Question: Does life start at birth or conception?

OK ... I think we have beat the Grammar/Spelling Nazi to death.

Lets move on.

 

To be technically accurate, the cell does not turn into a human. In fact the zygote will never be part of the structure of the potential human.

Sometime after the creation of the first 200 totipotent cells (none of which will be part of the human structure), these cells will begin creating differentiated cells (heart, liver, brain and so on).

These differentiated cells are the embryoblast and represent the first cells in the structure of the human being created.

I suppose you could say that this could represent where life starts because part of the human actually exists at this point.

Agreed. Abortion terminates a process which has the potential to create a human.

 

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. In the right measure of course.

 

I'll try to make this simple for you without any rambling handcuff stories .
I think an abortion ,up to 26 weeks is just fine no matter if the pregnancy was caused by rape or consensual sex .
After that, if the fetus is viable and healthy, then no I don't believe abortion is right or should be performed by anyone unless the woman's life or health is in danger.

And I'm not wrong.

 

I wasn't really trying to compare plants to humans as far as rights were concerned, just showing that plants can be protected, and I feel the reason plants cannot be inhumanely treated is because they don't have the ability to feel pain .. hence my comparison to a fetus of less than 25 weeks which also cannot feel pain.

lol

I think that one highlighted word sums up the difference between your scenario and an unconsented pregnancy it is the matter of intent.

The problem with that as you already noted is finding the evidence to dispute any argument the assailant has, the victim would after all be dead, if the assailant has numerous injuries then it would be very, very difficult to prove, firstly that he was the one that instigated the handcuffing and secondly that he was not protecting himself against attack.

Agreed, but again there is intent in the initial handcuffing .. the act is a premeditated one.

In this scenario you are the one who has the intent, your intent was to either injury or kill the other person so they are the one with the justification for self defense, not you.

Agreed .. but ... intent also must play a part, a woman who has sexual intercourse who has no intent on getting pregnant cannot be seen as the instigator of the pregnancy.

Agreed, though I think that I see where this is heading .. perhaps you are angling towards saying that giving birth and adoption are a viable alternative to abortion, this could be correct if the time period were not so extended. In your handcuffing example what is the probability of it lasting 40 weeks?

Agreed, that is why the issue of consent is so important . .a woman who continues her pregnancy through to birth is consenting to the injuries incurred, as any person can consent to injuries (S & M for example), that changes the second the person revokes that consent, any further attempt to inflict injuries is illegal and will result in a prosecution of the assailant regardless of the initial consent given.

 

I have no problem with using mental life when in debate/conversation with you . .however I know that some pro-lifers will start screaming about 'making things up' and as such will continue to use 'consciousness' or 'sentience' with them.

 

I hold MULTIPLE DEGREES and I ABSOLUTELY SUCK AT SPELLING!!! LOL!!!

I think it has something to do with the fact the English Language has too many exceptions such as I before E except after C....sometimes.

It's funny...I have this crazy memory and I retain immense amounts of sensory data but for some reason I can't spell...I can't remember where I left my sunglasses and I have to keep repurchasing very expensive pairs of Oakley and RayBan sunglasses because I keep losing them and sometimes I will walk into a room and not remember WHY.

BUT....I am well versed in Particle Physics, Quantum Mechanics, Multiversal Theory and numerous other things...but I can't seem to get a grip on Lose and Loose....or Latter and Ladder! LOL!!!

AboveAlpha

 

Also every time I post THIS.....

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You know...just to demonstrate how silly this topic is as well as how silly this argument is here are a few FACTS.

LIFE....exists BEFORE an Human Egg Cell is even Fertilized by a Sperm Cell.

Both the Egg and Sperm Cells are INDEPENDENT LIFE FORMS and although these cells are Human in origin they cannot be classified as a HUMAN BEING either independently or together as a Fertilized Egg.

As I have posted before a Living Human Being is classified as a Multi-Cellular Multi-Species Biomechanical Construct and that along with Billions of various completely independently classified groups of Human Cells which serve specific purposes both individually and as a group to enable the entire Biomechanical Construct to live and have abilities but as well a MULTITUDE OF DIFFERENT NON-HUMAN SPECIES exist and MUST EXIST as part of a Human Being in order for a Human Being to live, develop and survive.

