The writers were observant of the sun's rising (east) and setting (west). The two directions, unlike north and south, never meet/change. How would they know that, given the fact they never explored, or seen the world from outside the earthly plane? Unlike other observers they didn't believe in a flat earth or that it was the center of the universe, with all of it orbiting the earth. I'd say that they had a good grasp of how things orbit, without the benefit of modern tools to know if their beliefs were accurate.
How did they observe that the sun rose in the east and set in the west? Is that a serious question? The directions of north and south meet? And they change? I am having a difficult time trying to grasp what you are saying here. It really does not make any sense.
The Psalmist used the east/west direction to make the emphasized point that when God removes/forgives our sins you could travel till the end of time and never find them. The gap is infinite. The same is not true of north/south. If you're traveling north you will eventually (at the poles) change the direction you're traveling to the south and likewise will eventually switch to traveling north. The psalm only makes sense if you're aware of the earth being round, not flat (which most ancient observers thought it was). This is evidence of someone/thing familiar with the orbits telling the Psalmist about it. How would/could he possibly know?
It makes perfect sense if you don't know any of that stuff. East/West was used because it is where the sun appears to rise and set. They are in two different (and opposite directions). Being that the earth IS a sphere the gap is not infinite. The fact that they thought the gap was infinite IS an indication that they had no idea that the earth was a sphere. To them you could travel west forever and never return to where you came from. Travel far enough West (or East) and you end up back in the same spot you started in. And even if you thought the earth was a sphere that, in now way, implies knowledge that the sun does not orbit the earth. Again, just a case of a Bible believer trying to read knowledge into the text that is not there.
You're misunderstanding the verse. Traveling along a western (or eastern) line isn't about destination, it's about directions. Once you start traveling in either direction it never changes despite ending up where you first started. The same is not true about traveling north and south. If you start out traveling north you'll end up travelling south while still ending up at where you started out. There's nothing that the Psalmist could have observed to know this. His world was small, lacking the benefit of travelling around the world to confirm his observation.
How do you know he knew this? He didn't mention North or South. He used East/West because that is the path the sun, the largest object in the sky, took. To him West in one direction and East in another. That's it. That's the extent of his knowledge that is shown in that verse. Nothing there about earth being a sphere or being flat. Nothing about whether the sun orbits the earth or the earth orbits the sun. Nothing about the earth rotating. Nothing about any of the other planets or what the other lights in the sky were. There is nothing in that verse that even HINTS at what you are trying to claim. You are attempting to read things in that verse that simply do not exist.
The point I made was that the Psalmist had no direct knowledge that direction the west from the east was infinite, as opposed to the north/South direction. If he had used the n/s direction his point would be useless.
Your claim is that because he didn't use North/South that indicated he had knowledge that the earth was a sphere and that just isn't the case. He used East/West for the simple reason that those are the directions associated with the sun, the largest object in the sky. That's it. Reading any more into it is just wishful thinking on your part.
Again, it's about distance, not location. East from west indicates an infinite gap where you'll never find your sins.
And just like science said that the sun orbits the earth or that the sun is just burning ball of gas. Science does the best it can with the information available. As we learn more we have to, sometimes, change our thinking on these matters. That IS the scientific method. The fact that we sometimes get it wrong is not a reason to throw out the scientific method. It's not even a reason to throw out our current views on a particular subject. Evolution is the current best explanation for the diversity of life on earth Man Made climate change is the current best explanation for the rising temperatures. The Standard Model (aka The Big Bang Theory) is the current best explanation for the existence of our universe. Just because you don't like those explanations doesn't make them less than the best. And to actually change the scientific views on something you not only have to find places in the theory that are not explained but you also have to come up with something to replace it. A NEW "best explanation". The Bible has NEVER offered a "best explanation". It has NEVER replaced scientific theories with a better explanation. It has NEVER offered up an explanation that science later agreed with .
The Bible's purpose was never about giving details about Creation. God left that up to scientists. But as far as how to live our life, it gives sufficient details for that, whereas science doesn't for the most part.
