Ron DeSantis on what being conservative means: 'Our rights come from God, not government'

Someboby needs to tell Ronda that our rights come from our society, no mythical sky being needed.

 

i have read the old testement only once, the new three times, but the last few years much time involved in researching religions and christianity, its easy to find corruption from christianities roots into our modern organized religions

 

the christian church had a protestent movement splitting the church into groups which believed we all had the right to intemperate
religious texts without the need of a church leader/protestant/catholic split...its my opinion that many "Christians" go along with their pastors opinion, which is ironic

 

Of course they do. Organized religion isn't for independent thinkers.

 

And if we don't believe in a "creator?" The founders did cover that in the 1st Amendment, right?

You believe whatever you like, but don't assume that it applies to all Americans.

 

Hence the 1st Amendment, which gives me every right to refute your claim that my rights and liberties come from your dear fluffy lord.

I don't care what you believe, just as long as you refrain from the arrogance that assumes that your god is in charge of my life.

 

Cleopatra took her toll.

 

Luke 22:35-36.


35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.


But the point is, self defense is the basic right here.

 

Inalienable rights are just that. They can be infringed or violated, but not removed. If I kill someone I have not removed their right to life, I have violated that right. It’s a very simple concept.

I see people say everyone has a right to healthcare even though the government here has not provided that. I see people say women have the right to abortion even in states that have moved to restrict access through law. I see people say everyone has the right to a living wage even though no codified law or other government dictate provides for one.

I’m left just shaking my head when those same folks can’t “understand” the concept of inalienable rights.

 

I imagine they're the same folks who don't understand the concept of inherent natural rights, as well.

 

Modern western governance split government from religion long before there was an America.

And, our founders were well aware of that, being exceptionally well read students of history and government.

What we have, with religion divided from government, was fully on purpose and for sound and proven reason.

 

Yes.

 

This is a profoundly disgusting use of the Bible.

In fact, Jesus healed the ear of the only case of using a sword in this telling of the last hours of the life of Jesus on Earth.

In fact, Jesus rebuked the act of attempted use of the sword.

The life and statements of Jesus can not be used to suggest that Jesus would glory in the gun slaughter in America today.

 

Disgusting use? I just pointed out your memory must have failed you.

I would never suggest Jesus would approve of or advocate for using firearms to slaughter anyone. Why would you think my pointing out Jesus did in fact do what you said you couldn’t remember him doing was the equivalent of saying Jesus approved of slaughter?

The Bible (nor Jesus specifically) speak against self defense or carrying of weapons. In fact there are many instances of self defense in the Bible. However, just as today, self defense and murder (slaughter as you call it) in the Bible are two very different things.

The passage in Luke involves fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy so is much deeper than just self defense. I certainly agree Jesus would disapprove of slaughter/murder.

 

My memory of last reading Luke a few years back? OMG!

Jesus advocated not using violence as a defense against those who were coming to execute him.

Beyond that, using the social circumstances of thousands of years ago as described in one religious document is just plain IDIOTIC.

 

Well, the fact remains, Jesus did in fact suggest his followers carry lethal weapons. And you said you didn’t remember him doing so. It’s pretty black and white.

Just before going to the Garden of Gethsemane where Peter cut off the famed ear, the disciples told Jesus they had two swords. Jesus said “two is enough”. Why didn’t he say “don’t carry swords” or something?

The Bible and Jesus were pretty clear violence to combat religious persecution is not called for. The crucifixion was also fulfillment of prophecy so it wouldn’t make much sense for Jesus and the disciples to fight off the soldiers coming to arrest.

Nobody is suggesting old religious documents should set policy on firearms today. Certainly not me. I much prefer basing such matters on philosophical ideas coming out of the enlightenment.

 

Yet you used Luke and his remembrance of the words of Jesus in this story that is so important for many very different reasons - as it if is the treatise of Jesus on US carry law.

 

Incorrect. I simply provided a verse you didn’t remember. Don’t be butt hurt because the Bible says something you didn’t remember.

Please point out the part of this post where I claim anything about carry law or that Luke or Jesus have any bearing on such law.