As example....with a variety of Bacterial Species which exist in a SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP within and as a part of a Human Beings Biomechanical Construct in the Intestinal System and many other systems and such species of Bacteria MUST exist in a Fetus even to allow Fetal Development as without these other Life Forms Humans could NOT REPRODUCE as a Fetus would die early on in the pregnancy without them.

So the FACT is that a LIVING HUMAN BEING exists as MORE THAN ONE SPECIES....as if only Human Cells were present a Human Being could neither live nor could it even EXIST.

THIS IS A FACT THAT DICTATES THE FOLLOWING.

Since a Fertilized Human Egg Cell on it's own and without the introduction of a large number of various Species of Life Forms with completely different Genomes than that of Human Cells CAN NEVER DEVELOP INTO A HUMAN BEING..... a Fertilized Human Egg Cell CAN NOT BE CLASSIFIED AS A HUMAN BEING.

This is a simple truth that most people simply either don't know or don't understand.

I NEVER GET ANYONE FROM THE PRO-LIFE SIDE OF THE ISSUE TO DISCUSS THIS SIMPLE FACT...EVER!!!

So...I am reposting it again to see if anyone is BRAVE ENOUGH to at the very least say something about it.

Again and Again and Again....the Anti-Abortion crew brings us their supposed point that a Fertilized Egg is actually a HUMAN BEING.

BUT....these same people REFUSE to comment on the FACT that thousands upon thousands of Fertilized Eggs are destroyed in FERTILITY CLINICS ALL OVER THE WORLD as many are created but only a few are used and the rest are discarded.

What is REALLY FUNNY about this is Pro-Life'ERS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO ISSUE WITH A COUPLE GOING TO A FERTILITY CLINIC IN ORDER FOR A COUPLE TO GET PREGNANT.

BUT...at the same time Pro-Life Groups keep complaining that a Fertilized Human Egg Cell is as far as they are concerned a HUMAN BEING.

It is NOT...and in fact by itself it cannot be even a POTENTIAL HUMAN BEING.

A Fertilized Egg Cell cannot develop without the help of a number of different species of Life Forms such as Bacteria as without this NON-HUMAN LIFE....a Fertilized Egg Cell will DIE....AND IT CANNOT BECOME A HUMAN BEING on it's own thus it cannot be stated to be a Human Being.

Anyone this time want to comment....or are my statements just too Logically Air Tight?

AboveAlpha

 

Oh goody! Now I 'm a scientist!!!

 

HEY!!!

How about commenting on my above post???

AboveAlpha

 

I love your post(all your posts)...and poor little non-scientist me understood clearly your very well put ideas!

 

Thanks FOX...that was a very kind thing to say.

AboveAlpha

 

actually I didn't say brain waves or pain perception can't occur before at least 20-25 weeks from conception, the lower limit, which would be pain perception, is 24 weeks with consistent brain wave activity at 25 weeks, so the actual lower limit is 24 weeks.

The legal limit for elective abortions in the USA is 24 weeks (they are allowed after this point for life threats to the female and/or fetal disabilities incompatibility with life), so IMO Roe actually got it about right, though since then the viability position has been changed to no state enforcing an undue burden on a woman's right to abortion, though in my opinion many of the TRAP laws do place an undue burden onto them.

I thought my reply did answer all of your points .. what did I miss?

89% of abortions in the USA are performed before 12 weeks (1/3 occur at six weeks) - http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Your comment above opens up another issue to do with abortion .. the cost ..

Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children).[3]

Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100–199% of the federal poverty level. - http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Most abortions are performed on women who are at the lowest end of the financial spectrum .. In 2009 the average amount paid for a nonhospital abortion with local anesthesia at 10 weeks’ gestation was $451, now that may not seem a lot to some, but to those living on or below the poverty line $451 is a lot of money, it takes time for them to save, beg or borrow the money to pay for the abortion .. If government or state funding were available for abortion then the number of abortions occurring after 12 weeks would decline to the point that only those required for life threats or fetal disability incompatible with life would be performed, however that was scuppered by the conservative lead Hyde Amendment - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Amendment

This is where the Roe decision comes in, it recognizes that the state interests grow stronger the longer the pregnancy continues, and to be honest there are few, if any, women who would elect to abort after 20 weeks.

