This is a list of things I, as a rational human, cannot accept from the bible... moreover am bewildered other rational humans do. Feel free to add to the list, but please quote text. I am using the KJV. I am starting with creatures. Isaiah 13 21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. Numbers 21 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Jeremiah 8 17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD. Isaiah 34 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Malachi 1 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Isaiah 35 7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. 1 Samuel 17 4 And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. Job 40 15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox. 16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. 17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. 19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him. 20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play. 21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens. 22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about. 23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. 24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares. Job 41 1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? Psalm 74 14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Psalm 104 26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein. Isaiah 27 1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Cherubim (Tetramorphs)... Ezekiel 1 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Apollyon the Destroyer... and the locust scorpion man things with womens hair and lions teeth. Revelation 9 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Jonah 1 17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Seraphim Isaiah 6 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Ophanim Ezekiel 1 15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. 18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. 19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. Witches and wizards. 1 Samuel 28 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? Zombies. Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Zecharia 14:12 And the Lord will send a plague on all the nations that fought against Jerusalem. Their people will become like walking corpses, their flesh rotting away. Their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
Does the term plagurism mean anything? Which source did you pull this off of, and what is the debate?
Nothing plagiarized. It is a list of things I am actively making. Then I find little images with google image. The debate, which I was not specific about I guess, is how can you, as a rational person accept these things? I began this line of thought in the Hawking thread about him calling the bible "fairy tales" and people being offended at that. This was begun supporting that assessment... however the reason I created the thread, as stated, is because I do not understand how a rational person accepts this. Next I will have magic items... I am sort of approaching it like an AD&D role playing game.
Items Flaming multidimensional sword of the Cherub who guards the entrance to the garden of Eden. Genesis 3 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Archangel Michael's flaming sword. Now... I can find no reference to any such nonsense in the bible... but Micheal is typically pictured with a flaming sword. So we will say that one doesn't count. Goliath's spear. About as big around as the fat end of a bat, with a 15lb head. 1 Samuel 17 7 And the staff of his spear was like a weaver's beam; and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron: and one bearing a shield went before him. Snake Staffs. Evidently common magic, but Aaron's was most magic. Exodus 7 10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
Unicorns are not metaphorical in that text. Some of the 9 references to them could be. Isaiah 34 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. 15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate. 16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. I am willing to hear your interpretations of these "metaphors"... but I we are going to have to go one by one. There are a lot. You can start wherever you like.
#1 - this is the actual verse from Isiah 34:9 "Thorns will overrun her citadels, nettles and brambles her strongholds. She will become a haunt for jackals, a home for owls." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+34&version=NIV Here it is the in King James version. The context of Isiah 34, as spelled out in the Chapter head is judgement against nations. In context, the word unicorn makes no sense. Which you would know if you were actually rseraching these rather than just pulling them off an atheist web site. the usurpataion of word to induce irrationality is itself irrationality. #2 - Do you understand yet why I know you are plagurizing? Why I know you are not simply paging through the Bible to find this stuff? #3 - All you are doing is what all atheists do. You parse the Bible (or someone else's) in single verse texts, ignore context entirely, and when your 'verses' are placed in context, yoru interpretations look like rambling nonesense. Yet you should be treated as experts? Rather than charlatans? #4 - You do understand that you share a common theme with Creationists in that you insist on applying a literal interpretation - well, to even deliberately mnisquoted verses. Once again, why do atheists ask each other about our faith rather than actual Christians? Or does the reality of having derisive opinion confront you terrify you to the point that you must tell us how screwed up we are? Sounds like a far bigger problem for atheism than those of us who have actually read the book and understand the concept of a parable and an analogy - however stupid we may be.
Ehud's dagger. Judges 3 16 But Ehud made him a dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his raiment upon his right thigh. 17 And he brought the present unto Eglon king of Moab: and Eglon was a very fat man. 18 And when he had made an end to offer the present, he sent away the people that bare the present. 19 But he himself turned again from the quarries that were by Gilgal, and said, I have a secret errand unto thee, O king: who said, Keep silence. And all that stood by him went out from him. 20 And Ehud came unto him; and he was sitting in a summer parlour, which he had for himself alone. And Ehud said, I have a message from God unto thee. And he arose out of his seat. 21 And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly: 22 And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out. Clearly high critical damage. Manna. This is angel food. One pot fed the Israelites for 40 years. Very useful for long quests. Psalm 78 24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. 25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full. Exodus 16 14 And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground. 15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat. 33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omer full of manna therein, and lay it up before the LORD, to be kept for your generations. 34 As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept. 35 And the children of Israel did eat manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited; they did eat manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.