 

Who is “they”?

 

@WillReadmore another insight from Jesus.

When they came to arrest Jesus, Peter pulled his sword and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers. I assure you that it wasn't just his ear he was aiming for. The point is that the disciples carried the sidearms of their day with them on their daily travels, and Jesus was obviously fully aware of that.

Humans have a God given right to effective self-defense, and they also have the right to turn the other cheek. And depending on the situation, either response may be the correct one, may we each respond wisely.

Yes, America Really Is A Good Country

'Ours is a country whose citizens still believe, overwhelmingly, in the ideals of the Declaration of Independence...'

'As we celebrate this Independence Day, we desperately need to remember our own shared beliefs and ideals in hopes they will bind together our divided nation. Our shared ideals and common identity as Americans should bind us.'

'Our shared aspirations and common identity are our country’s best hope for the future. And our history should be a source of hope, as well as somber reflection.'

'“our country as it strives to become better, to celebrate its accomplishments, to overcome its historical wrongs, to heal its lasting wounds and, ultimately, to achieve the ideals set before us in the Declaration of Independence and made concrete in our Constitution.” Whether our ancestors came over on the Mayflower, a slave ship, or a boat from Europe, escaping the Nazis, those are our shared ideals, but only if we embrace them.'

'They are the promise that all men and women should be treated equally, allowed to speak freely and assemble peaceably, worship as they choose, permit others to worship, speak, and assemble as they choose, vote for whichever candidates they prefer, and live in safety, governed by laws made by the representatives they choose in fair elections. Those goals are grounded in tolerance and mutual forbearance, which are essential for a cohesive society where people come from different backgrounds and hold different beliefs.'

 

Jesus's message was to NOT cut off that ear.

His message was to turn the other cheek.

His message was to help those in need, be they criminals, poor or in hospital.

I don't believe you have examined what Jesus taught.

After the mistaken views on Jesus and what he taught his followers, you gave a lot of nice quotes. Kudos on that!

 

Straw dog alert. I never said that it was. The story shows that the disciples carried the side arms of their day, and in this case, Peter, the future Pope, used it.

As I said, and as @557 told you, it was also to buy a sword, because you might need it.

And yet @557 and I both pointed out that the situation is more complex than you seem to realize.

 

Yes, Paul used it and that was a mistake.

Jesus didn't suggest a sword was needed. What he stated was that there ARE requirements, but they have to do with turning the other cheek and helping those who are aliens, who are criminals, who are in poverty. For THOSE, failure means that a Christian will still go to hell.

Beyond that, using the ancient world as a model for today is just flat out BULL. And, that's true whether one is talking about society or health or science or economics, or anything else.

 

Peter. Paul didn't convert until later. And in this instance, it was a mistake to use it, but, nothing suggests it was mistake to carry it. In fact, Jesus instructed his disciples in the teaching that @557 pointed out to you, to obtain and carry the sidearms of the day, because the dangers they would like face.

I understand that this flies in the face of the traditions of some believers, and God bless them, they are free to believe as they see fit, this is simply a case of it came up in conversation and we have brought you some information to show that the issue is more complex that some who have not read the history for themselves, might be aware. I completely support your right to do with this information as you see fitr.

Ouch! A lot to unpack here. Let me take your first points in turn.

First, the Sermon on the Mount, in my opinion, are three of the most amazing chapters ever penned in human history. They don't strike me as 'requirements' but admonitions toward a better way, toward deeper insight, toward a better understanding of God's point of view. Your last point struck me the hardest, though. Works are very important, when they reflect changed heart, but, it's the changed heart that saves us, not the works. Here in Ephesians: 'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.'

There is certainly some truth there. What I find fascinating are the parts where these ancient people are struggling with all their might over questions we struggle with, to this very day. For example, "when should we fight, and when should we turn the cheek."? Or "Why do the wicked prosper while the righteous suffer?" And so on. I appreciate you sharing. I'm not claiming to be right, just offering some food for thought.

 

Oh... must be Martians, not human beings... gees.