Quran Vs Bible

The Old Testament is talking about the Jewish patriarchs and how they acted back then.
It also tells us how the other people behaved, too, the Gentiles.

The Koran is based upon the Old Testament, and has repeated what it says about dietary laws, slavery, and just about everything else.
The Koran is about Patriarchs, too.

This is not what the New Testament says though.
Nevertheless, the New Testament notes that slaves have ALWAYS existed.
It lists rules which add to those the Old Testament had listed.

Your idea that Slavery is something evil is different from the Reality, that slavery is the lowest form of "employment."

The whole Middle Ages saw everyone working as Serfs in Europe, and owned by the landlords, much as is the case in India today.
That you hate slavery and are certain it is ALL bad and evil is just not true.

Slavery is just one of the economic means of distribution of goods and service which can be utilized under certain conditions.
If the Bible has said Slavery is evil and never do it, the masses of the Middle Ages would have starved to death.

When the Plague came, and slaves were reduced by such numbers that farmers could not raise their crops because of a lack of laborers, Serfs suddenly became a great asset, and their rewards multiplied as did the benefits such as complete liberty, too.

 

I would remind everyone here, that in spite of the Jew's denial of Jesus as messiah, they actually act just like Christians today, regardless of the dietary laws and the rituals they must ignore, like sacrifices.'But they do charity, and accept others without violence and attacks on women, and they basically behave just as the Christians do, socially speaking.'
They have stopped acting like patriarchs, indeed.

In regard to slavery, in America, the Jews died during the civil rights movement and were amng the first to go South and fight the injustice of those days, too.

 

Then altruism would have been morally preferable to slavery.

 

I believe that was after God allowed the Jews to be exiled from Israel and commanded them to be good citizens of the nations they found themselves in.

 

I'll continue the discussion if we stick to the Quran vs the Bible. Both books defend the institution of slavery. We both agree about that when it comes to the Quran, so we just disagree about the Bible.

I thought we were talking about the Bible, not just Jesus? You seem to care about that during your own argument, so why do you ignore it when it is inconvenient for you?

You completely forgot the context of the quote you were responding to. I said that you are assuming sola scriptura when you said "'Christianity' is the doctrine of the bible." This statement is that assumes sola scriptura.

That's just because you ignore the verses that form a basis for slavery, or you re-imagine them as only "recognizing the existence of slavery." In contrast, the Bible actually says that God invented the institution of slavery (I've pointed this out several times now and you keep ignoring it), that God commanded the Israelites to take slaves, that God's laws provided for the institution of slavery and that (even in the NT) slaves are to obey their masters. That's an imperative, not a mere recognition of the institution.

I'd like to be generous, but I have no other choice at this point but to call this out as a lie.

According to the Bible, God invented slavery long before Rome ever existed.

Again, a blatant lie.

A handful. More if you make a stretch and start applying the Golden Rule stuff, even though both testaments have the Golden Rule and slavery.

 

Ephesians 2
15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Romans 10
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.(*)

Romans 7
6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

2 Corinthians 3
13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

Galatians 3 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law

 

The lowest form of employment would still be employment. Name one situation in which slavery solved a problem that could not have been solved by voluntary work and voluntary compensation.

Theft is also a means of distribution. That doesn't make it right.

Then you should be able to prove that all civilizations have relied on slavery. Feudal serfdom was only "necessary" because aristocrats commandeered the Commons. Before then, common folk were able to grow and catch their own food.

Where is your proof that these workers would have never worked voluntarily, or that their success would have been impossible if they did not exist as someone else's property?

 

None of us knew Jesus so everything that defines him is found in the bible.

Christianity, the doctrine of the bible. In contrast to "Protestant"ism, "Catholic"ism or views of "Christian thinkers"

That's just because you ignore the verses that form a basis for slavery, or you re-imagine them as only "recognizing the existence of slavery." In contrast, the Bible actually says that God invented the institution of slavery (I've pointed this out several times now and you keep ignoring it), that God commanded the Israelites to take slaves, that God's laws provided for the institution of slavery and that (even in the NT) slaves are to obey their masters. That's an imperative, not a mere recognition of the institution.[/quote]

Your tortured interpretation of the bible says god invented slavery. The bible says

Genesis 9:20-27New International Version (NIV)
20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded[a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s naked body. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father naked.
24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
“Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers.”
26 He also said,
“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Shem!
May Canaan be the slave of Shem.
27 May God extend Japheth’s territory;
may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
and may Canaan be the slave of Japheth.”

Absurd to interpret that as "God invented it", referring to slavery.

 

Then why do you ignore Paul's comments about slavery?

Plenty of Christians look outside the Bible for their doctrine. That's why I commented about it.

I noticed you ignored the rest of what I said.

Absurd? That's exactly what happened in the story. Slavery is never mentioned in the Bible before this point. Even if slavery did exist before this point, it was wiped out in the flood. So God either invents slavery or reintroduces it. In the absolute most minimal interpretation, God is still commanding slavery. This isn't simply an acknowledgement that slavery exists (because it didn't yet in this story). This is God's express approval of slavery. There's no getting around it.

 

I really love those leaps from logic to faith. Such a leap, leads the readers to believe that you have found the key to proving that God does in fact exist. If God did not exist, then it could not be declared authoritatively and through logic that "God is still commanding slavery." Thank you yardmeat.

 

I'll ask you once to stop lying. You have already asked me once what I mean when I talk about the actions of God, I have given you an answer, and you pretended at the time to understand and as if you would continue accordingly. Do I have to dig it up again? No, I do not believe in God. That does not prevent me from speaking of God as a character in the book in which he appears. Have you already forgotten about that?

