Pete Rose gambled as a manager and thus shouldn't be allowed in the HOF as a manager. What he did as a manager had not bearing on what he accomplished as a player. In my opinion he should be eligible as a player, not as a manager. But what Rose did only effect himself, what players on steroids did was effect the whole game, a whole era of players. The steroid era made all baseball records sort of null and void. The steroid era did more harm to the game than Rose or Shoeless Joe Jackson could ever dream of. Yet there is no ban for them. Rose didn't make a single stat meaningless, steroid players did. I think their records and stats should be struck from the records books. In my mind I have already done that. To me Maris still hold the single season home run record and Hammering Hank Aaron is still the all time leader in home runs. To me the steroid era is just a blank page in the history of baseball.
The suggestion has been bandied about that Bonds; Sosa; McGuire and Clemens should forfeit 1/3rd of their career statistics for steroid use. Even doing that, all four would wind up in the Hall Of Fame based on their merits, and statistics. As for Pete Rose, no, you can't differentiate the player from the manager. As a player, Rose routinely associated with, and bet on games he played in, it really never was alleged that he bet on the Reds to lose as a player, however, that activity is a one year ban under MLB rules. When he became the manager, and controlled the outcome of the game, usually through his pitching choices, throwing pitchers with poor records against top tier teams, knowing they would lose, that affected the game's outcome. It also was his signal to his gambling friends that the game was fixed, and Pete Rose had about a dozen runners placing bets for him, against the Reds, on those games. He accepted the lifetime ban so the fact that he bet on the Reds to lose, and controlled the outcome, would not be made public as part of the report against him, which was staggeringly obvious and solid that he bet on Cincinnati to lose games. If you are innocent of those charges, and they interviewed every known gambler and runner who assisted Pete Rose in this underhanded and sleazy deal, than you don't sing off on a lifetime ban from the game of baseball, even if you just happened to be the greatest singles hitter in the game. If Rose only was guilty of betting ON the Reds to WIN, and associating with known gamblers, they would have simply given him a single season ban. A repetition would get a lifetime one. The steroid jerks changed the game significantly, but baseball wasn't willing to pay attention, they were having too much good publicity and media and public attention in a renaissance of the game, with home runs flying out of parks left-right-center, to pay much attention. Right up until the moment Sammy Sosa broke his bat and it was discovered it was loaded with cork. That was the start of the end for them. Baseball hasn't banned any of them - their records still stand, they are on the Hall Of Fame ballot legitimately, but the writer's probably will punish them for a couple of years for the "integrity" of the game. Rose? There is nothing to salvage, he never did any of the things that were required of him; community service; counseling for gambling; full confession; that were required when he signed his lifetime ban. Baseball is well rid of him, and any memories of his performance. The guy with the greatest name in the history of the game - Charlie Hustle - tossed it all down the toilet, not through enhancing drugs for performance sake, but throwing games to other teams, for financial gain.............
Say what you will, Rose didn't ruin 10-15 seasons or more. Rose didn't make them irrelevant. Every one of Rose's hits was earned honestly, not the home runs or wins by steroid users. The sad part about it the Bonds, Clemons, etc were good enough to make the HOF on their own merits. They decided not to. I hope not a single one ever gets admitted into the Hall. Rose earned his record, the others didn't. For me Rose's transgression as a manager was far less than those steroid users. My solution is to ban them all. That would be the only fair way. Then next to Bonds home records the term Steroid user should be place. Rose at least didn't tarnish his performance on the field, the steroid user certainly did.
