The coup investigation is about to enter a new phase.

This is not true.

Mark Meadows, central in Republican leadership, and a number of others in congress believe the election was fraudulent.

The Republican party has NEVER held anyone in office to account for their stated belief of the presidential election being fraudulent.

Also, there were Republican congressmen at the state level who were PART OF THE INSURGENCY!!!

I'd sure like to hear from you where you got this idea of yours.

Please cite something. I do want to know.

 

I don't believe that for ONE SECOND.

Remember that there is no law concerning what would happen after an insurgency ended the completion of our election.

So, what would be an "unlawful order"?

The state of affairs would be that under the state of emergency, the president would be in a position to determine what comes next. Would the certification process be resumed on some future date? Would there be an election "do over"? Etc.

The military wouldn't be in a position to pass on that policy - it is NOT their job.

I'm not claiming that he would turn American into a dictatorship. For SURE he wouldn't suggest he was doing that. But he certainly could take far reaching actions, especially involving the treatment of the election, his own tenure, etc.

Would congress oppose him? Maybe the House would have but Trump has demonstrated that he can totally ignore everything the House does. And, many Senate Republicans were actually BEHIND the insurgency. And, McConnell has show NO pushback on this issue. He's still fine with QAnon, Mark Meadows, and others.

 

You should rename this subforum as the fact free comedy show.

 

OK. I'll try again. We'll get there at some point. Just hang with me.

What you are thinking about is the "legality" of the situation. What I'm talking about is the "pragmatics" of such an event.

Our military's job is to protect our (We, the People) interests, domestically and globally. Do you agree with that statement?

Our President relies on them to do that and makes decisions about when, where and how they do that. Do you agree with that?

There are policies and procedures in place on how that chain of command works with various contingences. For example, Biden will never be assassinated and nobody will ever try to assassinate him because none of us want Harris or Pelosi near the football. They are his life insurance policy.

Therefore, if the Capitol rioters located our then-VP Pence and held him as collateral to make demands or severely injured or killed him, then-President Trump would have to make the next call. That's his job. If his next order was anything except whatever would get them to capitulate and return Pence unharmed, he would, in effect, have resigned his position as POTUS and subject to arrest by whatever law enforcement agency has jurisdiction. At that point, the military would be responsible for securing the White House until other elected officials and whatever law enforcement agency determined how to proceed.

Sure, Trump could fuss and whine (even more than he already does) but he would have to stand for the charges against him for his role and dereliction of his duties as POTUS> and let it make it's way up to the Supreme Court. There would be NO pathway to him taking control of the White House and left to run amok while they figure it out.

Did you happen to read that thread about somebody in his cabinet contacting his counterpart in China to reassure them that our country was stable and there would no declaration of war? At that time, it was said that Xi was a bit concerned because Trump was not doing well after Election Day and that was just his public pity party. Can you imagine how many countries' leaders would have been sweating bullets if he completely snapped and allowed Pence to be harmed of killed? That's probably why he lied to his rally attendees about walking with them. If he was there, front and center, he wouldn't have been able to distance himself from what transpired. As it stands, he was called on to make the call and wouldn't do it. While the building was being breached, he was imploring Senator Lee to stop the certification.

And, just like we all witnessed, he wet his nappy in public a thousand times since the day after Election and, regardless, things moved on in spite of January 6, 2021. He didn't just get to say "I won by a lot" and everybody would just say "Oh, okay. You can sit there until this makes it on the court docket." and we just have Biden sit tight until that's done.

Law enforcement's job is to stabilize a situation. The miltiary's job is to protect our country (our flag, not our President) and Trump knows this although he doesn't like it. That's why he and the vapid wench didn't just turn into squatters. They couldn't. His advisers have earned their keep because I bet it was hell to get him the hell out of there.

--------------------
As an aside, I will share an experience I had years ago. I was a business consultant at the time and had the task of bring together two sides among Board members as they weren't able to effectively negotiate the matter among themselves. In summary, the President of the company did some illegal and immoral things and his sanity was called into question which was the catalyst. They wanted to get everyone together to work on a plan on the next step because the guy refused to resign and tried to bully the board members that voted for his termination. This went on for a while.

The Board members secretly planned to meet at a site outside the company to try to get this sorted out. Somebody tipped off the President about the meeting and he showed up. There were a bunch of tall hedges near the building and he went behind them to watch the parking lot. As each Board member approached the entrance, he grabbed them, dragged them behind the bushes and threatened them and/or their families. Every Board member that had voted for his termination in the initial count walked inside and voted against it. So, in essence, he was *still* the President because the votes turned unanimous because of what he did.

However, because of his intimidation and threats, the Board enacted their "forced removal" contingency plan and had him arrested which also involved a required psychological assessment. It went through the courts and he lost his case because of the criminal actions against those board members. And, that company is way smaller than our elected officials in Washington.

