Really, What's the Differnce Between Taxes and Theft?

Let us say you are a traveling merchant in the year 1140 A.D. You conduct your business in England during the reign of King Stephen. And it is a time of civil war, for Emperess Maud claims that her son Henry is the rightful king. The king is busy with his war and the local barons are pretty much left to their own devices, and bandits roam the countryside, preying on the weak.

And let us say you are based in Canterbury and wish to move goods to York along the road. It is a dangerous journey, so you hire armed guards.

But let us say that a gang of bandits way-lays your caravan and takes your goods. This is called stealing, and is widely acknowledged to be immoral and illegal.

But let us say that in the next year, you try again to send a caravan on the same route. In that year, the leader of the bandits has built a castle with the money he stole from you, and declared himself the baron of that region.

And again he waylays your caravan and takes your goods, only this time he calls it a toll for using the road, which he claims as his. Now this is called a tax, which is widely considered legitimate.

But consider this, the same man was a bandit last year and this year he calls himself a baron. But does it make any difference to you what word he uses to describe himself as he deprives you of your goods?

What really is the distinction between a tax and outright theft?

 

Taxes are theft when they go too far to the level of abuse. When that is differs from person to person...

But for all the Republicans who happen to be Christians that hate taxes... Jesus basically said "pay your taxes" so stop complaining. Our taxes aren't THAT high. They're actually lower than ever.

 

What benefits of taxes do you deny yourself? Do you not use the streets provided by taxes. Do you not allow the police to protect you. Do you not allow the fire department to put out a fire in your home. What services that taxes provide don't you use or are you just shooting your mouth off while you reap the benefits?

 

Taxes are not theft when they provide legitimate services from the Government that benefits the taxpayers. When Taxes are taken just to redistribute to voting blocks as a pay-off for their continued support or to benefit the Government rather than the taxpayer, then it is difficult to distinguish such from theft.

 

Personally I've always thought of taxation as theft, because the government doesn't really offer you any alternatives.

In capitalist terms, though, taxation is just fine. It's a voluntary exchange -- you can pay your taxes, or you can leave the country. It's somewhat more voluntary than other exchanges that capitalists consider voluntary.

 

Wow, what amazing patriots we have here!! Take everything, give nothing back!!

 

So you would be okay with it if he were just a capitalist who claimed the road as his (perhaps he paid someone else for it -- that makes it okay, right?), and rather than calling it a tax, he called it a toll?

 

I'm always amazed at how the liberal Left, who are completely ignorant of the Bible, seem to always know what it "basically" says.

People seize upon "render to Caeser" but leave out "render to God." Far from justifying Roman taxes, Jesus was defining the transcendence of the heavenly kingdom from earthly affairs. If people today can't understand what Jesus was saying, then at least the people of his day could. Those asking the question were hoping to trap Jesus into taking an unpopular political stand or be branded as an insurrectionist. The answer Jesus gave in no way gave them the ammunition they hoped to use against him. Put another way, it can't be said that he either supported Roman taxes or told people to resist taxation.

If you knew Jesus, you would understand this.

 

Lol, so you knew Jesus?

 

Yes, I know Jesus. You can too.

 

I disagree with your statement. I know the Bible. This is probably why there's so many different translations. Nobody agrees.

Jesus would have been a liberal. There's no doubt about it. He even suggested people should give up their stuff. He was down right commie.

 

Are you a self-proclaimed prophet? Lol

 

Disagree all you want. His enemies could not profit from the answer Jesus gave, so I'm right and you're wrong. That's the end of the story. Jesus was remarkable in escaping every attempt to label him according to earthly political paradigms.

If you knew Him, you would understand this.

 

I'm not a prophet. I'm just forgiven and redeemed. The gift of salvation can be yours too.

 

I do not benefit from:

1) The bailouts of the banks

2) The bailouts of GM and Chrysler

3) The stimulus

4) Section 8 housing

5) AFDC

6) Food stamps

7) Medicaid

8 ) Farm subsidies

9) Tax breaks for oil companies to invest in solar and wind power

10) PBS

11) NPR

12) Planned Parenthood

13) ACORN

14) Amtrak

15) subsidized airline travel to rural airports

16) nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan

17) United Nations

This is a partial list of things the government does with my money that I do not benefit from.

 

You didn't benefit from education either as that is not what I asked. What services that the government provides do you refuse. Roads, police fire department etc. If you hate taxes so much and think of them as theft you must refuse all of the services they provide or you're a hypocritical windbag. So which services do you refuse to use?

 

Well you implicitly give your consent by living in the society. You can leave if you like (since America is not the type of country that will prevent it) and become an illegal under the radar in some other country. Or go to a country that has no government. Also, you would need to stop using anything that tax money is used for, such as police, fire, schools, roads, bridges, national defense, etc. Though I don't know if you are advocating anarchism...or just really low taxes. And if you do agree we need taxes for some items, then the debate is opened to what those items might be.

