The Religious Left's Misguided View On Capital Punishment.

A spinoff from http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/204530-death-penalty-religion.html

If there is anything more detestable than the Left's unholy acquiescence toward evil as expressed in their opposition to the death penalty, it's the tactics they use; misquoting the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church among them. So let's fight fire with fire:

1. Jesus taught us in the Beatitudes "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy."

2. This teaching highlights 2 truths, that if we act mercifully we shall receive mercy and if we are merciless to our fellow man, we can expect NO MERCY. (the second part the religious Left is completely blind to.)

3. It is the states perogative to bear the sword against evil doers. This is confirmed in Roman 13 and in the CCC (2266) If those who mercilessly slaughter other people are undeserving of mercy, then the state perogative can be asserted with no moral impugnity.

4. No argument can be made that an act of mercy is obligatory in that mercy, strictly defined, goes beyond just reciprocity.

5. And finally, applying the death penalty affirms the sanctity of human life like no other action can. Society speaks volumes about how sacred life is when it levies the harshest penalty for wrongfully taking it. A society that refuses to apply CP invariably encourages murder and ensures it will happen more often simply by divesting itself of its moral obligation to keep society safe.

The religious Left's sickening piety and self righteousness on this issue is telling. In their twisted paradigm the application of justice is bad and the stifling of justice is good. It's a one sided view that leaps to the defense of vicious killers while tacitly ignoring the victim. Their mercy is for the least deserving instead of the most deserving. And worst of all, they are utterly blind to their own rank perversity.

In my humble opinion.

 

Well, I'm not religious and am opposed to the death penalty too.

So where does that place me in your diary of discontents?

As a matter of interest, what does the Bible have to say about the legally executed innocents?

 

Oh, and if any of you Protestant supporters of CP think you got it hard, I'm Catholic, and I get all sorts of crap from fellow Catholics, 90% of whom are CP opponents. They're also the most vocal in telling me how uncatholic and unchristian I am. You haven't seen Catholic ugliness until you stop drinking the abolitionist koolaid

 

It is this kind of twisted doublethink that clued me to the Catholic Church's warped and psychotic sense of "morality" at an early age, and how the Catholic religion can justify all of its contradictory, cruel, and merciless views.

Those things confused me, until, in the 9th grade, I read several different Bibles cover to cover, and realized the Catholic Church had just made up all their dogma and rules, and also changed them to suit their political rulers (the Pope and associated governments) over the centuries.

The new "evangelical, militant Catholic" movement is going all out to show just how whacked out theology can be, and are hard at work giving extremist Muslims a run for the "Whacky and Cruel" prize!

 

That's not hard to answer.

1. Most non religious people oppose the death penalty having (I believe) subscribed to a false humanistic morality that in many ways mirrors that of the religious Left.

2. The death penalty is the oldest law given in the Old Testament. The only older law given was "Don't eat that fruit". In Noah's day there was no forensic evidence, no charter of human rights, and a primitive court system that wasn't canted in defense of the accused. Even with a system far less perfect and prone to error than what we have today, God entrusted the justice of man with this solemn responsibility.

 

A sense of perspective is called for. During the Church's 2000 year history, never before has its members harbored such an antipathy toward CP. This sentiment cannot be found in the early church or among the writings of the Church fathers, that the government should stay its hands against evildoers. Speaking in the context of a 2000 year history, this is nothing more than a pop fad, a fashion trend among adolescents; here today, gone tomorrow. The Church has had strong support for CP...until today. My belief is that a natural correction and reversal to the setpoint is forthcoming.

 

I thought 'Don't eat the fruit' was advice, not law. Where's the statute for a disbeliever like me?

 

I'm pretty sure God was serious about the fruit. He kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden, death and suffering entered into the world, women were inflicted with painful childbirth, thorns and thistles vexed man's attempt to farm the land, yeah, everything pretty much turned to sht...


I'm fairly sure God was serious about that.

 

Well, I guess I am way way out there. I am atheist, and don't support the death penalty.

I don't want them to be killed. I want them making little rocks out of big rocks, in shackles, 18 hours of the day, for the rest of their lives....with a chance of it being 15 hours of the day, for good behavior.

 

I say render unto Caeser the things which are Ceaser's, and unto God the things that are God's.


In other words, let the law judge the actions of the condemned, and leave the judgement of his soul to God.

In other words, let the condemned give his heart to Jesus, but his ass belongs to Caesar.

In other words, religious perspective has no place in polemics involving capital punishment. It is strictly a secular matter.

 

um actually the Orthodox Church has been agianst CP for over a thousand years. Christians were not alowed to join the army, be exicutioners, or order executions. It had to change once Christians began to be in most if not all government positions in the empire. Even Constitine did not get babtised until right before he died so that he would not polute his soul with any more deaths.

 

For a secular argument, you make a very religiously correct point. In fact Jesus labored to draw the line between the kingdom of heaven and the governments of men using several teachings including the "render unto Caeser" teaching. Some people still erroneously think that Jesus was saying to pay taxes when, in fact, he recused himself completly from that and all political issues.

Another example I use often is:

John 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Here Jesus is saying he's not an earthly king, but if he were, his soldiers would fight to defend him from capture. In other words, war would ensue and rightly so for protecting a sovereign is one of the perogatives of the state. For myself, the line drawn cannot be any more clear.