It is Isaiah. If you would like to switch bibles that is fine. In the interest of not one tittle, not one jot, you are going to have to stick with whatever you choose. Choose wisely. Then your argument is that the bible is not infallible. We can get back to that. You can continue to call me a liar if you like. If that makes you feel better. If that helps you frame me as the bad guy. All you have to do is copy the contents of a post into google and you will return no results. You can also look up each thing in google images, and switch to medium size, and you will find almost all of my images from the first page. I have read the bible more than most people, and I am searching bible gateway for things I remember. As a younger man I had a real enthusiasm for mythical creatures and weapons. I have come across some websites that have creatures I didn't remember, and, again, I look up all of the passages in the bible. I never said I was an expert. I am absolutely fine with context. Where I felt the context was relevant I have put large chunks just for that purpose. I am also not an Atheist, but i have a lot of issues with the bible. The Koran too... did you know they believe in djinn (genies)? efreet, fire elementals... all sorts of great stuff there. Jews? They got them some Golems... and Griffons... phoenix... I have not misquoted a single (*)(*)(*)(*)ing thing. I will provide urls from here on out. I stated in the first sentence of this post I was using the KJV. I don't much care who answers. I think your frustration comes from a compiled list of problems that you are going to have to do a LOT of work on, and may not ever put together cohesively. http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unicorn&qs_version=KJV Start there... or switch bibles.
I've noticed Christians often pick and choose what are "metaphors" and what is to be accepted as fact.
And which version are you using, because I just quoted the two of the more common versions. That is called an excuse. I guess you AD&D character is not a Paladin. Did you read what I wrote? Or do you insist on taking your opinion as gospel? Sctratch that, self evident answer. Do you understand why most theologicans classify your faith as self worship? I didn't call you a liar, I called you a plagurist (is English this difficult?) I have plainly asked you for teh source of teh misquoted Isiah, and recieved nothing. You clearly lifted it from an atheists web site without citation, violating moral commandments and the pagurizing rules of this forum. Yawn. Another appeal to authority. Its a fallacy. And if you read it, why did you not recognize a deliberate misquote? Why are you inable to speak of the actual context? I am glad that you play Dugeons and Dragons and seek to project that onto everyone else's faith. That is a personal problem. Then why does the text I quote from the King James Bible not agree with what you list? Now you are mind reading are you? I think my frustration comes from the lot of atheists who at best use a proximity search to claim a mentel of expertise they do not have to simply crap on others. Nice faith BTW. You still have not addressed the context of Isiah 13 at all. What a shock.
My question to you is "why is it necessary to make excuses (rationalize) or dream up justifications for these things?"
Actually you only quoted one. A verse I didn't quote. To be honest I am not sure what relevance it has to the later passages I quoted. Almost always had a Paladin or Templar. How is it an excuse? Yes... you said "The context of Isiah 34, as spelled out in the Chapter head is judgement against nations. In context, the word unicorn makes no sense. Which you would know if you were actually rseraching these rather than just pulling them off an atheist web site. the usurpataion of word to induce irrationality is itself irrationality." You said the word it uses makes no sense, I presumed you meant that it was wrong... this would be a fallacy. I don't have faith. Plagiarist, so evidently. I told you that I did not plagiarize, and you continue to insist that I have. That would make my denial an outright lie. I have not misquoted Isaiah. Please, point to what you are calling a misquote. It is all directly from the bible gateway. This would be the second time you have called me a liar. There is no magic website containing all of this material. I am creating it... actively. I did not claim authority or expertise, I said I read and have read the bible more than most. This is truth. I read Dickens a lot too, but would not call myself an expert. You are attempting to tell me that my life is a fallacy? You can seriously go (*)(*)(*)(*) yourself. Go on... find wherever it is I am lifting this from. Go ahead. THERE WAS NO MISQUOTE. Played, when I was young. I see them similarly. Why don't you? I never quoted Isaiah 34:9. You can't (*)(*)(*)(*)ing read. The 9 REFERENCES to unicorns are in the link I gave you. http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unicorn&qs_version=KJV 1 Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. 2 Numbers 24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. 3 Deuteronomy 33:17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh. 4 Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? 5 Job 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? 6 Psalm 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. 7 Psalm 29:6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn. 8 Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil. 9 Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. I find it very difficult not to call you names. Ain't exactly War and Peace. I don't have faith anymore. I do not deny intelligent design, but I have no faith. You are all over the map. I asked you to pick one so this didn't happen.