Not a bad suggestion at all, IMHO, but did the Cardinals, Giants or Cubs actually WIN anything with these guys? Bonds seemed to be injured quite a lot, and the Giants twice lost to the old Florida Marlins in playoff's, both season's the Marlins won the championship (1997 and 2003). Clemens ended up in a couple of World Series, one of those 2003 with the Yankees pitching against the Marlins, that was the Josh Beckett year, and also the year when the Marlins knocked off San Francisco and the Cubs, down 1-3, to make it to the World Series. So, we really are only talking about one, maybe two season's that the steroid guys effected. What you really are attempting to compare is apples and oranges, if San Francisco, Chicago Cubs (really), or St.Louis dominated the era when McGuire, Bonds and Sosa played in, than perhaps you would have a case for tossing their records. But, they certainly were not the only ones using steroids to enhance performance, and Pete Rose, to our knowledge, never took anything that would enhance his performance as a player, he certainly earned everything on the field. However, America - the fans, don't tolerate cheating well, and Major League Baseball itself, has had a ban against gambling since 1920 - that's 95-years, in which "Shoeless" Joe Jackson and the rest of the Chicago eight, have been and remain (their memories and records), banned from the sport, and subsequently from the Hall of Fame. At least two of those White Sox players have the necessary records to have easily been elected into the Hall of Fame. One doesn't know, except Pete Rose, how much money he happened to make cheating by betting on his Reds to lose games, nor how many games he effected with his betting activities, and that is even worse than using every trick and concoction you can, to enhance your performance as a player. MLB knew about the steroid use, and they finally banned it, but it hasn't been banned for 95-years, and other players since have been thrown out of the league for using them. Rose invalidated his right to recognition and admiration as a player by his cheating as a manager, effecting far more games betting on his Reds to lose than Bonds - Sosa - McGuire and Clemens, who, yes, had the talent to make history in baseball without the steroids, but took them anyways, ever did. I don't own a MLB club, nor happen to be a Hall Of Fame sportswriter with a vote, if I did, would vote to keep Rose out, but won't be around 95-years from now, so don't particularly care. But, in view of the way baseball marks the time and changing of the seasons in this nation, my bet is, even after he is dead and can't celebrate election, Pete Rose won't be admitted into the Hall of Fame. That's the entire point of his lifetime ban, so he isn't celebrated as a cheat and gambler who threw games effecting pennant races, and compromised the integrity of an entire franchise and league, not just individual performance............
Good post. Personally I do not care if Rose is elected or not into the HOF. I just get peeved like all get out that the steroid users are still eligible and Rose is not. In my mind Rose earned everyone of his hits, Bonds, Sosa, Clemons et. al. did not. If I had a vote for the HOF, I would vote Rose in way ahead of the steroid class. And yes, baseball knew all about steroids but with all the excitement generated by the home runs, baseball chose to look the other way. I suppose I should be more peeved at baseball in general than the steroid users, but I'm not. My childhood was spent when baseball was king, when college football reigned above pro football. I am still a baseball fan, but not even close to the one I was as a kid. All the strikes, the steroids, the canceling of the world series left me kind of high and dry.
Pete Rose should be inducted into the hall of fame. He's one of the greatest players of all time. It's just a personal vendetta that's keeping him out.
Don't know if you saw my earlier post Tahuyaman, but the Baseball Hall Of Fame in Cooperstown, New York, isn't affiliated with the profession of Major League Baseball in any way whatsoever. It is a private enterprise, whose election committee is composed, not of baseball people, but baseball sportswriters, one from each city with a major league team in the American or National League. Lets not get it confused - the Hall Of Fame is NOT keeping Pete Rose out, Major League Baseball IS. Unless the commish lifts the lifetime ban against Pete Rose, he isn't affiliated in any manner with MLB, and to be put onto the Hall Of Fame ballot, you must have been a member in good standing with Major League Baseball, which just recently said "No Way" to lifting the ban against Rose. Thus - he can't be placed on the ballot for any reason whatsoever, by the Hall Of Fame, a shrine to baseball, but a separate entity all to itself. The Hall Of Fame is also one of the major purchasers of baseball memorabilia, like the bat and ball Rose set his all time hits record with; the bat Roger Maris hit his 61st home run with in 1961 (the ball was auctioned off by the guy who caught it for $5,000 I believe). Major League Baseball is not affiliated with the Cooperstown Baseball Hall Of Fame, it happens to be a common error among fans, who believe the Hall Of Fame is keeping Pete Rose out - they are not - Rose isn't eligible to even be put on their ballot................
I know what the baseball hall of fame is and who elects the members. Sports media people are mostly former nerds who never played a down, a quarter or an out in anything. They dislike Pete Rose with a passion.