God--as a character in the Bible, according to the Bible--invented slavery.

 

Where is the evidence that the Qur'an defends slavery?

 

But that is not what you stated in your former post that we are talking about. You were very succinct in your response when you stated: " In the absolute most minimal interpretation, God is still commanding slavery.", which statement moves away from a minimal interpretation of the 'Bible' and moves forward to the present time.

 

The Koran says that God smiles when a slave is freed.

 

Wrong interpretation there, bub. Read it in context:

"So God either invents slavery or reintroduces it. In the absolute most minimal interpretation, God is still commanding slavery."

Using present tense is common when discussing literature. All of my English papers used the present tense. And "still" here not indicative of a present progressive tense, which should have been obvious from the context.

I'll make it easier for you. "So God (as a character in the Bible, according to the Bible) either invents slavery or, in the absolute most minimal interpretation, God is still commanding slavery in these verses."

 

I fully admit that that presumption could be false. It was something that I took for granted based on conversations with former Muslims, but I'd be more than happy to have that assumption corrected.

 

The Qur'an is neutral on the subject, but it does encourage Muslims to free slaves. The reason why God doesn't outright reject and ban slavery is because slavery was the backbone of the economy in past societies, the same way the present mode of transportation is the backbone of the economy in contemporary societies, despite all the pollution it causes.

 

033.050 O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts...

023.005 And who guard their private parts,
023.006 Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable,

004.023 Forbidden to you are your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your paternal aunts and your maternal aunts and brothers' daughters and sisters' daughters and your mothers that have suckled you and your foster-sisters and mothers of your wives and your step-daughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you (in marrying them), and the wives of your sons who are of your own loins and that you should have two sisters together, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

004.024 And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

016.075 Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from Ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? (All) praise is due to Allah! Nay, most of them do not know.

The Hadith contains more examples

Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 80, Number 753:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet said, "The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him,"

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 255:
Narrated Abu Burda's father:
The Prophet said, "Three persons will get their reward twice. (One is) a person who has a slave girl and he educates her properly and teaches her good manners properly (without violence) and then manumits and marries her. Such a person will get a double reward. (Another is) a believer from the people of the scriptures who has been a true believer and then he believes in the Prophet (Muhammad). Such a person will get a double reward. (The third is) a slave who observes Allah's Rights and Obligations and is sincere to his master."

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."


Volume 3, Book 41, Number 598:
Narrated Jabir: A man manumitted a slave and he had no other property than that, so the Prophet cancelled the manumission (and sold the slave for him). No'aim bin Al-Nahham bought the slave from him.

Volume 3, Book 47, Number 765:
Narrated Kurib:
the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles."

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 351:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:
A man decided that a slave of his would be manumitted after his death and later on he was in need of money, so the Prophet took the slave and said, "Who will buy this slave from me?" Nu'aim bin 'Abdullah bought him for such and such price and the Prophet gave him the slave.

Book 015, Number 4112:
'Imran b. Husain reported that a person who had no other property emancipated six slaves of his at the time of his death. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called for them and divided them into three sections, cast lots amongst them, and set two free and kept four in slavery; and he (the Holy Prophet) spoke severely of him.

 

Refer to post #793.

 

Oh, yeah...
They still protect the Rabbi who had Jesus crucified and they do not even notice that they act differently then during the first 300 years or so.
But they are as close to Christian behavior as can be, even focused on charity to the breaking point.
When I visit hospital after hospital in America I am amazed at the benefactor who were Jewish people, when the population is almost zero, here in this country.

The patriarch Jews were acting like the Muslims do in ISIS.

 

Slavery is still one of man's economic systems of distribution of goods and services.

It is a sad state of his affairs that some Africa child needs to help a fisherman catch fish in order that his parents can get money they must have in order to survive.
Ophra had a show about the conditions and had much to say about this situation.
But the economic were a Reality, and the Truth was the deal benefited both side,... except maybe the kid who had to fish for nothing but room and board.

On the other hand, unless he could get a little canoe of his own, he had hardly anything else to do anyway.

 

"God" is Reality.
Realities either invent slavery as a way out under certain circumstance or re-invents the idea when necessity makes it practical.

Wars create slaves, too.
Indians took prisoners as slave property.
The alternative was to kill the child or person.

Slavery did not sound that bad then.
But thieves also force people into slavery and hold them captive against their will, when not mutual deal had been arranged.
This is theft, and against the law of course.

 

Employment mean one works for another and receives something, like at least room and board.

That is what defines slavery here.
The slave gets room and board in return.

 

Oh, you think the Reality has been that property rights ought not exist?
You believe that what's mine is also yours.

You think that people can and should live as if they had nothing, and worked merely for the general group, who then divided the wares amongst all people.
This communism.
It works when no one has anything, and there is little to be shared.
It works fine in the military, before the mercenaries took over our Army and no one got much more than a few cigarettes.

Communism starts failing as soon as people get stuff and notice they are the only people actually working.
Your complaint here is that you dislike the "distribution," and call it slavery if it is not high as you might like.

Basically, you have the mind of Marx, who just counted the differences in pay checks, and wanted more,

 

- Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.

Siddharta the Buddha - 400 years before Christ. 1000 years before the Quran.

Muslims. Christians. The both have very violent past histories. We can list the wars by Christian on Christian in Europe and we can list the wars of Muslim on Muslim in the Mid-East, but it's really been pretty constant for the last 2000 years.

The most peaceful religion - none are great, but Buddhists would have the shortest list of the major religions. So it's kind of a moot point to try and determine which book is more "peaceful". Simply depends on the present interpretation.