 

This may seem uncharitable, but maybe of the Orthodox had let their boys join the Army, Constantinople would never have fallen to the Moors.

Just an observation.

 

And the trend holds...

Sounds like an Obama jobs program.

 

Just a few more thoughts on this. I don't know if what you're saying is true because it's not really possible on a practical level to suggest that Christians can't be soldiers or be involved in the criminal justice system. I would hate to think you're no different than the Jehovah Witnesses that turn up their nose at military service but are more than happy to let somebody else fight for their freedom. As generalizations go, I think yours is false and is a rendition you'd like to read into your own history instead of accepting what really happened. The Orthodox are our sister Church and the apple didn't fall too far from the tree. (no debate, you can read that any way you want).

But the more I read about the Orthodox official position on the issue, the more I conclude that there is no official position. The overriding rule it seems is that no one bishop's interpretation of Church teaching is any more valid than others. So while a decisive sway is held by the abolitionists, it can never be tied down to a concrete law that governs all synods. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm mistaken, but you'll see that this opinion from the Holy Trinity Orthdox Church picks up on the ambiguity that exists among individual Orthodox Christians:

And so I'm left dealing with the exact same problem that is presented by popular Roman Catholic sentiments, many people who are reading their own strong sentiments into official Catholic teaching instead of accepting the teaching as it is. For this year or for the last 1000 years, it must be concluded that the issue of capital punishment remains unresolved for both our faiths.

 

What happened to "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"? I think it's the religious right that are selecting what they want from the New Testament. For that matter, why do the words of the Old Testament seem to be dearer to the hearts of the religious right than the teachings of Jesus and his Apostles? I thought they were Christians, not Orthodox Jews?

 

If there's anyone being eclectic it's you, rattling off the only passages of scripture you know like any ignorant non-christian with no understanding of the Bible. I laid down a sound biblical foundation not that the Bible supports the death penalty but rather that the Bible considers this a perogative of the state not pertaining to the kingdom of heaven. The Bible isn't like an algorithm to be figured out by some saavy skeptic like you see in the movies. It's neither a math problem nor a jigsaw puzzle to be teased into endorsement of this or that. Understanding it is impossible until you know the Author, and I mean on a personal basis. It's his book.

The simplest way to see it is that the Old Testament clearly supports capital punishment and the New Testament considers this the purview of the state to exercise justice as it sees fit. God doesn't change to be for something and then against it. God is consistant and unchanging and unchangeable. The government has just as much authority to execute criminals as it did in the days of David, the days of Moses, and the days of Noah. I hope that helps.

 

So...mercy is evil. Got it. I'll be sure to let the next priest I see (Haha) know that.

 

I'm not opposed to your way of thinking but what bothers me is miscarriages of justice and everyone cannot deny that such events have occurred. If innocent, a person cannot be brought back once they are dead and I am a supporter of that age old adage ' I would rather let 10 guilty men go free than put one innocent man in jail, especially if the death penalty is involved.'

 

Yeah, all you unbelievers, you!

See, Jesus said "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek", but he didn't MEAN it! He was just talking metaphorically, so when the Catholic Church wants to "Merciful" (as saintmichaeldefendthem defines it) and KILL you, well. that is actually the Word of God, don't ya see!

And God doesn't change to be FOR something and then AGAINST it. God ONLY changes to be FOR something and THEN against it! don't ya see?
Of course, unless God was AGAINST it BEFORE God was FOR it, don't ya see!

The Bible isn't to be figured out! Don't do ANYTHING like that! Just let the Church and its representatives, like saintmichaeldefendthem, TELL you what it says, and then the Church WON'T be MERCIFUL and and WON't KILL you! Wait! or WILL it be MERCIFUL AND Kill you? Well, whichever, God is mysterious and knowing it is impossible until you know the Author, on a PERSONAL basis! An opportunity which the Death Penalty GIVES you!

Don't ya SEE!!!?

 

I don't want to hijack the thread, but penal reform is needed, and actually should be the focus of those entrusted to govern societies to start sorting it out correctly.

I certainly don't deny miscarriages of justice have happened, from misdemeanors to capital punishment. Perfection is impossible in society, no matter how well structured or well intentioned.

 

That's a big complaint, cited often, that the death penalty is applied unevenly. But where some see chaos I see the best system available for deciding who lives and who dies. I think injustices would abound if the death penalty were applied in a perfunctory manner, one size fits all. Instead we have a system where 12 jurors must be convinced that a convicted person deserves to die, and their decisions are taylored to the individual circumstances of each case. So somebody who became jealous and killed a girlfriend on impulse is treated differently than somebody who kidnapped a child, raped and then murdered that child. The most heinous offenses rise to the top of consideration for death and when death is prescribed...I'd say it's truly merited.

 

More like the decisions are tailored to the individual's circumstances of WEALTH to buy an extravagant legal defense to even make to a potentially fair trial.

 

Mmmhmm. Connie is into his lawyers for $40 million...and he is going to prison again.

 

And then there's OJ Simpson. Somehow justice always gets served eventually even if the justice system can be bought.