As a baseball fan, I loved Pete Rose as a player, and the Big Red Machine, led by Sparky Anderson; Pete Rose; Johnny Bench; Don Gullett and Tony Perez. They wiped the N.Y. Yankee's out in a 4-0 sweep in 1974, and than played one of the most classic World Series ever in 1975 against the Red Sox, winning it in seven games. That was the series Pudge hit the famous 13th inning HR that tied up the series 3-3, and set up a 7th game. The sight of him at home plate, jumping up and down, and waving that shot down the LF line at Fenway Park, one of the very first uses of isolation television shots in sports, is embedded in just about every MLB fan's mind. Of coure, "goofey footer" Bill Lee tried to throw one of those epis pitches past Tony Perez with the game tied in the 7th inning of Game 7, and Perez hit a shot that landed in Cape Cod, and the Big Red Machine went onto their second straight title. This same team was the first victim of the famous Oakland A's three peat World Champions. Rose was a respected, hustling, exciting ball player, like by everybody for his famous "Charlie Hustle" attitude. He ended Cleveland's All Star catcher, Ray Fosse's career in the All Star Game, by bowling him over separating his shoulder racing home with the winning run for the National League. Still hard to believe Fosse even got up off the ground after Rose drove right through him. All that is admirable, as is getting the MLB record for most hits by a player. The sports media people, well, I wouldn't call them nerds, but sportswriters. No, they never played the game of baseball or football, but they understand the game, understand corruption, keep the game honest, and that's why McGuire; Bonds; Sosa and Clemens will wait awhile before eventually being put in the Hall of Fame. None of them were thrown out of the league. Their doping and steroid use was to enhance performance while Pete Rose's actions as the Manager of the Reds, throwing game for money, is a much more serious offense - one so serious that MLB banned him for life, and it invalidated all the great performances he had on the field of play. Instead of trying to win championship's as the Manager of the Cincinnati Reds, Pete Rose robbed every Cincinnati fan, and every baseball fan, from an honest game and performance, for money. That's why he is banned, why he will stay banned, and the hits record - nobody cares about it at all. Cheating to enhance performance - one thing; cheating to make money by throwing your team in the toilet, disgracing the uniform of a great franchise, and handing their opponents victories they didn't earn so you could make money, makes Rose a bum, once a bum, always a bum, and baseball decided to keep him in Bumville - citing NO WAY on reinstatement, which would make him eligible for the HOF. We know what he did on the field - it doesn't require a shrine or plague in Cooperstown, N.Y. to celebrate it, and that is what the sportswriters and MLB are making sure of - Mr. Rose will never get to celebrate his playing career as a HOF member, because he disgraced the game as a manager.............
Not including Pete Rose in the HOF is ridiculous. He is the all time hits leader, has three world titles, has batting titles, many multiple all star selections, etc. If you're going to keep someone out like Cobb because he is "racist," then you might as well keep everyone out. Everybody who has ever lived has prejudices. You think you're special because you're black? Well, I guess that special snowflake status should keep out one of the greatest players in history. Spiking people the way Cobb did is not a crime. Umpires used to get beat up for bad games and bad calls. The game was much different then. You can't evaluate it in the context of your liberal metrosexuality. I think doing steroids is much worse that betting on your own team. If you're going to use the logic that Rose betting affected the outcome of games, then certainly steroids fits that logic. The other problem with that logic is that players have always done some kind of substances, including speed. It did not start with steroids. If you're going to go after everybody's flaws, then might as well bar Babe Ruth too. He was likely a womanizer while married, which I say is much, much worse than betting on your own team.
By the way, the Reds swept the Yanks in 1976, not 1974. The replays of Fisk are also overdone. Cincinnati won that series in 7 games, but they keep focusing on game six. The Reds were behind when Anderson gave his team a pep talk. He told them they have 12 outs to get it done when they were behind. They got it done. The Fisk home run is a dumb footnote hardly worthy of all the attention it gets.
There appears to be a disconnect between what Pete Rose did verses who Pete Rose is. Pete Rose bet on baseball, on his own team when he was the manager. This sets up the potential to intentionally influence the score of the game to win a bet. Behavior like this delegitimizes the sport itself. If a player bets his team to lose and throws the game by under-performing...frankly it's no longer a sport at that point. The integrity of the game itself is at risk. The steroid era is another issue and yes it's cheating, but the Pete Rose issue involves betting on baseball and betting on a game you're a participant in. Managing a team is participating in it. A decision a manager makes can effect the outcome. Any sort of gambling associated with betting on the outcome of a game you're an active participant in is not tolerated. Pete Rose made the choice to not only bet on baseball, but on his own team...common sense would dictate this effects the integrity of the game. Pete Rose did not care about the integrity of the game...Pete Rose cares about Pete Rose. He bet on his own team to make money, never mind how it might effect the integrity of the sport. This is about gambling on baseball, and on games you are participating in. Doing so only indicates how narcissistic this man was that he cared so little about preserving the game's core integrity. How it might look to bet on a game you're managing, even if you only bet to win. It looks bad... There is even evidence from a bookie's notebook he bet on the Reds while actually a player. No evidence he bet to lose, but nevertheless, it looks sketchy to do this. It creates an element of doubt he played to win at all times...it creates a scenario Pete Rose intentionally threw a game to win a bet even if no evidence exists. Betting on your own team is a HUGE, unforgiveable...error in judgment, even if you bet to win. It shows a complete lack of caring about the intergrity of the sport itself. He does not deserve the HOF. This isn't about his statistics as a player..this is about making a choice and placing your wallet above the value of the game itself and no one is bigger than the game. He does not deserve to ever be in the HOF while he's alive anyway....perhaps posthumously...but what he did is indicative of the fact he placed his gambling addiction over preserving the integrity of the sport he owes everything to.
