The coup investigation is about to enter a new phase.

I don't believe there are ANY procedures in place to handle what would happen if an insurgency terminated the certification of the presidential election.

And, I don't believe the insurgency would need to kill the VP to cause a state of emergency to exist.

Let's remember that the insurgency INCLUDED those holding high office at the state and federal level, including in the presidential administration. There was wide agreement among Republicans including high officials that the election was fraudulent.

Let's remember that a large number of those in office STILL believe that the election was a fraud.

So, I agree that the outcome isn't clear.

However, I see NO possibility other than that Trump would have used that event to his personal advantage.

The part that isn't known is exactly how he would have done that.

Would he have decided there needed to be a "waiting period" before elections could be reheld?

Would he have screwed with the count as he ALREADY HAD TRIED on NUMEROUS occasions?

 

This is the part that ASTOUNDS me.

How can America, with all our focus on defense not recognize when America is attacked?

How do we tolerate those who organized and participated in this not being in prison.

Treason is a capitol offense. Why isn't the question one of whether Trump should be tried for that crime?

How do we tolerate having CONGRESSMEN partake in this assault?

How does the Republican party accept Meadows as a LEADER, when he worked to END our DEMOCRACY?

 

We can't do it but the entire Republican Party should be outlawed. In most any other country they would be.

 

Well not sure how long it took him to get to a television set to see what was going on and how long then it took for him to tell Senator Lee to stop the process, but I do know I was mad at how Trump treated Pence. I give Pence a lot of credit for doing what he did with the pressure Trump put on him not to do his job. One thing I do dislike about Trump a lot, is how he treats people who disagrees with him. He treated Nikki Haley like crap too when she came out with words that pissed him off and refused to even talk to her. Which is another reason I put up that thread I wish he wouldn't run again. I like a lot of what he did for the economy, VA, and many other things, but he has a rotten disposition and if elected again, he would try and get even with anyone who said the least little thing about him, true or not.

 

Bull****!

 

What I meant is there are procedures in place regarding the chain of command and various contingences. It's not like there has ever been discord in presidential or other elections.

True, however, in the event that Pence had been kidnapped, held for collateral (in this case they would seeking remedy to what they perceived was widespread election fraud) and/or even killed, the next step would have to be military force to take back the White House.

Yes, but, in the event of a hostage situation or execution of our seated VP, the president would have no choice but to call the military into play and they would not be serving him, but serving our country. Once the order is given, he would have been taken into custody and anybody else involved in trying to help him seize the seat. In fact, that outcome is probably why he didn't try to stay in the White House and didn't walk to the Capitol with them. As long as he did his craziness away from the cameras he could stall on getting National Guard back up and spin it (just like he did) because he wasn't there. And, unfortunately, for his most <whatever they are>, they require no proof of anything ever.

It doesn't matter if they think that or not. Trump and none of them can just say "widespread election fraud" and not produce any evidence of that claim. So, their opinions have no value relative to legal remedy. Trump clearly knows this which is why he's trying to mess with election procedures to disenfranchise those he thinks wouldn't vote for him, pushing for DeSantis and Abbot to make laws so that he can spew his craziness with reckless abandon on OTHER people's social media pages and work backdoor deals with any and everybody. The saddest part in all that is he has hoodwinked so many people, they actually believe that he has their backs. How did that work out for the arrestees involved in the Capitol riot? He's a one-trick pony. Everything is about him all the time and to hell with everybody else.

No, it hasn't been carved in stone. However, should the POTUS give an unlawful order, the only response would be justifiable defiance. And, if he gave an unlawful order, and it was ignored because it's not in the best interest of the country, Pence would have had the foundation to start proceedings for the 25th.

It is very clear that he wanted to run for re-election even before this last election took place. He knew he couldn't get the numbers to win because of his abysmal pandemic response. So, he set another plan. Convince his supporters that it was impossible for him to lose without some kind of corruption and cheating and that he is being persecuted. As long as he is able to sell that lie, he is able to collect millions of dollars for months for something that doesn't even exist and he hasn't provided an ounce of substantiating evidence.

Of course he would because that's his only play. It's **always** about him and the people that think he has their back will have to face the truth that he doesn't. Hundreds of people are doing prison time over his nonsense and he hasn't even acknowledged them.

