So much for herd immunity - 33% of ex-covid patients getting reinfected with Delta

To some, if one isn't indoctrinated into a religion, usually christianity in USA, they are cultural marxists. Because they choose to live and let live all humans regardless of skin color, sex orientation, religion.
But if one isn't the exact same as them, they consider them to be horrible humans, typically. Even though most want to treat all the same regardless of who they are.

 

I wonder if covid will be the last to target the spikes or if too late now, cause they could have targeted the main virus and would have had another yearly flu vaccine

 

Again, targeting the main virus doesn't really help that much (you get a predominance of binding antibodies instead of neutralizing antibodies). The reason why the spike protein is targeted is that it is the most vulnerable part of a coronavirus, and is on its surface, sticking out. They can't survive if the spike protein is not functional. The function of the spike protein is to bind to the ACE-2 receptors on the walls of the human cell. They then use this attachment to earn entry into the cell, where the virus then releases its genetic material and replicates (a virus needs a live cell's organs to replicate, since a virus doesn't have those organs - a virus is little more than a capsule around a genetic string). If you attach an antibody to the spike protein, it changes its spatial configuration and it no longer fits the receptor, therefore the virus can't attach, can't penetrate the cell and dies out. That's why we call these antibodies, neutralizing. They neutralize the virus' only chance at replicating, by denying entry to the human cell.

mRNA vaccines are an advancement. They are more sophisticated, more flexible, better, and have more immunogenicity (that is, they foster a better immune response) than whole attenuated virus vaccines (like the Chinese CoronaVac). Up to this pandemic, no mRNA vaccine had ever been successfully launched in the market. Now two have been (Moderna and Pfizer) and one failed (CureVac). So now the avenue to this technology is wide open, and it will have multiple applications, not only for viruses but also for cancer.

 

Thanks, good to see you around again as well.

I’m going to have to disagree a bit here. It is true antibodies to the N are binding. But binding antibodies fill a huge role in clearing infections. We don’t understand all the minutia yet—but we probably only understand 5% of what goes on with our immune system. But we do know binding antibodies facilitate phagocytosis and are now learning about how they work with T cells.

As far as N antigen binding antibodies they do in fact play a large part in clearing infection.

https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/embj.2020106228

As far as binding antibodies in general, we have found binding antibodies and T cell response to spike is responsible for early protection immediately after Covid vaccination before neutralizing antibodies to spike are produced.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666634021001525

I’m not referring to cross reactive coronavirus immunity pre SARS-CoV-2 infection. I’m referring to immunity resulting from Covid producing antibodies and cellular immunity components that are cross reactive with other endemic and novel coronaviruses. I point this out to show cellular immunity from Covid infection has great depth and breadth and therefore great ability to provide protection from severe disease even if no protection from infection.

Agree 100% on recombination. It’s been a huge concern of mine all along. But so far point mutations seem to be the biggest threat. Co-infection with two variants is an interesting idea. You would think with as much typing as is going on now we would have data on how common it is. I would not be surprised if some of the same mechanisms that prevent co-infection with influenza etc. aren’t in play with Covid variants as well but that’s just speculation.

That’s interesting I had heard about that but not details. I find it fascinating still that VOC’s are all from places with no evidence of recombination. I still can’t figure why the US hasn’t produced a much worse variant.

I upload it’s something we should not consider impossible.

I’m disappointed as well but not a bit surprised. People are just behaving like they have been conditioned to behave. As far as PPE, I’m sickened so many domestic producers retooled and built infrastructure to produce N95 masks with the understanding government would at least recommend their use if not outright buy and distribute them and have now been hung out to dry. This was probably the last nail in the coffin of all PPE being foreign sourced—no company is going to risk capital in the future when they see they are likely to lose their shirt.

I really thought the vaccines would do the trick until delta. Now I agree—time to admit it’s not going to “go away” no matter who’s president or how much we want free of it. Oh, yeh, type C influenza—an interesting buggar that we are still figuring out. Good call to include it.

 

Yeah but the do have a Boris Johnson and a Scott Morrison ,p

 

Can you make it so it takes out all creepers (rapists and pedophiles)?

 

33% and 20% fully vaccinated if you are trying to build faith in the vaccine and get the reluctant to submit, this is a poor way to go about it.