 

Actually, with the exception of points 16 & 17, you do benefit from all of those. #4, Section 8 Housing, for example; here in St. Louis we have several local, privately owned, small businesses who buy forclosed houses. They then bring the homes up to government standards (which is typically higher then local code requires) with goods purchased at other local businesses. They then rent them out as Section 8 on a three year commitment to cover the cost of purchase and repair. Every tax dollar spent on Section 8 Housing is recycled directly into the economy.

 

Section 8 housing is robbing Peter to pay Paul, and I'm Peter.

 

LOL what a ridiculous statement.

 

You actually bennefit from all of these things. You are just not capable of thinking broadley enough to see how they bennefit you.

I'm not sure what kind of job you have but let's pretend you are a small business owner making carbon composite parts for different industrys. I'm trying to pick an occupation that seems as far removed from any of these as possible. Let's say you live in Muncie Indiana in the middle of America.

Bank bailouts our a bit contreversial but the theory is that they saved jobs by freeing up capital. The GM bailouts saved thousands of jobs as well. The Stimulus pumped money into the economy creating more jobs. So all though none of this money went to you here is how it helps your small composite company. The car salesman in california was able to keep his job because GM didn't go out of business. This car salesman buys food from a local grocery store, increasing their profits. The grocery store needs to ship in more food on a truck from central california. The trucking company needs to add another truck to their fleet. They order a truck from a midwestern trucking company. This midwestern truck making company recives carbon fiber dash panels, from your company. See how it all works together.

The next several items on your list all have to do with helping poor people. I understand you want to ignore them, but if we ignore them crime rates will go up. Our streets will be filthy. Gang membership will increase. Additionally, these same programs operate much the same way in the above example. Stimulating the economy. A Moody Economist recently did a study that found a $1.00 investment in food stamps, is multiplied into $1.84. These effects help our society and ultimately make everyone more wealthy. So with less crime, and more wealth, it seems liek a win-win proposition to me.

Amtrak and local commuter rails, along with bus services, reduce traffic, make transportation of goods cheaper by reducing the amount of time goods sit in traffic, and they reduce polution. All positvies. These programs cost very little compared to the bennefit that they provide. Most of these programs are virtually self funding anywyas.

PBS and NPR both provide educational and what should be unbiassed news free for all to hear. The both provide valuable services to society, and help when you have networks like Fox News and MSNBC, it is benneficial to be able to go somewhere that doesnt filter thair information to fill some agenda. That is the purpose of these channels. I'm not sure if you believe educatino should be privatized too, but I will leave that for another discussion.

Subsidizing rural airports was covered in another thread, so if you still dont' understand the concepts behind that, maybee you should read the trhead again.

Nationbuilding in Iraq and Afghanistan is not something that you wanted to do, but because of decisions made years ago we are stuck with that process. We cant' live a country in ruins after we destroy it. That would invite terrorist to come in and allow them to have complete control of an entire nation. You don't want to support terroist, do you?

United Nations has helped keep oil prices much lower than they would be without them, by helping to negotiate peace treatys. It also sets a moral standard for the world and gives a unifying place for the world to meet. Having the UN in the United States also helps give more power to the United States, do you support weakening the U.S. Baragaining position? Do you want higher oil prices? How about nuclear fallout coming around the world from nations testing nuclear weapons on land? Certainly you can see the bennefits of this unifying body.

Whether you choose to admit it or not, you do bennefit from every one of these programs in some way. Maybee you feel you pay more than you should for some of these services, but to say you don't bennefit is simply not true.

 

I can see where you might think that, Peter, but what you're forgetting is that Paul is taking the $800 dollar a month check he receives for the Section 8 rental he owns and using it to buy food at your grocery store, and an oil change at your auto shop, and stamps at your post office, as well as paying his employees, all of whom are also buying groceries, oil changes, and stamps.

 

Extortion and taxation are two different things. If there is no legitimate government giving him his power, he is just a thug.

We have a legitimate government that has the power to tax. Where our government crosses the line is in taxing for unconstitutional programs and expenditures, of which there is a long list of them.

 

Invading Iraq was not constitutional, and I have to pay for THAT!

I would much rather pay for Section 8 housing. The 92 yo old lady who worker hard all her life who lives in my building gets to stay in her small clean and neat apartment because of Section 8.

A much better use of money.

 

The question of the legitimacy of taxes has to be set aside (temporarily) in order to determine the following:
1) What is the proper purpose of government?
2) Given it's purpose, what are the proper functions or services of such a government?
3) How much of such services are required?
4) How much will such services cost?
5) What is the proper method of financing proper govt services?

The establishment of a PROPER government comes before the implementation of the right financing mechanism.