----------------------------------------------------------

Don't worry. It will never happen because Trump is a snake and he knows how to slither just up to the edge of criminal behavior and leave others holding the bag. He is more passive-aggressive (which is also a sign of deep insecurity). I'm sure his inner circle have told him that he doesn't want to go toe-to-toe with our military. They act first. Take names later. He wants no part of that...you know, bone spurs and all.

 

NO. The military doesn't pass on whether a presidential directive should result in the arrest of the president!

Remember that Trump has done many things that are clearly illegal. And, there is NO CHANCE that the military would be involved in that.

This is just your political nonsense.

If you were even SLIGHTLY serious, you would look at pass assassinations and note that your logic is RIDICULOUS in all cases.

This has more of the same problem already addressed at the outset of my comments.

This doesn't apply in ANY way.

Plus, I'd point out that the act of a secret meeting of the board was itself is fully improper. If this happened in government, it would be illegal, and those members of the secret meeting could face legal ramifications.

Now, you use the "what me worry" defense.

But, what I proposed would be fully rational acts by Trump. In fact, ANY president would face that emergency without there being laws stating what happens next.

And, those actions would not necessarily be illegal, even if they were hugely beneficial to the president and his party.

Trump or any other president in that situation would undoubtedly retain his presidency beyond January.

And, if significant numbers became convinced that the election was fraudulent, as Trump and Republicans LOUDLY claimed, it's VERY hard to believe that the next step Trump would choose would be to recertify the electoral college outcome.

 

You are still ignoring the point. Yes, Trump has done a billion illegal things and the military didn't get involved, but none of those things involved him actually giving the order to have our VP killed and/or refusing to leave the White House.

P.S. Secret meetings to get rid of a President are commonplace in Corporate America. Do you think Pence would have called meeting about the 25th and invited Trump for a spot of tea and crumpets while they deliberate?

 

You keep forgetting that the damage I've proposed that Trump could do doesn't have ANYTHING to do with murdering anyone or breaking any laws that exist today.

And, the evidence we have of what our military would do is CLEAR.

And, it certainly didn't have anything to do with protecting our democracy from those who attacked it!!!

 

All that's required is you open your eyes. Any government election be it governor, senator, congressman or mayor, you will notice the republican candidate will have the blessing of trump. Any republican who doesn't support trump's claim that the election was stolen will not have trump's blessing. In fact that candidate will be ridiculed by trump and when possible thrown under the bus.

 

And, we agree on that point.

We don't agree on how it would go down if he made a more direct attack.

 

Absolutely.

In fact, Trump gave his support to a candidate for governor of Alaska on the contingency that he would refuse to support Lisa Murkowski - who is an incumbent Republican senator from Alaska!!

The problem isn't even just that he only supports Republicans.

He demands that Republicans he supports be total toadies to his brand of Republican extremism.

 

I don't know what you are proposing that is a more "direct attack" than promoting the insurgency and taking the actions I indicated as possible had the insurgency been successful enough for those certifying the election to flee or their job terminated.

Besides, we already know for SURE that the military and its branches FAILED to even attempt to defend our democracy against the insurgency.

We already know that the Capitol Police and others on the site were NOT given support and have NOT received subsequent honor for their sacrifice.

 

What does that sentence (in blue) mean?

 

I am trying to understand your position. Getting worked up is not helping.

Can you explain to me how it is possible that anybody could take VP Pence hostage and/or kill him would not lead to immediate arrest if not execution?

Can you explain to me how it is possible that anybody could terminate VP Pence?

The military didn't fail. The military wasn't even called until the building was breached. Trump did the stall on that.

Man, seriously? Do you live in an underground bunker with no access to the internet? You should have told me that from the beginning. I've been working on the assumption you were up-to-date on all that.

 

I don't see that as the question. The question is whether TRUMP would be arrested by our military. And, I don't see any chance of that, at least within MONTHS of investigation, etc.

Plus, I don't see a murder of Pence as being a defining issue in what might slow Trump. The big deal is terminating the certification of the election. Following that, Trump would have LOTS of options, not fewer options.

That one is EASY. A band of insurgents entered the building where the certification was ongoing. Pence was in that room. The insurgents got to the point where there was an officer. The insurgents demanded that he take them to where the certification was (or where Pence was? Not sure of the specific demand).

That officer took them down the hallway to the left. The hallway to the right led DIRECTLY to where Pence and the certification were happening.

THAT is how close it came. That band of insurgents STATED their intent.

YES. The military followed the president, even in slow-walking the defense of our democracy.

But, you are STILL just plain flat out ignoring what I've said!

Had the insurgency been successful in stopping the certification, the military would not have responded by assuming it was the president and thus finding him and arresting him!!! Good lord!! That's just plain SILLY.