Just makes me more apt to wait until we know more about this vaccine.

 

Have to ask those folks in the lab who recklessly engineer those dangerous pathogens, to the detriment of humanity and unleash these scourges.

 

Agent Smith expressed that sentiment well in the trilogy series of The Matrix when comparing humanity to a virus....was he onto something?

 

Nice sig line, it meshes well with what you expressed when telling us you think those who wont mask or take the vaccine dont "deserve" your haughty attention.

"obamacare"? what obamacare? Just go home and die, right? I told you so...

 

again, I said targeting the spikes was the better way to go, you're agreeing with me

I was asking if the the covid vaccine will be the last vaccine we see like that as it cuts into corporate profits, to them a yearly vaccine like for the flu is more profitable

let me ask, do you think they will redo the flu vaccine? or leave it the way it is so that we have to get shots yearly?

 

Yes, like I said in post #74, binding antibodies signal cytotoxic T cells - and in previous discussions I mentioned the phagocytes system - but what I'm saying is that it's not sufficient and not as robust as neutralizing antibodies when you are facing an onslaught of trillions of circulating copies of a very aggressive virus - you certainly agree with that. The cell-mediated response is important but gets overwhelmed if you don't have a huge peak of neutralizing antibodies. See, if we wanted to make mRNA to teach human cells to make binding antibodies against the N protein, we could have... but we focus on the S because it's much more efficient. And mRNA vaccines targeting the S protein also do trigger cell immunity, as you know.

Ah, OK, what you said about cross-reactivity is prospective, for future coronaviruses, not just being resistant to this coronavirus from previous encounters with benign ones. Agreed.

Yes, incredible how there are reliable domestic makers of N95 and they got no support during this huge pandemic. Instead, people recommended cloth masks... sad.

 

Cuts into corporate profits? We'll probably need an yearly or even more frequent Covid-19 vaccine too, and they provide plenty of profit.
The flu vaccine does need to be redone yearly, as well. Influenza A mutates fast, faster than the coronavirus.
Yes, there is ongoing research being done about permanent influenza vaccines that would get whatever mutation that comes up. We'll see if this effort ill succeed.
A lot of flu vaccines are made by governmental entities in other countries. It's not all corporate profits, for the flu.

 

maybe, they say if the spikes changed, the keys may no longer work, thus that variant would not be harmful to humans, attacking the keys of the virus may prevent us from needing yearly shots, we may need a booster still, but not yearly shots like the flu

 

Sorry, missed your post on binding antibody activity. I only had time to read responses to my posts for the most part yesterday. Of course we agree on facts….LOL.

To expound on that a bit, from my study of the immune system (and life in general) we seldom (maybe never) conserve functions or anatomical features that serve no purpose. It’s a waste of resources. What we sometimes see as vestigial or unimportant is just something we haven’t figured out yet. One we’ve discussed before is the function of endothelial cells beyond their simple physical barrier properties.

This is why I’m opposed to focusing solely on neutralizing antibodies at this point. When we can’t accomplish what we want with one tool we must look to others. The focus on neutralizing antibodies was sensible and I’ve sung their praises, but delta has shown they aren’t going to save us from Covid today. A nasally administered vaccine would be a good next step, but I think we need to learn how to maximize the entire immune response, not just neutralizing antibodies. Yes, cellular immunity did result from these vaccines but it wasn’t the design feature.

 

The AGW faithful certainly believe this. Folks like Soros and Gates wax on endlessly about what "sustainability" looks like, and the numbers they use are from population expert from Stanford who told them that at best 1-2B people are the max. (oh, and the most ironic qualifier of all time the guy said something to the effect that "To continue the quality of life we currently enjoy" meaning that this population target was sufficient to continue maintaining the elites. Think about that for a minute. These folks actually believe they can "manage" the world population to continue to allow them their luxuries.

 

Again, I really doubt it will work like this. If the spikes change so much that the key doesn't work, that strain will die out immediately, and another strain for which the key works will just take over. Of course we'd be lucky if this happened to all strains and the pandemic petered out, but what has been happening so far is that the mutations in the spike protein are going the opposite direction; are making the spike attach better to the receptor, are making the key more proficient, not less.

