There is no hope for Islam.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Onward James, Nov 12, 2011.

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  1. Nosferax

    Nosferax Banned

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    To be fair the OT is included in the bible as a reference to what was known before the advent of Jesus Christ. Christian, especially Catholics, follow the New Testament. Even in school, when I was young and there was still religion classes, we were taught what we called "Le petit cathechisme" (the small cathechism), which was mostly the life of Jesus, the apostle, mary and a very fast glossed over, dumb down, story of noah and moses for reference.

    It was only when I was 14 that I got my hand on the Bible and learned about the Old Testament.

    As for the subject of apostasy... Both Islam and Judaism have some barbaric and kind of retarded view concerning religious belief. It is a well known fact that muslim who decide to convert to another religion, especially in the more integrist country, face persecution and even death if caught. On the other hand, a couple of years ago, near 2002, I inquired about what would be required for me to convert to Judaism. Most of the Rabbi that answered my inquiry told me that I would have to minimize the contact with my non-jewish family, and that I wouldn't even be able to go to my parent funeral, when they died, since they were considered impure or undeserving of respect before god.

    But in christianity, there is no such thing as apostasy. Even excommunication is now an extraordinary mesure and is reserved mostly to member of the clergy who defies the church authority openly. Forgiveness for the sinners and even understanding of the non-believer is a paramount virtue in christianity. Even christ forgave those who crucified him.
     
  2. Fatihah

    Fatihah Banned

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    Response: Which is debunked by post 373.
     
  3. Fatihah

    Fatihah Banned

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    Response: Verse 8:12 and 47:4 can not possibly sound like an offensive attack because no where in the entire verse are muslims told to attack first. In fact, there is no verse in the qur'an which says so. Verse 8:12 refers to the battle between muslims and non-muslims in which the muslims were attacked first. Thus the muslims fought back in defense, and were helped in their defense with angels sent by Allah, striking off their heads and fingertips. Verse 47:4 refers to battling non-muslims who attack muslims.. Thus the verse is self-defense, further proven by the fact that verse 61 of the same chapter says that muslims are not to fight those who incline to peace and verse 9:13 says that it was the non-muslims who attacked first. Thus the very context clearly demonstrates self-defense.

    Verse 33:50 mentions nothing of women as war booty, thus your point is pointless, and proves nothing. The qur'an speaks of marriage to women, thus the verse refers to marriage. So reading it any other way is a result of one's perverted ideology, not islam.

    As for Gabriel, Allah delivers a message as He pleases. Not to please you.

    So again we see from the Qur'an and Sunnah itself that islam is a peaceful and just religion, while it is the weal attempts by non-muslims to selectively pick verses from the text to prove otherwise, but fail miserably doing so.
     
  4. OJLeb

    OJLeb New Member

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    What planet are you living on? Islam is growing in North America, and that is not because it is not accepted ;) You still have yet to show anything I say is whitewashed or ludicrous. You just say they are, without even providing examples. Not good enough. And again you mentioned this "everyone"... Who or where is all these people that I am pissing off.


    Not at all. Islam is accepted in Canada. We are free to practice our faith. That is proof that it is accepted. There are some people, such as yourself, you hate us. However you are insignificant to society. Sorry habibi but it's true. And as much as you dream about the reform of Islam, no human being can ever reform the Word of God. Islam is a reformed version of Christianity and Judaism, reformed by Allah SWT because these two faiths were reformed by man. We are not going to make the same mistake.

    None of those groups are Islamic, represent Islam, or benefit Islam. You already know my opinion on Jasser. No proud Muslim would ever advocate reforming Islam. The words "beat them" are not in the Quran Surah 4:34. The word "idribuhanna" is in the Quran, and it has many different meanings. Which includes separate, and beat. But even if it did say beat, the Prophet Muhammad SAW made it clear that all a beating was to be was a light tap with a small stick or miswak. There are no bad Surahs, bad parts, or anything bad in or about the Quran. It is the word of God and therefore perfect. You seem to interpret it the same as the fundamentalist Muslims, and you are all wrong believing Islam is a religion that advocates killing innocent people and violence. Read the Quran, not just one or two verses Robert Spencer mentions on Jihad Watch, and you will see this...

    سلام
     
  5. cooky

    cooky New Member

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    Before we fault the reasons others use to sanction violence perhaps we should contemplate The reasons we use to sanction violence. Aint nobody right if everybody is wrong
     
  6. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    You are making the preposterous statement here that the Christians' Bible is comparable (on any level) to the vile evil that the Koran is replete with ? You are either very ignorant of these 2 texts, or you are just full of it.

    I have asked a question of many Islamapologists who come into a discussion about Islam, and then change the subject over to Christianity, and then start saying that Christians have very violent books. That question is > would you please cite the passages in the Christian books that are very violent ? Then they get very quiet. The challenge is now yours.
     
  7. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    If by "we" you mean the USA, right now, the violence we are engaged in, in Afghanistan is for self-defense. It may soon be in Libya also. Again self-defense.
     
  8. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    I was raised as a Catholic, and received religious training in a Catholic school for 10 years. That's how. Also by going to church, every Sunday and listening to sermons from priests. Did you think reading the bible is the only way to learn about Christ ? Information about him is everywhere. Especially around Christmas and Easter.

    HA HA HA. I should read the Koran, huh ? HA HA. I read it probably before your parents were born.

    As I said before, I have forgotten the Arabic I used to know. When I read the Koran in Arabic, that was 50 years ago. I also used to know French and Spanish too. I have forgotten almost all of them too. As we say in English > "If you don't use it, you lose it". The only non-English language I retain (at least a little) is Spanish. I learned that from my grandparents who were from Belize (Central America). Hablo espanol desde mil novicientos cinquenta y nueve. Pero, cuando nosotros no usamos el espanol, muy mucho, aqui en Los Estados Unidos, entonces olvidamos muchas palabras.
     