You have to understand that my arguments are against the pro-lifers who want 'person at conception' to be legally enforced, not against those who pretty much accept the Roe findings as a good compromise.

This is one of the problems with the 'person at conception' ideology, if it is a person then it has all the rights associated with that, not just the ones that support the pro-life position, but those that don't as well .. otherwise you are treating the fetus in a way no other person is treated.

no the fetus was not placed there by the actions of others, the female did not implant the fertilized ovum into her uterine wall, that action is done purely to serve the interests of the fertilized ovum .. this explains it better than I can - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...y Negligence play a part in pregnancy&f=false

your newer comparison relies on intent, the intent of the first person who handcuffed the second person to the bed, there is no such intent in a sexual union that is not done in order to produce a pregnancy, but to stay with your comparison, there is no reason for injury or death to be used against person number two because there are other options available that achieve the same result ie the removal of person two from the situation. With no wish to seem to be belittling your comparison is does strike me as fast becoming a logical absurdity (an appeal to extremes) - http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

I do not use self-defence or body autonomy arguments based on current law, but on natural law.. it has been a human trait to defend ourselves and to decide who, what, where and when our body are used probably since humans have existed. Current law, IMO, only places legislation on something that we as humans have always done.

 

You know....the argument about pain really is not a viable one.

Pain is just a mental creation in some life forms to determine damage is occurring to the life form.

Pain is the name we give this metal warning that our body is being harmed and what we call PAIN exists in other forms for various life forms as a PLANT will feel a form of pain....so will an insect...as you chop off the leg of a ant and it keeps on moving.

But as far as SENTIENCE is concerned a Fetus obtains the BEGINNINGS of SENTIENCE a few weeks into the 3rd Trimester and now we can use a Fetal Brain Scan to determine the very moment this occurs as the Higher Brain Functions of a Fetus will just LIGHT UP like turning on a Christmas Tree upon the scan.

Prior to this the beginnings of Sentience do NOT EXIST and even at this point when we can actually see Higher Brain Functions begin with such a scan....it is the BEGINNING of SENTIENCE....the Fetus has NOT obtained FULL SENTIENCE.

In fact a BABY does not obtain full sentience or full consciousness for WEEKS after Birth.

But as far as PAIN....prior to Higher Brain Function occurring a Fetus is not even SENTIENT enough to THINK about pain even if such pain signals exist.

An analogy is like this....we cut down a TREE. Now the Tree is aware that damage is occurring although it cannot react anywhere as near as fast as say....taking a red hot metal rod and touching it to the skin on the fingers of a BRAIN DEAD PERSON.

The person who is Brain Dead is no longer Sentient and in fact has no consciousness YET when the red hot metal rod touches this body the brain dead person MOVES THEIR HAND AND ARM....it is a REFLEX RESPONSE.

The same for a FETUS undergoing an ABORTION prior to the beginnings of Sentience.

Now I certainly don't advocate Abortion and I believe abortion should be avoided whenever possible and if an abortion needs to be done it should be done VERY EARLY ON and 99% OF ALL ABORTIONS are done before 21 weeks BUT IF DRUGS LIKE MORNING AFTER AND PLAN B were made easily available to ALL FEMALES REGARDLESS OF AGE AND COVERED UNDER NATIONAL HEALTHCARE....the number of abortions in total would be reduced by over 99%.

AboveAlpha

 

What the HELL are you talking about?

AboveAlpha

 

I DID!!!

I still don't see what it has to do with me.

AboveAlpha

 

My Post was using FACTS AND LOGIC to specifically state exactly WHAT a Human Being consists of.

As for LIFE....the Egg and Sperm are already alive prior to Fertilization as completely independent life forms.

But as for what constitutes a Human Being...a Fertilized Egg....does NOT constitute a Human Being.

AboveAlpha

 

Mental Life?

As in CRAZY or as in Sentient?

AboveAlpha