I question why you even bother participating in this thread, if you can't even respect a discussion of textual matters. In other words, it doesn't matter if it's true or not. No one, at least I'm not, is trying to convince you of a "sky daddy" existence.
It DOES matter if it is true or not. I don't see pages long discussions on the "textual matters" of the Odyssey or the novel 1984. That's because no one is claiming that these are the recounting of historical events. You want to talk about whether or not the biblical account of the death of Jesus comports with biblical prophecy when, if the whole thing is made up, it doesn't matter.
Still doesn't answer my core question - why are you participating in this thread if it's all a lie, in your opinion? Are you trying to persuade someone it's a lie?
Did it ever dawn on you that in the 1st century A.D. it was time for the naysayers to put this "myth" to rest but because of the witness and testimony of many....it just couldn't be done? And after that, the testimony and conviction of so many millions have overcome the persecution of the naysayers to this day? This is why we recognize the Odyssey, though it is a good work of fiction, as a myth. There is no conviction, there are no witnesses, and no one is interested in persecuting anyone that believes it is true. However. still today, there are factions bent on annihilating Christ and His Church in areas all over the world. It is a vain effort and will never happen. It is a given.....Jesus Christ and His Church will prevail.
No clear evidence of Baptism before John the Baptist, who was not a pagan. Regarding Easter, it was named after Ishtar, pagan Queen of Heaven. Constantine officially made Christianity the religion in Rome. Several of these Christian practices now did derive from pagan rituals. Easter changes every year as it is on the first SUNday after the full moon and after the Spring equinox. Christmas is much the same, derived from sun worship on 12-25.
Easter is not named after Ishtar. It’s named after Eostre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Easter The modern English term Easter developed from the Old English word Ēastre or Ēostre (Old English pronunciation: [ˈæːɑstre, ˈeːostre]), which itself developed prior to 899, originally referring to the name of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Ēostre.[2] There are examples of Pre-Christian religions having baptism rituals. https://www.grunge.com/471073/the-untold-truth-of-baptism/
Today, in the 21st century, with audio and video recording devices we STILL have "fake news" and disinformation. What makes you think that 2000 years ago those seeking the truth would have been able to debunk the story of Jesus?
The Odyssey is not a philosophy on how to live a person’s life and it did not become an ideology shaped over time by a human government to wield power over its population. The Odyssey, while full of fictitious events, is much like the Bible in the sense that there are locations that have been found to be real locations. It is much different since it is not a religious text. The Bible was pieced together by the same people who wielded political power at the time it was compiled, the Romans. The Odyssey remains unchanged from its original form. You seem to feel that opposition and persecution validate the story of the Bible but you forget that the Bible was compiled in a time when competing Christian ideologies were outlawed under pain of death. By your own philosophy, Non-Nicene Christians of the third century were the “true Christians” whose ideas were stamped out by governmental power, the same governmental power that compiled the books of the Bible from the many competing texts that were available at the time, just as the Quran would be composed of many stories from a similar pool of mythologies available at the time of its compilation.
They were far more localized than we are today. Word spread very fast in those areas. Jesus lived in less than a fifty mile radius. Prior to 40 A.D. there was plenty of time for His story to be quashed in that area. In fact, there was an effort for that. There were just too many witnesses that were passionate about what they saw. It was not until 70 A.D. with the destruction of Jerusalem that the Gospel of Christ was driven to other lands and spread like wildfire!
There are people who live in DC, less than 5 miles from the Capitol Building where we have hundreds of hours of the violent events on 1/6 who claim that it wasn't violent and a ton of other misinformation. The stories about Jesus were not written down until almost a century after his alleged death. It was a giant game of telephone lasting the better part of a century. The idea that the story would remain accurate as to what actually happened is a pipe dream.
I think it is a miracle the scriptures have survived and I maintain they are Divinely inspired and guarded by a Supernatural Power. I am familiar with arguments that try to deny my beliefs. I am familiar with the process of the "Canonization". I am familiar with ancient scrolls. "True Christians" exist today (though originally they were called Followers of the Way). My wife's direct ancestor was the first in Foxes Book, to be martyred for translating the scripture from Latin so it could be understood and read by the common man. It was a miracle in itself that the Bible was the first book to be mass produced after the invention of the printing press. Too many miracles to explain it all away! Incidentally, I enjoyed the Odyssey since I was a young boy.