Pretty sure Babe Ruth got in a gamble mess during his playing career and was forced to sit out a year also. You guys are just not getting it. Pete Rose bet on the Reds to lose, and set the lineups, particularly the pitchers, up in such a way that it was usually probable the Reds would lose. When he announced his starting pitchers, in certain games, that was an indication to the gambling element that the fix was in, the Reds would probably lose, and to bet heavily on the opponent to win. Deprived MLB, the National League and the Cincinnati Reds faithful fans of many victories. The job of the manager is to put the best lineup out on the field in an effort to win the game, not the worst one, and bet against them routinely as Rose did. That is why he is out in MLB, and staying out. Yep - he holds the hit record - big deal - what he cost his team, his fans, his following and the game is much worse, and invalidates the magnificent accomplishments he made on the field as a player...........
Wouldn't try to sell that line in Beantown, it is a city known for beer, sports and Irish revenge. What is as interesting as Pudge's home run, as dramatic as it was, is the fact that Bernie Carbo twice tied the game up with home runs earlier. Johnny Bench stood at the plate laughing and said " I don't believe it - YOU? " Carbo also did it in Cincinnati in the same series.
Good evaluation of Rose the player, and Rose the person. He signed off on a Lifetime Ban, because the next thing that was going to be released in the Dodd Report (think that was it), was the fact that he routinely bet on the Reds, as Manager, to LOSE! That destroys the integrity of the game - for both teams on the field, the fans in the stands, and all fans of the game, period. Rose didn't want that part of the report released, if he only bet on the Reds to win, it would have been a one-year ban under the rules - not a lifetime one. The Chicago White Sox in the 1919 World Series with Cincinnati, took the gamblers money, and underperformed against a team they probably should have won the series 5-1 (it went 9-games in those days). No way were the 1919 Cincinnati Reds going to beat the Chicago White Sox, who are forever known as the "Black Sox." In addition to betting on the Reds to lose games, which he could effect as their manager, Pete Rose never did any of the things MLB asked him to to, which he agreed to do, to mitigate in any way, his betting against his team. Confession; community service; gambling counseling. Since the very day Pete Rose was banned from baseball, he has done nothing to accomplish what the league wanted him to do - so he is still a non-person when it comes to his status in Major League Baseball - he no longer has any, and whether he set the most hits record or not means absolutely nothing today..............
Babe Ruth never sat out an entire year. I have not heard of these allegations with any consequences. Are you maybe thinking of someone else? There is no evidence or suggestion that Rose bet on the Reds to lose. He always bet on them to win.
Pffft. Boston sucks balls. I'll take St Louis and your Cardinals over those ill-talking drunkards any day. Boston acts like they have some type of real rivalry with the Yanks. I can't stand the Yanks, but I will tip my hat to Steinbrenner, Torre, and the way they ran their organization, and what they've done in the league's history. Boston's only real claim to fame is coming back from the 3 game to zero playoff deficit. Boston did well to get their recent titles, but talking about this rivalry is retarded.
The Boston - Yankee rivalry has been in effect for 50-plus years, and New York always seems to have the upper hand. Throughout their playing careers, there always were suggestions that the Sox would try to trade Left Hand HOF member Ted Williams to the Yankees for Joe DiMaggio, so both could take advantage of the short porch in RF at Yankee Stadium, and the Green Monster in LF at Fenway Park. Nothing ever came of it or course. The rivalry was established early when Boston traded Babe Ruth, at the time a magnificent pitcher, to the Yankees for money. To my knowledge, only three right hand hitters ever won the American League HR title; Tony Conigliaro; Jim Rice, and I think Jackie Jenson. Even Johnny Bench of the Reds said the "Green Monster" wasn't THAT easy to knock a ball over. We all know the short porch at Yankee Stadium was perfect for left hand pitchers. BTW, the Yankee late success over the years, really comes from Joe Torre bringing the National League brand of baseball to the American League with the Yankee talent. The Red Sox? They won because John Henry copied "Bill Ball" as the Red Sox won their championship. I am not a particular fan of the Yankees, although it always is good for baseball or any other sport, when New York teams are doing well - as for Boston, I never think about em.............
