The Ten Commandments and God

Wow, what an incredible irony produced by you once again.

Neutral:

-Claims that people are persecuting him and his faith, essentially whining about it
-In reality just simply attacks everybody that has a different opinion than him.
-Doesn't answer questions but instead goes on rants against atheists or talks about something completely off topic
-Says lying is absolutely immoral, then says that lying by a police officer undercover is moral and honorable.

 

Yep, I see, your sources from an atheist web site are all 100% accurate, the data and its source, compiled in a Christian Web site is not?

You really think you are the first atheist to make this arguement?

Are you inable to fathom why there are literally dozens upon dozens of Christian sites that detail the actual data in response to the standard drone of atheist silliness?

Agh well, you;ve just told us you will only acknowledge what atheists say, so a debate forum with multiple view points is clearly out of your league then.

Might I also suggest, as your peer knows, that you visit www.agreewitheverythingisay.com

You'll find things much easier there, and you'll get what you want. No one will bother you with pesky things like objective data and facts, and your self esteem and rational abilities will recieve the affirmation they clearly need.

 

Umm ... hmm this form the guy that thinks Christians made up hell to taunt HIM personally!

This from a guy who wants to travel through tim eto lie to Nazis to prove a point!

This from a guy who cannot figure out that an undersciver cop is not representing himself!

This from a guy who acknowledges that he isn;t even reading responses (but can apparently see pictures!) Yeah for illiterate atheists!

This from a guy who things standards are easy but cannot come up with any of his own - because then he might be held to them!

THis from a guy who is deliberately misquoting people's holy book, but things people tto tell him to stop or at least acknowledge the accurate view are whining and complaining just to get his goat!

In other words, more of this:



It samazing, every single atheist that has their precious ego driven religion challenged is reduced to antic like this.

Totally and completely unable to offer up even a SINGLE insightful comment on the ten commandments - and it isn't EVER their fault.

 

WOW

When have I EVER said this? I don't believe that Christians made up Hell to taunt me. Of course, I expect you to continue to say this made up argument either way.

Honestly, if you can't appreciate the point of hypotheticals than I don't really give a (*)(*)(*)(*).

Is not representing himself? Oh, so he BECOMES a different person so therefore he isn't lying? What a great argument.

Yes, because not reading the same rants over and over again makes me an illiterate. Another personal attack.

I could, I just don't expect people to consider them absolute moral laws.

WHAT QUOTE HAVE I MISQUOTED?

Some of the Ten Commandments are respectable and I don't mind admitting that. Wow, I just completely made your statement false.

 

Really? And what was the intent of asking about permenant punishment?

That's funny, the one offered to to demonstrate our intent are soundly rejected, but we have to examine absurd ones so can find an each rather than a rule?

Really?

Yeah, because most people don't call undercover cops liars, we know what they are doing and why. So do you. So does God.

But heh, if your moral code requires them to be called liars, knock yourself out stud.

But never you? Right.

Or, you just don't want to spell them out, because then you would have to be held to them.

So, you can lie then? And when the time travelling Nazis find out you lied to them and bust down your door ... ohhh, sorry.

You can steal right, I mean you have to steal food when you are hungry - there are no charities out there or anything!

And we'll see the next.

WHAT QUOTE HAVE I MISQUOTED?

Slavery.

THAT is clearly what the ten commandments, even though they are spelled out for you, say, correct?

And do you understand the difference between taking time to DELIBERATELY do something else and taking a ... break?

Nope, because we are looking for any excuse to deny - but when someone points this out, we are all just big meanines - not you though, never you!

No, you crapped on every one of them making them valueless, and now, when confronted with a rebuttal will grudgingly acknoweldge that some ... and I guess we'll have to guess which ones ... make sense.

Appatrently, it isn;t lying or stealing or treating your neighbor or the Sabbatth as you wish to be treated ... so, what's that leave us with?

Must be adultry.

 

When did I ask anything about permanent punishment? Point that out to me.

