Sowell: Who Shut Down the Government? (great read)

They didn't "dictate". They aren't going to vote to fund the ACA, and no one can force them to. Congress will decide how much to fund, and how long to fund legitimately passed laws. There are thousands upon thousands of legitimately passed laws since this country began. I think we still got horse and carriage laws. They almost never repeal laws. They kind of just stop funding them, at Congress's discretion. Obama is the one saying fund this particular law, or I won't sign a budget that funds anything. And imo, he's got an absolutely ridiculous argument.

Ted Cruz's position that he will not vote to fund ACA is a perfectly legitimate position to have. It's a 3k page law, that no one understands, and he's a terrorist because he doesn't want to vote to fund it? I'm glad he's taking a stand and voting how he wants to, despite Obama's demands that he won't sign a bill that funds anything unless Cruz votes to fund ACA. Who has the ridiculous position here?

 

And vice-versa.

 

When did you decide the Constitution need not be followed?

 

But yet somehow, you don't seem to be fearful of the power shift in US separation of powers if this POTUS, and all future ones, can just refuse to sign a budget unless it includes every single law funded to the amount of the POTUS's choosing. As in the POTUS can just refuse to fund everything, based on the funding or lack of funding he finds disagreement with on a single law in the budget.

 

So I guess unless I'm corrected on my timeline, I'll let my fellow vets know when we will not only get our benefits back, but when we will stop being threatened with their cuts: When Repubs vote to fund the ACA.

See how that is a little easier to understand than: we'll get our benefits back when "the Tea Party stops making terrorist demands"? For those affected during this shutdown and prior fiscal debacles, as well as those who were threatened during these embarrassments, "When Repubs vote to fund ACA" is a much more identifiable event that we can watch for as a signal to the end of this crap.

The other identifiable event to provide us relief from 2 years of threats and now action, is "Reid passes a budget that funds govt without ACA, and the POTUS signs it."

Until one of these 2 events happens, vets, fed workers, and many other people, will be periodically threatened or acted upon.

 

People are suffering. When will it end????

[video=youtube;nIZ9jsUB4NM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIZ9jsUB4NM[/video]

 

The government is shut down because infant right wing zealots, didn't get their way, and are terrorizing everyone until they get their way. No other possible way to look at it.

 

Obama didn't end the Iraq war??? Obama campaigned on ending the war, hunting down Bin Laden ( are you saying that he didn't get him either?) and reforming Healthcare. He accomplished all three. How on earth can you say that Obama didn't end the war in Iraq? He was the president in office for several years while we were still there and he ended it. Are you also saying that Truman didn't end WWII? Obama was opposed to it from before he became a US Senator, he ran with the promise to end it, and he got the nomination over Hillary because she supported the war. He said he was going to do it. He got elected. And he ended that war. Are you re-writing history here for some reason?

 

Predicting the future is a Republican pastime. Nobody can predict the future. If we could, we'd all win the Lottery. This entire thing sits on Boehners shoulders. Just bring the clean CR to the floor for a vote. That's it.
Why won't he do that? There are enough Republicans and Democrats combined to pass it. Done.

You can't threaten to shut down the government, and take the country into default unless the president agrees to negotiate....and call that negotiation. That's extortion. This began with Ted Cruz convincing the House Repubs that they should do this unless the President agrees to defund the ACA. That's like saying I want to take your car ( Obamacare) and if you don't agree, I'll burn down your house ( the economy of the United States and the rest of the world while were at it) and then claiming that your not negotiating and if the house burns down its all your fault. Surely you can see what is going on here.

You want to predict the future? Here's what would happen if Obama agreed to this crap. The Republicans would do it again and again and again, because they would know that Obama would cave in to extortion. He's NOT going to do that. He's not going to undermine the office of the presidency by submitting to extortion for political gains. It would set an impossible precedent for all future executives. It would also show terrorists and other states that the President can submit to coercion and extortion. What they are demanding is the entire set of policies that lost in the election. The election that He won. What they can't get by winning the election, they figure they'll get through extortion. Why did they shut down the government? Boehner did this. It's in his hands to bring it to the floor. Why won't he do that?

 

No, I don't credit it for him because the plan to end the war in 2011 was a established plan with the Iraq and US governments, and said plan was established by the bush administration, not the Obama, he just finished plans that Bush had put into play.

 

The ACA is a Law and it's not discretionary spending. In other words Obamacare is pre-funded. It's happening right now regardless of all of this nonsense. Shutting down the government doesn't stop the ACA. This amounts to theater. What they want to do is defund something that is already a part of the mandatory spending, like Social Security or Medicare. Again, the ACA is NOT discretionary spending.

It's true in the sense that for the Republicans it's the ACA or nothing. That's exactly what you're seeing right now, and the reason why the government is shut down right now. They want to repeal a law. They called it unconstitutional and they lost. They used it as a campaign issue, and they lost again. What they want is to get their way through threats of government shut downs and defaults that they couldn't get through the democratic process.

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Yes it's ridiculous. Every aspect of the budget is in our law. Obama AND the Senate and enough Repubs in the House along with all the Democrats all agree to this. Only a minority of the party that lost is blocking this. Tell me why Obama should agree with these demands, when he won every argument on this very thing.

You'll get your government back when the Repubs in the House pass the budget which can be done if Boehner brings it to the floor for a vote. There is no rational reason for a small minority to extract demands through threats of shutdowns which are meaningless since the ACA is still happening despite what they're doing.