I know that's wrong...off the top of my head, Manny Ramirez led in 2004. Alex Rodriguez has done it several times. It was also done in the last 25 years by Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Cecil Fielder, Juan Gonzalez, Albert Belle, Troy Glaus, Miguel Cabrera, Jose Bautista, and Nelson Cruz.
Read the report, they interviewed all the gambler's and runners who worked for Pete Rose when he was manager of the Reds, and they all say the same thing - the bets they placed in his name, when he contacted him, was for the opponent - NOT the Reds, to win. That's betting against your own team. Rose played MLB for a long, long, magnificent career - he walked into the locker room everyday, and the mandatory posted sign regarding gambling and associating with gamblers is posted on the clubhouse door of every professional baseball team in America, from the Rookie League to low D-League, A-AA-AAA-Major League. You can't miss it, the thing is 5 feet by 4 feet and spells out the penalty for violation clearly. Every player who is contracted with MLB knows it, probably by heart. Since Rose claims he only bet on the Reds to WIN, never to LOSE, all that would have got him was a one-year ban from the game. They had the goods on him, and advised him to fess up, or the rest of the report with the gambling information would be released, so he signed a "life-long ban." What particular part of "life-long" don't you seem to understand. You don't get a lifetime ban from the sport for steroid use; greaseballs; vasoline balls; corked bats or other enhancing substances, just seasonal bans, sometimes a season, sometimes 50 or so games. Bonds hat size increased two full inches during his career, and he was a grown man when he arrived in the majors. Babe Ruth? Got suspended several times during his career, not for gambling, which he probably did along with many players until MLB hired Judge Landis, and he ruled on the season-long and lifetime bans for gambling. Ruth was suspended several times for conduct unbecoming of baseball - shenigans off the field, drinking, gross arguments with umpires, things like that. Before 1920's Black Sox scandal, gamblers were a stable in major league baseball clubhouses, and of course, at the time, it was during Prohibition, so alcohol abuse also was taking place. Alcohol finished up the great Mickey Mantle's career, although his "running mate" Billy Martin remained one to his dying day, in an alcohol related truck accident. The MLB ban on gambling is one of the reason's MLB has never considered giving Las Vegas, Nevada a team, it is a one-industry town, gambling, and the temptation would be too great to trust in player integrity not to associate with gamblers. Pete Rose's statistics clearly justify his induction into the Hall Of Fame - but as I have pointed out several times in the thread, that institution is NOT ASSOCIATED with Major League Baseball. MLB has their rules, the Hall Of Fame has theirs, created upon it founding, and they won't change theirs, which require consideration for induction means you happen to be a member in good standing with Major League Baseball (as a player; manager; broadcaster; overlooked veteran; writer), to be included on the ballot. Major League Baseball is keeping Pete Rose from being eligible for the HOF, rightfully so, his actions betting on the Reds routinely to LOSE games goes to the very heart of the integrity of the game, and is why Judge Landis banned the eight Chicago White Sox players, two with Hall of Fame statistics, for life, and no baseball representative has ever considered or proposed removing that 95-year ban. They certainly are not going to do it for a Pete Rose either, and just recently said so again publicly - he isn't eligible to be in Cooperstown, N.Y. celebrated for anything, he is not affiliated, by his own actions, with Major League Baseball, in any way. Besides, the obvious, that Rose is, and has been for decades as a player and manager, been addicted to gambling, is so obvious, why would he ever bet on the Reds to WIN. Gambler's look for ways to gain an edge. Card counting in Las Vegas and other casino's, will get you an unrecorded on any police blotter beating in the back alley, and thrown forever out of the city, with your photo on display in every casino there. That was the choice Rose made, gambler, hustler or ballplayer, he chose the former with full knowledge of the consequences - no HOF when he got caught, and he signed the lifetime ban. Case is closed, and will remain so, at least for the next 95 years...........
Were they all playing for the Red Sox at the time - I forgot to include that fact in my post?..........