We have a clear picture of what he would have done. He always does the same thing. A simple "divide and conquer" play. As long as he can convince his supporters that he's on their side and "they" are trying to take *their* country he can keep his grift going and they will fight his battle. There is absolutely no pathway to him seizing power in that instance. Sure, they might have been able to keep Pence hostage for a few days to force negotiations but they wouldn't receive their demands and they wouldn't exit the building upright.

Think on that a second. They are angry about the election results. They believe everything he says no matter how ridiculous it is and they don't demand any follow through or proof. What better group of people to con? But, how strong is that stronghold? Some are willing to break the law for him as we all witnesses on January 6, 2021. His silence on all the arrestees' fate is a loud battle cry that he doesn't have anybody's back but his own. Surely, some future would-be-rioters will take pause at the fate that he left the last crew to rot in prison. It just doesn't make sense that EVERY Trump supporter is insane. They might be a tad gullible and uninformed about our Constitution and who he really is but that doesn't make them mentally ill. And, within that subgroup of people willing to risk incarceration, how many are willing to die for him? I feel confident in saying "not too many".

Every single one of us has encountered a situation that just sounded like a bad idea and we walked away from whatever it was. And, most of us, if we critically think about <whatever bad idea> and stop engaging, there is absolutely NO way to remain in denial about whatever lead up to that. In other words, if a staunch supporter

* went to the Capitol that day and doesn't agree with harming police officers, there will be a moment of second guessing.
* If somebody else is not cool with breaking windows and damaging property, there will be a moment of second guessing.
* If someone is not cool with attacking Pence, there will be a moment of second guessing.
* If a person is not okay with stealing other people's property, there will be second guessing.
* If a person is not willing to urinate or defecate outside the facilities for that purpose, there will be second guessing.

Each time one of them second guesses and bows out, all the other "fluff" has to disappear. I've stated in the past few weeks that I wish I had never joined this forum. I've avoided politics my whole adult life and now I can't unknow what I know and that is the same formula for them. In a single moment of clarity, they stopped and wondered what the hell they were doing there. Some of them didn't get that moment of clarity until a judge sentenced them to prison. Since most of his supporters are not mentally ill, why would they *not* look at the non-response from the person the risked their freedom for? They can't spin that. Millions, maybe billions of people know that Trump hung them out to dry. This wasn't him ignoring <the others that don't think live, love or worship the way he claims to and gets his groupies all excited>. Those men and women were 100% in his corner and he still turned his back on them. They will probably never say it aloud but some of them have had clarity.

Trump has always had delusions of grandeur. He's been a jerk his entire life. Even if he hadn't, his supporters should take pause and recognize that he isn't looking out for their best interests.

A POTUS that supported his country...

* Would not have said he takes no responsibility for the spread of COVID in the US on his watch.

* Would have the courage and determination to make decisions and not back down because Pelosi hurt his feelings.

* Would not mock what Fauci and our CDC was recommending for pandemic mitigation.

* Would not have delayed disbursement of the stimulus checks just so they had his name printed on the checks.

* Would not have said he fell in love with a psychopath in North Korea.

* Would not have said China is not at fault for the pandemic (and switched that to they are after he left the White House in a bid to convince his supporters he needed to be re-elected to hold them accountable. That's not going to happen because, if it was, he wouldn't have been kissing up to Xi while he held the seat).

* Would not aspire to be like Putin.

* Would not have released and invited the Taliban to our Camp David.

* Would not have negotiated with terrorists and left them millions of dollars of weapons and equipment (for the sole purpose of that negotiation coming to fruition under Biden's watch) willfully leaving some of our military and our Afghani friends that risked their own lives to help our side to face the Taliban he released.

* Would not have obstructed transition meetings with Biden's Administration to make sure he could hit the ground running since we were facing so many issues and needed our elected official to lead us through it.

He has ALWAYS made it about himself. He doesn't even know how to do anything else and he will do the same thing if he gets re-elected. Nothing for his country. Everything for himself. It breaks my heart that he can p*ss in the wind and his supporters accept that it's raining.

Yes, all he is is destruction and chaos.

 

~ They only went to the Capitol because there was no Wendy's ...