  9. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    You changed the subject from what I was talking about. Maybe you need to learn how to read English. You seem to be having trouble comprehending what people are saying, unless you're one of those guys who makes believe they're saying something different from what they are (Straw man) , and then you attack them for that. That's the quickest way to lose credibility in this forum, although at this point, I can assure you, you don't have any to lose. LOL.
    If you had any at one point, it's long gone now.
     
  10. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    HA HA HA. Deepest denial or baldfaced LIES I've ever seen. Simply laughable.
     
  11. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    I said "jihadists". You said "every practicing Muslim in the world" ? So are you saying that every practicing Muslim in the world is a "jihadist" ?
     
  12. Mehmet

    Mehmet New Member

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    still not getting it.
    so what you are saying is:
    bible is not the main source of christianity?
    the word of God?
    if it is, then why are you skipping?
    don't christians think that it is more important to see
    what God has to say?

    did you read it in 1937? :)

    in my opinion, give it another read.
    after all these years, you must have gained some experience.
    thus, the perception must have changed too.

    i do speak french too, since i was 13;
    not spanish, although i stay a bit in mexico.
    i still remember some easy phrases like "de donde eres tu?"

    back to subject; i will switch the question:
    don't you remember how the language of the qur'an
    was rhythmic, beuatiful and powerful?
    nothing like english translation?
     
  13. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    Who (other than your Islamapologist collegues here) is NOT saying you are a fool ? LOL.

    I did not insult Jesus, and you know it.

    As far as insulting Mohammed, no one insults Mohammed. Regarding him, they just observe and report.

    Here's 2 of those reports :

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197
     
  14. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    They also are unaware of all the Islamization going on in western countries. I have presented them with a Quiz on the subject. The highest grade any of then has ever score is 5% (most got Zero). I would guess that their programmers have deeply instilled in them a habit of avoiding all protectionist literature, and attacking it as invalid. They pull off a pretty good trick > being able to invalidate the protectionists' books without ever reading a single page of them.
     
  15. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Was_Muhammad_a_Pedophile?
     
  16. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    FALSE ! The Koran is loaded with commands to Muslims to engage in war and killing of peaceful non-Muslims who have not made any threat against anyone.

    One example is sura 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous." (Quran 9:123, "Repentance," Dawood, p. 206)

    Another is the infamous Verse of the Sword Sura 9:5 - "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them." (Quran 9:5; "Repentance," Dawood, p. 186)
     
  17. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias New Member

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    Absolutely -

    Human Sacrifice

    • At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

      He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)

    Rules of War

    • "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

    • As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
      (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

    Ludicrous Rape Law

    • If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
    (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

    Slavery

    • However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

    • When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
     
  18. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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  19. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    1. What "facts" are you referring to ?

    2. What does that mean ? My parents have been deceased for years, not that it's any of your business.
     
  20. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    Counterterrorism officials the world over, all report the same motives from terroists that they interrogate > the Koran.
     
  21. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    Both posts are mine....and I don't go around debunking my own posts. You are the only one who does that (at least you think you do) - LOL.
     
  22. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    This post (380) is entirely refuted by the very post of mine (372) it was intended to refute. So here is the rebuttal :

    You apparently want Islam to be accepted in North America. It's not going to be. And it's SURE not gong to be accepted the way you are foolishly going about it. All this pretending you're doing, all these ludicrous statements you're making, all these mindless word games, only get everyone more pissed off at you and all your Islamist pals, all the more.
    You are like someone who wants to go East, and you're driving West at 100 miles per hour. Islam could be accepted in America, in Canada, and in Europe IF it was reformed a lot. But you and your foolish colleagues here all do the opposite. Instead of trying to reform Islam, you pretend it's OK as it is, and try to get people to accept it like it is. LOL. Do you know how ridiculous that is ?
    NOBODY is going to accept this horrible ideology the way it is. You make the changes. You get with IslamWatch, or if you want to remain Muslim, you get with Zuddhi Jasser and American-Islamic Forum for Democracy, and you work to reform Islam. CHANGE THE KORAN. Remove the words "beat them" from sura 4:34. Fix the other bad suras. THEN you will begin to have acceptance. Until that happens, you are beating a dead horse and wasting you're time, and accomplishing only one thing. Looking foolish.
     
  23. Mehmet

    Mehmet New Member

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  24. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias New Member

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    No, they don't. That's just a flat out lie. Give me some examples of counter-terrorism officials that have reported this.

    I can provide a counter example off the top of my head - Michael Scheur, ex-CIA operative, ex-Chief of the Bin Laden Issue Station (aka "Alec Station"), and ex-Special Advisor to the Chief of the bin Laden unit.

    Another example:

    During the 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, Vice Chair of the Commission, asked the agents "What have you found out about why these men did what they did? What motivated them to do it?"

    The answer by FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald was, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the US.
     
  25. Fatihah

    Fatihah Banned

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    Response: Wrong. Neither verse that you quoted tells muslims to make war...FIRST. Thus your own words once again debunk yourself. The verses relate to self-defense, proven from verse 9:13 which clearly states that the non-muslims attacked first and verse 8:61 clearly states that muslims are ordered not to fight those who incline to peace. Thus muslims are ordered to fight in defense, proving that islam is a peaceful and just religion. DEBUNKED.

    Meanwhile, we see your weak and foolish attempts to make a peaceful way of life appear to be the opposite, thus all you've done is demonstrate that it is your perverted ideology that's violent, not islam. Thanks again for clarifying how violent and demeaning your own ideology is.
     
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