OK, here it is again:

What would come next is that Trump would be president on January 7 and would face the questions of whether the certification should be restarted, whether there should be more election investigation to validate the choices of electors, whether there should be a new election, whether the election should be thrown to the House (or Senate??), etc.

None of that response to the end of certification would be illegal. And, it would be cataclysmic for America.

And, outside of trying to maintain the peace, it wouldn't involve the military AT ALL.

 

That is the question for the simple fact that Trump called his supporters, stirred the pot, lied to them about Pence's role and left to grab some popcorn and watch it on tv far away safe and sound.

If Pence or any other elected official had been kidnapped and/or hurt and/or killed, how could anybody NOT include Trump in the interrogations? Slimy McConnell even said it aloud and then tucked tail. The ONLY reason Trump was able to distance himself is that he was not physically there. Don't see how that would have changed the whole trajectory on who would respond and when?

The way the criminal justice system works is a crime is committed, they figure out who did it and fill in the blanks later.
Or, a crime is committed, they follow the clues and figure out who did it.

The "who dun it?" part is already answered in the Capitol scenario. He probably wouldn't even be taken into custody before his slimy attorney screamed "foul" and he zipped his lips but every single person that left a hair follicle in, around or near the Capitol building that day would be picked up and questioned.

How can you possibly think the cold-blooded murder of our seated VP caused by our seated POTUS would have NO impact on what Trump would have been given carte blanche to do next? He literally said that Pence had the power to do something different even when he KNEW, for a fact (because Pence and his attorneys told Trump that) and he put the target right on his back counting on his cultists not know the law, or the legality of his role in certifying the votes. If nothing else, that makes him at least an accessory to murder.

I have a question for you if you don't mind.

Why would Trump tweet for people to come to the Capitol on January 6, 2021, pump them full of lies and hate and send them on the attack to find Pence IF all he had to do was terminate the certification process? He could have invented 10,000 easier ways to do that was *all* that was necessary.

Play this out. We all saw what happened. Let's say they didn't get Pence to safety and he was held hostage in an effort to get him to stop the process. He stops the certification process under duress obviously. Then what? Everybody shakes hands and goes home and we all wake up to Orange Jesus retaining the seat? What do you think would happen if Pence or anybody else was forced to do anything under duress and everyone in the free world with a computer, phone and/or television witnessed it?

Trump has been soiling his nappy for over a year now about that election. Other than getting some back-biting, slimy, immoral cowardly Rs to kiss his @ss in Florida, what has he gained besides weight?

Some Trump supporters are sane. Do you really think that he could put a target on Pence's back, Pence gets killed as a result and all of them would just shrug it off? All of them would sanction the murder of our seated VP?

Let's recap...
Trump left a Summit because other leaders were gossiping about him.
Trump got mad at Merkel and pouted like a petulant child.
Pelosi told him that he was xenophobic to ban travel to/from China and he backed down.
Some of his supporters booed him last week for suggesting the get the vaccine.

Earlier this year, he flew to New York and he was upset because nobody was there to greet him. Junior tweeted that is dad was upset about it and asked his supporters to come to a certain part of town so Trump could make another "entrance" and be surrounded by his fans.

Do you see the problem yet, WillReadMore? The person described above is the one you think is going to stand toe-to-toe with anybody? The Rs aren't kissing up to him because they agree with him. They know he comes as a package deal with millions of voters so they tolerate him. I'm sure when they get together the conversations are much worse than whatever made him wet his nappy at the Summit.

He isn't going to suddenly grow a pair and take the Oval Office back by force. Notwithstanding the bone spurs, we're talking about somebody that has no redeemable qualities. Not one. Real men don't back down to Pelosi, outpace the Queen, insult the Pope and leave our soldiers and Afghani friends to be overtaken by the Taliban he let out in the 11th hour to point the blame at his successor. Real leaders aren't afraid of criticism. Real leaders don't bully. Their subordinates are appreciated and respected and want to do a good job for effective leaders.

And, if he couldn't stand up and be a real man and leader with millions of supporters, how well do you think he would do when a percentage of those people bow out because he had our VP murdered?

We agree on that point. It was that one guy, whatever his name is...trying to spin that it was just a tourist group and nobody was really scared of them. I'm too tired to look it up. Was that Johnson? Some R said that. I remember because he said he wasn't scared but would have been had they been BLM.

The Lord doesn't exist.

You are correct that the official policy is the President can't be arrested. Not in the sense of being taken to jail. However, if he poses a threat to himself or the country, he can be removed. One of those options is the 25th. Pence had already made it clear that he would not invoke that in spite of increasing concerns about Trump's mental health in those final months of his term and that "line in the sand" was probably why Trump planned his rally and speech the way he did. He knew Pence wouldn't discuss the 25th as an option.

Are you saying that Pence was murdered on the 6th and Trump is questioned about moving forward on the 7th?