It really isn't that absurd considering it was an example based on very real historical events. I could have just asked you if you would lie to somebody that came to your home looking to kill somebody else in your home, but instead I used a real historical example.

But what they are doing IS lying, that is a part of their job. Even if it IS a part of their job, it is misrepresenting the truth which is the very definition of lying. So is lying absolutely morally wrong or are there contexts where it is acceptable? Obviously you have stated both.

Not really, the only things I've called you out on are pretty accurate representations of how you have been acting.

Yep, that's it. YOU CAUGHT ME OH NO.

WHAT QUOTE?

THAT IS NOT EVEN A PART OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. HAVE YOU EVEN READ THEM?

 

Um wow, not only are you incapable of constructing an argument. You also can't read. This is because I stated that our sites (One being written by an atheist and the other a religous site) put us at a tie. Not once did I say the page I sited was for sure 100% accurate. I even asked you to refute it and you posted something from a site that is vulnerable to a bias (on the other side) that you originally criticized me for. You sir, are the only one here who hears only what you want.

I find it amazing that I even need to explain this to you.

 

Hell. Go ahead and explain what your opinion is. Its easy to deny, now spell it out for all of us in the plain English you wat us all to use. Go ahead.

Yep, and then I gave you a perfectly good alternative that was not a lie, and then, as atheists do, you changed the context to a Nazi kicking down your door - at which point they aren't asking questions, because they already know there are Jews in the house. You then dropped it, but now you want to resurrect this time travlling example?

OK, the Nazis are ALREADY there and they ALREADY know the Jews are there. So you can either be silent or you can lie to them - that is NOW your historical example.

When that didn't work, you want to call undercover agents liars. No one else would or does, but you will just to find a exception to an absolute rule. So, we are changing common prceptions of things in order to find an exception - and you cannot figure out what is wrong with that? Hoe the very attempt itself violates the commandment?

Well, in the event that you are a time travelling, under cover agent, hiding Jews in some Nazi occupied country, and they knock on your door, you can still lie to them - and it will still be wrong.

No, the TRUTH is that they are policemen. They are pretending to be criminals to coax them out of the shadows, at which point ... they tell the truth, "I am a policeman, and you are now screwed."

Its only a lie if the never reveal that they are a cop and continue the drug deals etc. But then such conduct is itself a crime is it not?

Again, if you want to ignore the practical nature of law enforcement to call someone doing something hnorable and necessary a liar - for the sake of your own ego - then do so.

Lying is STILL always bad. So, BTW, is deliberately ignoring parts of context like the fact he is a policeman, and a policeman who spells that out at the appropriate point.

So, BTW, in your example, a parent you pretends to be Santa Clause is ALSO a liar. So are actors. So are Soldiers, sinec we are just guys with names, but we put on a uniform and do things we would never do outside a uniform.

And we see that the standard you apply is simply and utterly without merit. And God beat you to that conclusion thousands of years ago.

Same in revesre.

[/QUOTE]

Apparently one of us is not reading at all. We are not going to change the ten commandments, which have been around for thousands of years to some alternate reality so you can then justify rape, slavery, and murder in Christianity.

Do you see how that just MIGHT be a little dishonest?

Do you see why people get upset when you simply change the standard, and do so for pointedly assinine and insulting reasons?

Is there some reason that atheists would go out of their way to find an aletrnate reading of the ten commandments to then call Christians murdere, rapists, and slave holders? Yep, and there is nothing honest about such antics.

So, if atheists just ignore the standard ... well, now you see how not following the commandments, bearing false witness against your neighbor (because clearly we all support slavery, murder, and rape) just might lead to bad things?

Well, once again, God beat you to the punch a couple of thousand years ago.

But then, that is why we are here, to learn and see the truth of his wisdom - and you provide excellent examples of what happens when you LITERALLY ignore them or otherwise obfuscate them - well, you begin to see rapists everywhere

 

Oh, well, that is an arguement - you can't read in a forum that requires literacy

I wonder if "O" read that, he seem right peeved when people get insulting.