You mean the AD&D reference? Because that is what my posts looked like to me... and then it got me thinking about items. It was not a justification. It was a stream of consciousness. I am not done yet either... though this gnat is distracting me. I respect you, Incorporeal, more than anyone in the religious section probably. I am addressing the topic tongue in cheek because I honestly believe you do not believe in unicorns. I believe anyone with any brains will probably land on rhinoceroses. The point of much of this is to address the fallibility of the English versions of the bible... but I was curious to hear people rationalize unicorns. It is probably a perverse amusement.
In the emphasized text, you use the same word again... rationalize... and this time you pose a 'curiosity' as your own justification for even starting the thread. That curiosity will only lead into the recesses of the mind of different people and cause them to bring forth (manifest) in words the images they hold in their minds. If you look at my signature line, you will see, that those things in the mind are private and until those things are manifest by some act, such as writing a description of them, then remain private. But if they cause those things to manifest (in any way, shape or form ... including words), then they have committed a potential tort which must be adjusted to zero. So, my question still remains. Why would you want to make excuses or causes other people to make excuses regarding what is private to them?
Curiosity is why I do most things. I take umbrage with the use of the term excuse. This implies that I believe I have committed some offense which requires one. It is, actually, a straw man. I have nothing to excuse. People can choose to reveal or keep hidden their private things. I hold no power over anyone.
So, now we are supposed to debate your state of mind, which would of course never be an excuse, and wonder why it is in such robotic lock step with all the other derisive atheists?
The mythological creatures portrayed in the Old Testament and the New Testament speak volumes about the times and places they were written in. Many mythological beasts like the Golem, Leviathan and Zig are Jewish mythological creatures. While Satyrs, the Cockatrice, and Tetramorphs are mainly a Greek invention. I think. I may have them mixed up so correct me if I got that wrong. I think the only one that is often described as a mistranslation is the Unicorn. I've read elsewhere that the words used in Hebrew or Greek or whatever basically mean, "horned beast" or something like that. In some versions it is translated as Ox instead of Unicorn. Many of the explanations I hear from my own religious family is either A. These animals were killed in the Great Flood or B. They simply went extinct like the dodo bird and other animals. Of course there are no fossil records of these things ever existing...
You pointed me to Isiah 34:9. I actually looked it up. And, as I pointed out, repeatedly, in context, the verse makes perfect sense. Nor indeed is it even a referrence to unicorns. Notice the complete abscence of context, which you claim to be comfortable with and even knowledgeable about in any of your single sentence constructs? An obeservation, you are projecting your D&D onto everyone else's faith. You are literally looking for unicorns rather than Jesus or his message. What a shock that I routinely remind you atheists that you avoid Jesus like the plauge? No I said a specific word, unicorn, makes not sense in that context, and indeed is not even used. I presume you are having a lot of trouble with English? Sure you do, or you would be able to scientifically prove there is no God. You can't, hence you decision is one of faith. But you don;t like that, huh? Well, who cares? Facts don;t change themselves to comport themselves to our emotions - is that not the very case you are making here? Yep, just as soon as you link me to the web site you lifted them from. Because, what a shock, I can find the exact same arguementation from athtards with a simple google search - even the very same version of the Bible you have used - with explanation as to why you chose that particular version? http://www.deism.com/biblemonsters.htm Amazing that Atheists quote the exact same text in the exact same version of the Bible? Won't you say? Isiah 34:9. I quoted it for you twice. A plagurist, get it right. Are you claiming you know the Bible better than ... who exactly - right almost everyone. No, I point ot facts and fallacious arguementation - the facts point where they go- correct? What exactly are you charging Christians with in this thread? But when the behavior comes home to roost in you, well, now the behavior is wrong? Super victims gallore in atheism are their not. Because I have a brain? Because I can tell the difference between a make believe adventure game and real man named Jesus and his message? Perhaps. Well, then you are going to have to go back and decipher your gibberish. Isiah 34:9 was the first thing you directed me to referrence unicorns. And yet, when I look, lo and behold ... no unicorns anywhere in Isiah 34. Go figure. Its what happens when you blindly cut and paste from atheist web sites. I am well aware that you conducted an after the fact proximity search, now, as you also claim to have no problem addressing the context, go ahead and see if you can figure out the econtextual referrences to these things. See if you can? That sounds like an impulse control problem. And that has what to do with your magical ability to read minds? English. See above, you excuses are noted, but we will not just take your word about things. More excuses. Noted, irrelevant.
Number 14 is actually a reference to God and Goddess. The Satyr is the Horned God, Pan in this case, and the Owl is Goddess in bird form found all over these areas, Inanna for instance, and here Lilith. Horned God and Owl Goddess can be found on many ancient coins, and you can read about their Owl dances. A Temple of the Horned God Pan has been found in Israel.