If that's your hypothetical, I am unclear on how you think that could happen? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, and, I don't feel too well, so my brain hurts. I'm not trying to be obtuse.

Here is where I am stuck.

Let's say that Pence is killed by some of the Capitol rioters. The certification is effectively stopped until somebody figures out a contingency plan. Trump is still the seated President until midnight, on Inauguration Day. He says that the certification is wrong and wants new official numbers from the states. Or, as you mention, he requests a new election, etc..

Since that scenario is unprecedented, it has to be reviewed by an assembly or a judge or the Supreme Court. I don't know who does that stuff but I can't conceptualize a scenario in which our President is complicit in the death of his own VP and everybody wakes up the next day ready to follow his orders. Yes, that can and does happen in North Korea, Russia and China (and those are all his heroes) but that's not how the US is run. Even if they couldn't find some legal loophole to kick him out, they would surely make up something to ease him away from the football. You're making it sound like just another day at the office. Do you REALLY think our fellow Americans are THAT far gone?

OK. Only time will tell.

 

Perhaps,but it is an opinion shared by a majority ofour fellow countrymen.

A majority of voters say they think the investigation of the Jan. 6 Capitol riot is aimed more at scoring political points than offering an independent inquiry into the attack, a new Hill-HarrisX poll finds.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-ame...f-voters-say-jan-6-investigation-is-more-of-a

 

I have pointed out issues that would arise simply as a result of stopping the certification.

Yes, there are worse scenarios in terms of crimes committed.

Had someone been killed or kidnapped, law enforcement would have gone after those who committed that crime. That would not be Trump, obviously.

Trump might find himself defending against charges that he was an instigator, or maybe even that he was a conspirator.

That's what is happening RIGHT NOW, by the way. I don't believe that would be going faster if more people had died.

Again ...

To me, the important issue is that if the election certification were terminated, Trump would continue to be president and would have GREAT latitude in what direction would be taken.

The idea that Biden would still be inaugurated on Jan 20 hits me as HIGHLY unlikely.

 

If a couple hundred peaceful unarmed people can overtake the Capitol then think what would have happened if they were serious , carried guns, literally started shooting people, etc… The crowd was incited by the Capitol police … the videos show they were a peaceful group until the CP started throwing flashbangs, etc and getting those folks riled…there is no excuse for what the protesters did but after watching a summer of riots burning down our cities they sure had a playbook to go by.

 

They carried guns into that building.

They STATED that their intent was to kill the VP (and some others).

Besides the murders they wanted to commit, their intent was to stop our democracy.

They killed an officer attempting to defend.

Why are you interested in supporting that kind of assault on our form of government???

Do you not realize that what they did was treason?

 

No guns were found on the people in the Capitol building ….

Treason is letting the security being less than needed for the forewarned anticipated crowd and not providing protection for ALL Involved…Yep that is actually what the CP and Pelosi oversight is there for…not to shoot Ashli but protect all visitors…Check that treasonous box for Pelosi …

They killed no officer that day….

Why would they bring a flag pole to kill the VP… kind of like bringing a knife to a gun fight…
If there was an intent to attack and kill people, the protesters did a poor job of planning it…

 

WRM, can you point me to anything (law, statute, amendment, anything) that provides a basis for your last sentence?

In the event "something worse" happened, Pelosi would have moved to impeach (as she did with the actual events). Sure, some Republicans might have voted against it, but do you think it would have been unanimous if his part actually lead to the death of our then-VP? It wasn't unanimous even with Pence not being harmed.

Trump would have to nominate someone to fill the vacant VP spot and it would be voted on by Congress. This makes it unlikely that anybody that is okay with the assassination of Pence, would be approved. For all intents and purposes, they could not accept any of the nominees until they get one that is willing to pursue the 25th.

I just don't understand why you think we would just resign ourselves and allow him to plant himself as Dear Leader for Life and burn the Constitution to make it a Trump Dynasty. Sure, he might try it but he has tried to...

force social media sites to unban his crazy @ss,
start a civil war (he's still doing that),
verbally attacked Pence, calling him a p@ssy if he didn't stop the certification,
bully Governors to play with election counts,
bully Senators to stop the certification,
have a backdoor deal with Russia so he could benefit financially from the vaccines,
have the vaccines renamed to Trump,

and much, much more. To date, he hasn't succeeded in any of those goals.

So, why do you think our elected officials and we, Americans that don't worship him, would just capitulate while he runs with reckless abandon to plant himself in the White House forever?

 

Have you ever considered writing science fiction?

 

Yawn......Russia, Russia, Russia 2.0......

 

Just to clarify, this is not how it works. If Biden had not been certified on Jan 6 (or 7) there is some chance that Harris would have been certified as a temporary president, or, if not Harris, Pelosi.