So lets demonstrate for atheists how this works:

Thesis: Despite teh rants and whines, atheists actually make up a larger percentage of the prison population then they do in the general population.

Supporting evidence:

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

As you can see, the 'religious' make up of prison equate to 83% of the population. The remaining 17% are called non-religious. Guess what that makes them? Not religious. But atheists don't want to count them?

Its interesting, because on sites like this, they do:

http://www.atheists.org/politics

As we can see there, atheist groups like to put themselves at around 25 million Americans. Unfortunately, such figures include people who identify themselves as AGNOSTIC or not religious.

http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf

So, for purposes of talking about how great they are, agnostics are atheists. When in prison, agnostics are religious? Nice.

And the same pattern repeats in other countries:

http://thoughtfulfaith.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/atheists-in-prison/

We pretty much see this pattern everywhere, but the reaity of the numbers is that atheists (when we include agnostics) make up 12% of the general population but 17% of the prison population in the US.

Those are the numbers.

Rebuttal of common argiements: Again, as we see, atheist who make this case do so by deliberately shifting standards of accountability and the definitions of atheism, the common definition of atheism - belief in no God - clearly includes those that atheists do not wish to include ... in this specific instance but will happily expand that definition to include Buddhism is it makes them look good.

Such antics are indicative of a highly emotional state is which facts are deliberately disgarded into order to make a derisive comparison of faith groups. Additionally, and further revealing the emotional nature of the claim, when the reality of the numbers are presented that indicate the opposite of the original claim, atheist, as we see above, become confrontational and hostile.

Conclusion: As we can see, the numbers simply do not support the emotional claims of atheists on prison population, such claims are emotive in nature and simply at odds with the fact and rely almost exlcusively on the non-standarad application of atheism in order to make what is clearly a spurious claim. Thus, we can ony conclude that atheist claims about prison population are emotional trite.

That, ladies and gentlement is how logic works.

It stands in sharp and penetrating comparison to, "Well, YOU can't read."

 

Another interesting point about the faith of atheism:

It interesting that atheists OUTSIDE prison are only too happy to declare themselves atheists and superior. Then they land in prison, and suddenly ... well, they start hoping there is a God.

Why else would the percentage of declared atheists and agnostics in the general population skew so radically to the agnostic side of the fence in prison?

 

Please post a link to your statistics and evidence for the above assertion. I can't find any statistics about agnosticism in prison, nor can I find any statistics on atheist conversions. On the latter, I can only find a handful of one-off stories about individuals who converted in prison.

 

Its in the post right before the one your responded to. Pease read up.

Do not ask other posters to repeatedly post EXACTLY what you ask for because you are too lazy to read it.

Its the one with all the links that you clearly did not read, BTW.

 

Sorry, those links don't say what you seem to have claimed in your post that I quoted. I didn't see any mention of actual conversions from atheism to any other spiritual stance. Furthermore, nonreligious and agnostic aren't synonymous. An agnostics may or may not be religious, and a religious person may or may not be agnostic. So do you have any actual statistics about atheism => theism conversions in prison, or agnostics in prison?

 

What do you mean explain what my opinion is? I don't believe Hell exists and I think like everything else in the Bible, it was included for a purpose. A place of punishment needs to be invented to convince followers that laws should be followed or else hell happens. Also, I think it makes some people feel content "knowing" that "evil" people are being punished for their "crimes".

Never was part of the hypothetical, liar.

I don't care if you don't call their work "lying", but it still is. They are misrepresenting who they are to achieve the goal of infiltration. Honestly, I don't see why you're arguing against this. Yes, I agree it IS honorable to lie in this situation so as to enact justice, I don't know why you can't just agree to that as well.

Yes, so they lie until they gather enough evidence to arrest them. Does not mean that they aren't lying.

No, it is not. Cops are allowed to tell people they are not cops and are allowed to make drug deals as well as use drugs while undercover. So, do you believe it isn't a lie to tell somebody something false if I tell them the truth at a future point?

