any professional baseball stadium under any circumstances. I would have been fine with his team forfeiting all games he managed.
None of them should be in, either. The entire Steroid Era should be wiped: all records expunged, all players ineligible for the Hall of Fame, no exceptions. Wipe it out.
Are you just talking about the players that were proven to have cheated or do you mean everybody that played during that era?
Those injuries occurred because he hustled and gave 100% every night unlike so many of today's players who take the day off just for having a mild migraine. He hustled so strenuously that team mate Bill Skowron called him the greatest defensive player of his time. Furthermore, it is well established, though not generally known, that the x-rays showing the serious injury to his hand was not disclosed to him (his hand had initially been broken in 1963 and the injury aggravated in 64, 65, and 66). This is what ruined his career. Had this happened to any other player their careers would have ended. Again, this doesn't happen nowadays because pitchers are no longer allowed to use a knock down pitch anymore and the player's union protects the players unlike those days. Maris definitely belongs in the Hall.
I think all of the records and wins of the New England Patriots should be expunged from the record books. They were caught cheating multiple times in an effort to gain unfair advantages in big games. What Rose did is nothing compared to those cheaters.
Take Maris's three big years of 1960, 61, and 62 where he hit a total of 133 HRs which averages to 44 per year. If he had not been injured (IIRC it was a fastball in his hands which caused the injury) and there had been no undisclosed x-rays, had he average 44 HRs for the next 5 years he would have ended his career with about 475 HRs. Nobody would have denied him entry into the Hall. BTW, he was only 34 when he retired so it is a good bet that his career would have been longer if he had not been injured and team management hadn't deceived him like they did. - - - Updated - - - Well, at last we agree 100% on something. Peace ....
Like I mentioned a bit earlier, I have no problem at all with Rose's play on Fosse. However, the ret@rdation required to classify Cobb as a 'criminal' for playing hard within the standards of his era, and then to give Rose a pass for the same thing is astonishing.
you nailed it. could not have said it better myself. that is why I wont contribute one dime to the NFL.they are so corrupt. Don Shula was correct when he recently called Billy Boy what myself and thousands of others around america have called him,Belicheat. the fact that so many former NFL players are calling Brady a liar and cheater INCLUDING his former center that played on two superbowl teams and his own idol Joe Montana as well,is the proof in the pudding the cheatriots are the spoiled rich brats of the NFL that get special priviledges other teams are not afforded and that this is indeed a scandal that rivals the black sox scandal which again is why i will not contribute one dime to the corrupt NFL because it is so corrupt. The cheatriots are the rich spoiled brats of the NFL and Goddel should be fired for having his a$$ up Krafts all these years.If a team like cleveland did this,their coach would be suspended an entire season and the owner would lose ownership of the team.Pete Rose has NOTHING on the cheatriots as cheaters.FACT.