Conservatives, especially Paul Ryan and Rand Paul always talk of F.A. Hayek as their model.
Hayek said this: “When I say that the conservative lacks principles, I do not mean to suggest that he lacks moral conviction. The typical conservative is indeed usually a man of very strong moral convictions. What I mean is that he has no political principles which enable him to work sets of values that makes it possible to build a peaceful society with a minimum of force. The acceptance of such principles means that we agree to tolerate much that we dislike.

I know of no general principles to which I could appeal to persuade those of a different view that those measures are not permissible in the general kind of society which we both desire. To live and work successfully with others requires more than faithfulness to one’s concrete aims. It requires an intellectual commitment to a type of order in which, even on issues which to one are fundamental, others are allowed to pursue different ends.”

They'd do well to take his advice.

 

None of this is going to matter. If Obamacare is implemented fully, you will have enough young people and businesses who decide it's cheaper and more economically feasible to pay the fine than it will be to buy the "healthcare" insurance. When that happens, the healthcare system will collapse in upon itself because the ONLY way for the system to fund itself is for the businesses to start paying for insurance for healthy people who do not use it and for young healthy people to pay for insurance that they're not going to use so that they can pay for the millions of poor people who will use the healthcare and pay nothing into the system and the elderly and unhealthy who will take more out of the system than they put in.

The entire premise was a failure from the beginning and it is inevitable that it will fail.

 

All procedural issues resulting from the fact that we are in a process of passing CR's to fund the govt. So yes, I can see your concern for future Pres's being extorted into doing what a small minority wants, but he can only be influenced like this if we are in a CR status. It still goes back to why the Senate doesn't have a budget like the Constitution says they must. So those affected by the shutdown, will still be affected and threatened in the future, as long as we are in CR status. Which means, if we want to know when this will end, it has nothing to do with CR's, and anything that happens with them. It has to do with passing a budget. So once again, I'll keep looking for Repubs to vote to fund ACR in a budget OR Obama and Reid supports a budget that doesn't fund ACA.

 

Please point out in the Constitution where it says that the Senate must pass the House budget. You've been making this baseless claim for days. Time to prove your claim.

 

It doesn't. They must negotiate to pass a budget. Crying because some members don't want to fund a single law (the ACA), especially considering hardly anyone understands the law that is being fought over, as an excuse for not funding anything in the entire govt is unacceptable imo. They need to do their jobs and compromise. A compromise isn't: "Yes, we know there are thousands of laws, but if you don't do exactly as we say in regard to this law (ACA), we aren't going to agree with you on funding on any of the other laws." That sounds childish to me.

 

Exactly. It doesn't. So your repeatedly blaming the Senate is hogwash.

As to Obamacare, it is a legitimately passed law to be funded the same as all other legitimately passed laws. The Tea Party knowingly and intentionally damaging our nation to extort blocking that one law because they cannot do it by legitimate means is more than childish, it is unconscionable.

 

Well, I guess we ought to go ahead and get back to insurance companies denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, kicking people off of being covered cause their sickness costs them too much, or all of the other great stuff insurance companies do for profit, that the right wing didn't even think was a problem to begin with.

 

That is exactly what we should do.... with a few tweaks like tort reform. The way the system was set up before, it was more than sustainable long-term for the VAST majority of americans. The way the system is set up now, it's not sustainable long-term for ANYONE.

 

Perhaps there is no other way for you to look at it.

Have you decided that the Constitution can be discarded? I hope the House Republicans continue to fight the moral fight.

 

If you feel strongly that people should not be responsible for their own lives why not join with other like minded individuals and raise the money yourself to pay for others? Why do you believe you have a greater claim to the wealth I create than I do?

 

It is being treated exactly as all other laws. There is a reason why appropriations bills are required to fund programs. MessiahCare is a bad law. I am grateful that the Conservative Republicans in the House and Senate are fighting this fight on my behalf.

 

Knowingly and intentionally damaging Obama care. Its the Democratic Senate and President who are damaging the country in response. Blocking funding for 98% of government, to force the Republicans to agree to fund the other 2%

 

Completely wrong, but funny! I must give you credit.

The GOP says the DEMS want big government. The GOP says they want small or no government. Take a wild guess at which one shut down the government???? Just one is all you will need.

 

That's exactly what it seems like. They are holding this ACA law up as some sort of revolutionary discovery in our health care system, but when you ask people supporting ACA just exactly how those 3k pages devise a sustainable health care system, they simply recite Dem talking points. EVERYONE has been told what to think of this specific law.

The problem with the Dems argument stems from those of us who are neither Repub nor Dem. In our minds, their argument doesn't make sense. Why are we holding out for this specific 3k page law, which we don't want changed for any reason (except for reasons determined by the pres) before we will fund the entire govt??? It just doesn't make sense that my govt will open, when Congressional members change their support for ACA. Until then, we got problems.

 

So blocking funding of federal agencies because you don't like a 3 year old piece of legislation makes sense to you? Really? If you wanted to defund ACA, then you should have gotten the votes to block it at the time, not when it goes into effect.


Gotta love the hostage taker mentality. "I'm willing to let 98% of the hostages go if you're willing to let us go free". Blaming anyone but the GOP for the shut down is the absolute height of stupidity.