 

I agree. He doesn't have the ability to reciprocate loyalty. If he likes you, he is cool until he doesn't. He thrives on constant attention and he punishes those around him when he doesn't get it because he doesn't know how to self-actualize. He's basically an energy vampire and he drains everyone around him. He is unable and unwilling to get anywhere near anything that he doesn't like. He's constantly firing people and trashing them in public. I was honestly shocked when I heard that he left the Summit because some other world leaders were gossiping about him. Who cares? People like to talk sh!t. If he can't handle that, why should we feel confident that he can handle more difficult situations like running a country? Nobody on this planet that has ever managed employees would hire a cry baby for a leadership role.

And, we're on the same page regarding Pence. I'm not a fan (because he's been too close to Orange Jesus and I don't know if he's irretrievably contaminated from that exposure but I give him props because he deserved hazard duty pay for having to listen to OJ's tantrums all those years. Orange Jesus could not have INVENTED a more loyal and willing VP to give him the limelight and he throws him under the bus? All those people he fired because he didn't think they were being loyal to him by saying aloud they didn't find any widespread fraud is just crazy and the craziest part is he KNOWS that he got fired legitimately. So, he's fired and badmouthed people for something he knows is true. That's a sociopath.

 

I liken it to "there is no honor among thieves." at this point. The only logical explanation for why he hasn't been on the hot seat is he has too much dirt on the other swamp creatures and they also know that he's a package deal. Like it or not, he comes with several million loyal cultists so they rush to Florida to kiss his backside in the hope a photo or two will ingratiate them. It's toxic on every level and it will take years, if not decades, to clean our flag of his evil stench.

 

Sociopath my ass. I know a clinically diagnosed sociopath and he's the nicest guy you'll ever meet. WE are ALL sociopaths, it's just a question of degree, Trump is a purely EVIL individual. The worst part is that he's like the snake that bit the woman even though it killed them both because that was his nature, We're the woman and until Trump is safely in a terrarium it's very likely he's going to kill us all.

 

Conspiracy theories paint fraudulent reality of Jan. 6 riot

Millions of Americans watched the events in Washington last Jan. 6 unfold on live television. Police officers testified to the violence and mayhem. Criminal proceedings in open court detailed what happened.

Yet the hoaxes, conspiracy theories and attempts to rewrite history persist, muddying the public’s understanding of what actually occurred during the most sustained attack on the seat of American democracy since the War of 1812.

By excusing former President Donald Trump of responsibility, minimizing the mob’s violence and casting the rioters as martyrs, falsehoods about the insurrection aim to deflect blame for Jan. 6 while sustaining Trump’s unfounded claims about the free and fair election in 2020 that he lost.
https://apnews.com/article/televisi...ies-congress-0ddc173391135ac2cdaa335e3c9b4881

 

As I understand it Trump called Pelosi (and his administration called the Capitol police) a couple of days before Jan 6 and informed them that the FBI had credible information about trouble at the Capitol on Jan 6, and offered to have the national guard called up. His offer was not accepted because, as I understand it, Pelosi did not want a big spectacle without further proof. My understanding also is that the head of the Capitol police did not agree with Pelosi.

 

AU, is there a particular reason you think sociopathy and niceness or sociopathy and evilness are mutually exclusive, respectively?

What is sociopathy?

Sociopathy is another term for antisocial personality disorder. “It’s a mental health condition where somebody persistently has difficulty engaging appropriately with social norms,” says Dr. Coulter.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/sociopath-personality-disorder/

A mental health disorder characterized by disregard for other people. Those with antisocial personality disorder tend...

* to lie,
* break laws,
* act impulsively,
* lack regard for their own safety or the safety of others.

Well, maybe we can argue he does not fit the definition relative to "disregard for their own safety" because he has that in spades. He is the only person he ever has regard for outside of his disgusting public crush on his own daughter. Nasty.

 

I guess we'll have to wait to find out the truth.

 

1. Trump lied about asking for NG back-up. That was his spin to further distance himself from what transpired at the Capitol. He skated and hundreds of his supporters were arrested and have been sentenced to prison for their role in the Capitol riot. He has basically he turned his back on them.


2. The ONLY reasons some of his more violent supporters were at the Capitol on January 6th, 2021 were.

* He threw Pence under the bus by lying that he had the legal power to not certify the votes.
* He tweeted to them to be there and "it will be wild!"
* He and Giuliani pumped them full of anger to prime them for finding Pence <and ...bad things>.