Here is YOUR post that started this whole conversation Now, all of a sudden, you say "The Bible's purpose was never about giving details about Creation" Just, wow. What is "science"? SCIENCE: Middle English (denoting knowledge): from Old French, from Latin scientia, from scire ‘know’. The main modern sense developed in the late 18th century. Science is about the acquisition of knowledge. Most people associate it with knowledge about the physical world around us, chemistry, physics, biology, geology, etc. But the "scientific method" can be used to increase/expand our knowledge in ANY area. Observe what works, if it doesn't work then figure out why those ideas don't work and change them to encompass these new observations. This includes that area knowledge called "ethics" and "morality" or, in short, how to live our lives. The Bible has not been any more successful in those areas then it has in the areas of cosmology, astrophysics, geology or history. To follow the moral teachings of the Bible simply because they are in the Bible would the equivalent of following the teachings from the creation story to inform us on cosmology. The Bible is chock full of barbaric versions of morality. Stoning people to death for minor transgressions. Rules against consumption of shellfish and pork. The genocide of people for not sharing your religious views. Slaughtering of children in war. Just because the Bible gets it right sometimes (don't murder) is not an indication that these rules come from a higher power but more like the old saying "Even a broken clock is right twice a day"
Yea, wow indeed. I cited a verse that was about our sins being hidden and from that you think it was about science that I was using it for. Furthermore, I clearly stated that God left it up to scientists to give scientific explanations. It has. You're misunderstanding my point, again.
Why did you cite that verse? Your claim....YOUR CLAIM was the person that wrote that verse must have known the earth was a sphere before it was common scientific knowledge. Your implication was that the author got this information through some sort of divine revelation. Now that I've shown you that ISN'T the case you want to claim that the Bible is not a source of scientific knowledge. Also I thought there was a forum rule about not editing someone else's post when responding to them? Why did you cut off the part where I was showing that the Bible is not even a reliable source for rules on "how to live our lives"?
The purpose of the verse is not to disperse scientific information. I didn't change your post. I only cut out the portion I wasn't interested in responding to. Sheesh! Report me if you have a problem.
So.....because science changes as you have admitted, it takes a level of faith to believe in it as you do. If the sun suddenly has an unprecedented amount of sunflares tonight, you might want to change your thinking.....but it will be to late. You might not even have time. Your god has failed you. Mine has never changed. I have faith in Him and He is constant.
I found his apology for scientific information changing revealing. Knowing it can change only means you're living by faith that it doesn't. A theist can change their beliefs as they learn new things, but we aren't allowed the same consideration atheists give themselves with the scientific method. Bizzare.
No, it does not. I believe that science gives the best explanation with the current available information. If that information changes then science will change as necessary. Heck, that is the advantage science has over your God. As you say your God has never changed. That's a problem. The world today is not the same world that existed when these stories about your God were written. To expect the lessons from the Bible would apply to us today makes the assumption that the world has not changed and nothing could be further from the truth.
What new thing could a theist learn about their God or their religion that would change their beliefs? If you found out tomorrow that Jesus never existed would you change your beliefs or would you claim that the new information is incorrect? We all know the answer to that one.
Everything that happens in the world has happened before. That's the point. There is nothing new under the sun. Sure, you may point to technology, but all that fails in the end. Human nature is always the same. That is what the Bible is about. Human Nature Contrasted with God's faithfulness, the temporal contrasted with eternity! All is vanity! Here's a thought....why would you expect the Creator to conform to His Creation?
How would one find this out? The evidence is all around us. History, archeology, prophesy fulfilled, the nature of man, and Creation itself. What would we find out? Mockers have been trying to disprove God since the beginning. Hasn't worked. They even tried to destroy the printed Word. Couldn't do it. They've martyred millions. Faith abounds!
There are new things under the sun all the time. What are the ethics of cloning? AI? Deep Fake/CGI? Transplants? Climate Change? And that's just a start. Your Bible has nothing to say on these issues since, at the time the Bible was written, they weren't even hints of hints of hints that these were going to be issues one day. I don't expect the Creator to conform to his creation...but then again, I don't believe there was a creator. The better question is why don't you think your "creator" has to change with the times? If he is as smart as you think he is then why doesn't he adapt? Adaption is sign on intelligence.
Climate Change? It has always changed since the fall of man. God created man in His own image so he too is a creative. That explains the other things. They can be used for good as well as evil. Nothing has changed. You think drag queens are new?.... no they've been around forever. Human nature wants to confuse gender. God created them male and female. Change with the times? Why would God do that when He transcends time?
Climate has never changed as fast as it is changing now. Humans are the reason but your God never addressed the issue of human impact on the earth because the men who wrote the stories never considered it. Of course I mentioned a bunch of other stuff. Do you know what I DID NOT address? Drag Queens...but you had to insert it anyway. Ignore all the other issues I mentioned and go to right to the current RW pinata. He may transcend time but we do not. Awfully hard to give guidance to mankind when your last set of instructions are from over 2000 years ago.