Lying is STILL always bad. So, BTW, is deliberately ignoring parts of context like the fact he is a policeman, and a policeman who spells that out at the appropriate point.

Yes, I would call these people liars as well because what they are doing is technically lying. Would I call these people immoral for doing so? Absolutely not.

I don't have to justify rape, slavery, and murder, YOU do because God commands these things in the Bible.

Slavery-
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20-21

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Sexual Slavery

"And if a man sells his daughter to be a female servant, she shall not go out as the male servants do. If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights. And if he does not do these three for her, then she shall go out free, without paying money. Exodus 21:7-11
Do you see how that just MIGHT be a little dishonest?

Murder/Slavery/Rape

But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14 again

 

OK, you explain why the general population claims a higher degree of atheism than agnosticism - and then, once locked up, suddenly less than a single percentage is officially atheist.

Just like, when atheists misbehave on this forum, well, they aren't atheists at ALL!

Liek I said, its pretty easy to sit back an deny, deny, deny - harder to actually come up with a hypotheisis and test it - but then, as we see with atheist hypothesi involving their faith and hail - they are held in the absolute definance of fact - if it makes atheism look bad, it CANNOT be true ... any olf lame ass excuse will do.

 

Oh look ANOTHER atheist who fails to read previous addressed points and then posts dueteronomy rather than the ten commandments and studiously avoids the New Testament entirely.

Previous point, the OT is filled with Jews ... getting it wrong. That is why Jews today in THIS DAY AND AGE, and without benefit of the NEw Testament, do NOT follow the OT laws, or at least their punishments.

Why do you think that is? Why do you, in defiance of repeated correction (and every other (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) bag atheist who quotes the exact same text), insist that GOD commands us to do these things in the day and age? Why - take a look right here:

http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...d-does-has-done-good-perfect.html#post4843767

Additionally, Jesus tells us that he comes to affirm the law, the ten commandments, and what does he do when confronted by (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)rs?

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11 “No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” (John 8:3-11)

How is THAT possible is what you say is true about us? It isn't, is it?

Now why is it that the atheist web site you ripped off those quotes from simply leaves John out of it? Could it be because a couple of half retarded atheists with a chip on their shoulder and a bone to pick went into the Bible and deliberately lifted thing out of context and ignored everything else? THen placed it on a web site, so they could further spread this message of intolerance and hatred? Hoping that sheeple everywhere would just take it and not bother to check and see whether is was accurate or not?

Not stop for a second and wonder how it is a doctrine of hatred can preach that the majority of the people around you, in open defiance of reality, are rapists and murderers?

Why is it that atheists as we now see in TWO simultaneous threads, will make the EXACT same claims and then avoid studious any actual discussion of period warfare?

Or did you stumble across this chapter reading the Bible - which of course never extends to the New Testament - like every other atheist supposedly did - but remains unaware of New Testament entirely?

No brother, you have been indoctrinated and in a faith of inteolerance, and this is what atheists offer up as wisdom in lieu of the wisdom of the ten commandments.

Don't worry about you, everyone else is a rapist! Wise words indeed.

 

Now lets address the serial victimization of our hero here:

So, when you tell Nazis KNOCKING on your door, that is specific context in which, "Heh, guys I understand you have your duty, but I really just want to be left alone with my family - good luck in your search gents."

That would apparently be MUCH riskier than saying, "Well, there are ne Jews here!"

Because Nazi's being stupid morons will ONLY come back if you say the first, but not the later.

And by telling the truth, you have IMMEDIATELY taken the risk of having your home invaded - but not by lying, I mean there is no way a neighbor would rat you out if you first LIED to the Nazis, phbt! stupid Christians!

And of course, when you point out that the decision to harbor Jews in this scenario is the point at which you assume risk, well, the lying atheist is automatically assuming LESS risk than a Christian who tells the truth without exposing what he is doing?