3. He was the sitting POTUS and could override any red tape if he had chosen to do so. By not doing that, he is not only responsible and complicit in what happened, he is also legally negligent.

And, verifiable evidence has clearly shown that EVEN while LEOs were being attacked, the building had been breached and nobody was aware if they were able to get VP Pence to safety...Trump STILL REFUSED TO MAKE THE CALL FOR NG BACK-UP.

Think on that last sentence please. Notwithstanding any other specific events that day, our seated President refused to call for help when it was abundantly clear to every person on this planet that the building had been breached and law enforcement personnel was outnumbered.

Here it is again...Notwithstanding any other specific events that day, our seated President refused to call for help when it was abundantly clear to every person on this planet that the building had been breached and law enforcement personnel was outnumbered.



So, here's a question for you.

Hypothetically, lets say that nothing between the day after election 2020 had happened. The President never groomed his supporters to think he could only lose because of fraud. He conceded like a gentleman, graciously assisted with the the transition teams and didn't have a very public nervous breakdown. Let's say NONE of that happened. The only piece in this scenario is that same Capitol riot happened.

Q: If you turned on your television and every channel was reporting with live footage while the Capitol riot was taking place and it was reported that then VP-Pence and SOH-Pelosi contacted our President (who has no beef with the election results) for military back-up to get that situation under control and he either refused, stalled or ignored those requests,

(1) could you find any rationalization or justification for that non-response from our President?

(2) And, further, would *any* of his excuses or deflections matter about his failure to act in the best interests of our Capitol police and our other elected officials as quickly as humanly possible?

ETA: Keep in mind, in our legal system, we are compelled to consider what a "reasonable" person would have done in the given situation.

 

You're right, they're not. I just mean to say that most sociopaths are agreeable, on the surface, it's part of their being master manipulators

In the old days sociopaths were called "moral imbeciles" who couldn't grasp the concept of right and wrong. This was eventually discarded as an insult to imbeciles, itself now a discarded term.

Trump goes beyond not understanding right and wrong. He understands it very well and he consciously CHOOSES the morally wrong action in almost all cases I can see. This is why I say he's evil. I realize that makes us uncomfortable in the modern world but I still agree with most conservatives I know in that evil does exist.

 

I agree 100% that he's evil.

 

There is truth in that.

However, the point I was making is that had the Jan 6 attack been successful in blocking the certification of the election Trump would surely have every right to declare a national emergency.

From there, there aren't laws or established procedures on what must come next.

One can only look at the range of possible actions Trump could have taken subsequently.

Let's remember that Trump was dead set against deciding the election based on the electors. And, he had MASSIVE support from Republicans on that.

So, any suggestion that he would have chosen another date to complete the election certification process is something I would suggest is the biggest load of BS imaginable. That is the one direction he would absolutely NOT have taken.

I also doubt he would have turned the election over to the House.

As for the various branches of our military, I would not suspect they would take action against their commander in chief over what Trump might have decided to do next.

 

Let's remember that NONE of those in office believe that the election was a fraud. To tell the truth would be instant suicide for a republican.

 

Maybe your gratitude is premature:

Seventy-percent of Democrats said the investigation is working as an independent inquiry while 79 percent of Republicans and 55 percent of independents said it's more of a political exercise.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-ame...f-voters-say-jan-6-investigation-is-more-of-a

 

If you were Black and staged your crime in SFO or PHL they wouldn't even bother to arrest you as the DAs there are sure to kick you free.

 

I hear you. I do. What you seem to be overlooking is once Trump made any movement AFTER giving the military an unlawful order, he could and would be taken into custody. He'd fight about it and a bunch of whining as usual and court cases and all the usual dysfunction he creates, but there is absolutely no way he could take the White House hostage and plant himself there.

I know he worships Putin, Xi and the guy in NK but the United States has never been and will never be a dictatorship. He has absolutely no control over our food supply, weapons supplies or military (it would cease as soon as he gave an unlawful order). I know he was born with dinosaurs but even he is not THAT stupid. He's evil but he's not crazy.

 

She gets to second guess and police allow or disallow what ever plans they've it is after all her security they are charged with.

Isn't that what I indicated?

 

Sorry, I quoted the wrong post.

 

Happens to all of us eventually