You are not familiar with Jewish tradition. Verbal History was committed to memory and passed down for centuries. You are also not familiar with the idea that notes were taken long before they were recorded in scrolls. We have four Gospels, although recorded from different perspectives are virtually the same in Truth. I'm not going to convince you otherwise. I'm sure if all that ever existed was the Left Wing media, they would promote any idea they see as fit. The fact remains, secular Historians such as Josephus, recorded Christian events from his own perspective. You don't see martyrs laying down their lives for the untruths presented by left wing media today.
We can nip this debate in the bud and I will now explain our disconnect. There are 4000 that were baptized at the beginning of this thread because they have started a journey of faith. They believe. I believe.... I do not believe because I am Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Baptist or anything else, but I believe. You seem to believe Jesus Christ is an invention of man such as those denominations I mentioned. Due to that, I understand your position. I believe Jesus was born of a Virgin, Died on a cross, and rose on the third day. That is my frame of reference. Because I believe God did those things for me and others, I have no problem believing He, by His Spirit, wrote and preserved those things we call Scripture so I could enhance and build my relationship with Him. Our back and forth is not personal. It is our frame of references that differ. My God does not value me more than any others and I understand that!
Your belief, if you were willing to look at it honestly, is not based on any solid information. I, at one time, shared your belief. I was a devout Christian...but that is because I had never been introduced to any discussion that the things I believed did not have any facts backing it up. Once I was introduced the idea that my beliefs could be wrong I knew I owed it to myself to try and determine what beliefs were worthy and which were not. It didn't take me long to decide that the Christian faith was not worthy of belief. That very concept of God was not worthy of belief.
I look at my belief honestly through faith. I believe it is a gift I have. I came to the conclusion long ago that what you see as "solid information" is often a deception so I looked to something Greater. It is a spiritual journey and I believe it has far more value than what you call "solid information." I also see it increases my ability to love in spite of adverse situations. Given your unbelief frame of reference, I totally understand the logic you pursue. My own logic coincides with my beliefs. Logic only augments my faith. My faith does not depend on it. So perhaps your faith depended on logic and that is why you fell away. I am not being critical, just speculating. You and I have had honest discussions and you have my respect indeed!
You look at your belief "honestly through faith" and I don't see how that is possible. By viewing ANYTHING "through faith" you are starting out with a biased view. You need to approach your belief with no bias. There are many religious beliefs in this world and yet you reject them all but the one you hold. Unsurprisingly you hold no faith in those other beliefs. Why do you reject those other beliefs and hold to the one you have? You've already given the answer, "faith" and yet "faith" should not be the start of the investigation. It should be the end and it should only be arrived at when you have sufficient evidence to warrant it. I thought I had sufficient evidence but it turned out that much of what I thought was "evidence" were just claims I had blindly accepted.
Why is it a miracle that the scripture was preserved? The largest empire in the world compiled and preserved them. The same power kept a flame burning for a thousand years, I’m sure they can preserve the book that they wrote.
It's often been said "it is always easier to explain away a miracle than to acknowledge it". Try two thousand years! Funny that you see Paul, James, Abraham, Moses, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and a few others as the "power that kept the flame burning"! I would say the power that compiled and preserved it is nonother than the Holy Spirit. I know a lot of those fellows took severe beatings and even martyrdom for what they did!
I don’t think you understood what I meant. The Sacred Flame of Vesta burned in the temple for a thousand years throughout the Roman Republic and then the Empire, it was only when the government turned away from the old gods to Christianity that the flame went out. The Roman Catholic Church kept the scriptures intact from 325 onward to the advent of the printing press. It was no miracle of spirit, it was the institutions that valued these religious symbols that preserved them.
But the Roman Catholic Church used those scriptures for POWER. Only the Priests had access to them and they conferred with the Monarchy. Many gave their lives to translate from Latin into languages that could be understood by the laity. They gave their lives so the WORD was not a private interpretation but available to all. Foxes Book of Martyrs is full of those examples. So yes, there are miracles involved and those are attributed to the Holy Spirit. What mankind used for evil (power) God turned around for good.
Your chart (religiosity) often confuses denominational loyalty with persons of Faith. Those 4000 baptized in the OP were not commiting loyalty to any denom. Their loyalty is only to Christ. Most secular Americans do not understand that. The same goes worldwide!