And when you point out the absurdity of this escalation, they are now INVADING and INTRUDING into your home, well, kicking in the door, which is what they do when they find out you have Jews hidden, is an obvious lie?

I do love how atheists put up these time travelling escaped of absurdity that they will never face, and when someone applies half a brain to their hypothetical, well, now everyone is liar?

More wisdom from atheism - if you find a hole in my logic, its because you are a liar!

 

One explanation could be that a smaller percentage of atheists commit crimes compared to agnostics and the general population, or that they're less often convicted. Another is that the percentage of atheists in the general population is not accurate.

I don't know what you're talking about here. I've never seen someone claim to be an atheist, then "misbehave on this forum," and then suddenly claim to not be an atheist.

This part makes no sense at all.

 

And notice you have no data.

Given that the claim that atheists commit less crimes in general that religous people, when the data shows the opposite - that would tend to caste aspersions on such a claim, as if the goal were merely to avoid any fault with atheism.

In effect, whereas teh previos claim was that atheists are better than Christians - now it is you are better than the non-religious? Which is exactly what you are, correct?

Additionally, what is the point of giving you evidence if you will simply dismiss that which does not confrom to your notions - as it just could be inaccurate?

Well, we call that a game of obstinancy.

Well, hang around a bit then.

Well, you are supposedly smarter than I am, and I figured it out, so I am sure you will to if you put some effort in to it.

 

We're working off the same data. Notice you didn't have any actual data about conversions or agnosticism in prison.

I didn't make that claim. I proposed it as a possible explanation for the statistics. I also said atheists may simply not be convicted as often, implying that they could well commit as many crimes.

I didn't make either of those claims. Why do you quote me and then argue against things I never said?

I had no problem with your evidence. It conforms just fine to my notions. It's your conclusions that are problematic. The evidence was not even close to definitive as far as your claims were concerned. That's why I was able to give two other possibilities that could be supported by the evidence.

I've been here a long time and haven't seen it. I won't hold my breath.

Thanks! I can't decipher your word salad, though.

 

Oh, and yu asked for it the first time, but when someone does the same to you ... now its a problem?

Point proven.

It stil doesn't free you from having to actually look at something, particularly when you are making a spectacula claim like: agnostics get arrested and jailed FAR more often than atheists.

Its far more likely that people in jail simply do not identify themselves as atheists. You run around saying things like this in prison:

"Religion
In the history of the world, nothing has been the catalyst of more grief, hatred, war, and crime than religion. Religion allows a person to hate, kill, torture, or steal, while allowing him to recuse himself of all blame. Religion causes people to break the laws of ethics and morality in the name of a god."

http://www.atheists.org/religion

#1 - you don't think that having run around for years espousing crap like that you'd still be eager to lecture your fellow inmates about how their belief system got them in jail ... but not you?

#2 - If you kept it up, your'd be likely to find that someone would force you to drop your soap on purpose in prison.

What do you think a possible explanation is?

Debate requires someone to actually attempt debate, rather than continuous dodges Burz. If you aren't going to back up your claims, then, just like I CLAIMED, all your are doing is wild speculating - anything to keep atheism better than everyone else.

We call that arrogance, not debate.

At some point, a few of you will be OK with the fact that being atheist means you are still human - just like everyone else.

Another victim.

If you think you are misquoted, then correct it.

Yeah, you DO have a problem with the evidence. The evidence as prsented idicate that one of the most common bits of propoganda levelled by atheists is a lie. There is nothing wrong with that evidence. You do have a problem with that don;t you.

And that is why, when people start looking for explanations for this, you jump from blaming Christians (which was a lie) to blaming agnostics (which is absrud). Its the same faulty line of logic.

And what it really boils down to in both cases, is an emotional desire to be better.

There is a lot you haven't seen. But I guess when other people say something its a lie until YOU see it, and won;t bother looking for it.

Get that a lot with atheists.

Agh, then maybe you aren't as smart as you think. try again. You only fail when you quit. Sorrta like trying to find God ... well, you actually have to start.