In 18 months of pandemic we got several variants of concern, one of which (Delta) has been re-infecting people who had the disease before (actually two because the Gamma does it too) and even people who had both an ancestral variant and are fully vaccinated are getting re-infected, so I think that yes, chances are that we'll need yearly shots.

 

Excellent points. I was reading these days a trade article with some references that I didn't explore; so not a scientific study, but some virologists in the United Kingdom were saying, if we mix and match mRNA vaccines for more neutralizing antibodies with viral vector and/or inactivated vaccines for more cell immunity, we might get a better overall result. So there are studies going on with AstraZeneca + Pfizer (although I'm not so sure that DNA-Adenovirus vector vaccines will be that much better in fostering cell immunity, but I would like to see a study with CoronaVac (which is a whole virus inactivated vaccine) + Pfizer or Moderna, with the CoronaVac providing antibodies to other viral structures like the N protein and a whole virus fostering the signaling for the T cells and phagocyte system, while the mRNA vaccines gets the neutralizing antibodies going. That is, we'd attack the virus in a two-pronged assault that better mimics the immune cascade.

Don't read me wrong, I'm not calling cell immunity vestigial or unimportant. Of course it is very important and we wouldn't have vaccine memory and long-term protection without it and ultimately cell response does result in the secretion of new antibodies so the humoral and cell responses are linked - the immune system is a complex, interdependent system. I was just saying that for this very aggressive virus, cell response is not enough; by the time cell response alone would clear the infection the patient would already be dead. Given the virulent nature of this virus, good protection is achieved when you have a large titer of neutralizing antibodies already there from a recent mRNA vaccine.

Another interesting research venue would be to include in a vaccine two mRNA strains, one for the S protein and one for another viral protein like M or E which also exist in the surface of the envelope.

 

According to the so-called "Georgia Guidestones" which mysteriously appeared decades ago, their ideal world population is half a billion!

Waiting for the end of the world...

But it's the written messages of the Guidestones that have drawn the most criticism...

... the first two - which call for limiting human population to half a billion, less than 10 percent of today's numbers, and guiding reproduction "wisely" - have led some to call the Guidestones a call to genocide....

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/22/georgia.mystery.monument/index.html
.

 

We should just call them what they are. The UberMensch Eugenicists they've always been. The Democratic party in this nation are actively investing in dependence to achieve their goal of population management. It's just a process that takes time. They seem patient.

 

A relative small number of rich and powerful cultural marxist globalists have used their control of governments and mass-media to foster their evil agendas. For many decades they have used their control and influence to reduce the global population by effecting social changes by promoting "zero population growth", destroying the traditional concept of marriage and family, promoting abortion and homosexuality, etc. But as of now world population is still increasing. So many believe the globalist elite have resorted to this worldwide pandemic/vaccine to commit mass genocide.

.

 

as I said, chances the keys change and still work is slimmer than if the vaccine did not target the spikes like the flue vaccine does

you sounded like you agreed with me before, you don't now?

the vaccine does not stop you from getting the virus, it only trains your body to fight it *if* you do get it

I got the vaccine, I choose to train my immune system

but like I said, the spikes could change enough that the vaccine doesn't help, but it's less likely, not impossible

 

No, not really, I still don't think you're understanding this right. The spike protein is not changing as much as you think and it's changing to fit BETTER the keyhole, not worse. Now of course if neutralizing antibodies are attached to the spike protein, it won't fit the keyhole. But it's not the vaccine that is making or not making the spike protein mutate (as demonstrated by Delta, the one with the most proficient spike protein changes that cause its much bigger infectiousness, having surfaced in December 2020 in India when vaccination in India only started in January 2021).

Contrary to popular belief, it's not the vaccines that are doing this, one way or the other (not for better and not for worse). The virus is mutating spontaneously and these variants of concern all occurred in India, Brazil, South Africa, Peru, etc., much before these countries achieved a significant vaccination rate.

 

I hadn’t heard about the vaccine salad idea. Makes sense I guess.

I bolded the only thing I think we still differ on. In my previous link there was information showing vaccines are protecting people from symptomatic infection and severe disease prior to detection of neutralizing antibodies in the vaccines. So I don’t think it’s accurate to say cellular immunity can’t protect without neutralizing antibodies. I do agree neutralizing antibodies should be part of the equation however and are the only way to prevent asymptomatic infection.