Venezuela and US Imperialism

A common talking point I see when discussing Socialism, Democratic or otherwise, is the state of affairs in Venezuela. I absolutely agree that things aren’t great there, but this thread is not inherently about Socialism. I’d like to discuss US Imperialism and the affects it can have on countries/regions impacted by it, regardless of their political or economic systems.

Here is a snip from a Time article.

So the questions I would like to pose are as follows:
Do you believe US Imperialism exists?
Do you believe that US Imperialism is morally justifiable?
Do you believe that countries ultimately end up better off for it?
Do you believe the US would be a successful nation if it had to endure 70+ years of violent interference from powerful foreign interests?

 

It depends on what we term 'US Imperialism'. Do we have a respected Head of State? Do we have a symbol of an Empire, a symbol of unity? The obvious answer to any of this is no, so we do not have a proper Imperial State. Nor does an Empire necessarily have to conquer per se.

In fact, one of the modern day failings of the American State is that we're the worst country at expansion in the history of the human race. Alaska/Hawaii aren't really connected. And as you pointed out, we lack the interest of and in the Latin American States, yet our military is there(and as you pointed out, to protect our corporations overseas.)

To call such a State, which is led by corporate power as an Empire mocks the imperial State. It's a military State, one whose social movement has been gradually silenced by the political Washington who pacifies the people with pretty words, but has absolutely ZERO intention of fulfilling said promises. That led to the 2016 election of the outsider, and congressional failure to continue heeding people led to the derangement that was TDS.

But make no mistake, we're not an Imperial State by any stretch of the imagination. You don't need to have a military power to have a unifying central figure for the government, just look at Britain/Japan, who've successfully maintained the symbol without military power.

We're a failed military state who spends more on weapons than we do on the next 8 items of the government budget COMBINED.
And the guise called 'democracy' covers all of these up, while we lap it all up.

Even when/if we succeed in creating an Empire, our nation's lack of ambition makes me consider dropping a lot of the colonies. Because it's only an colony if we're willing to build it ourselves. We say we want to "spread democracy", but democracies are built. They're not torn down. If we want a Democratic Empire, then we have to realize that it means the same thing as any other world power. We have to build it ourselves and have it in our favor.

But we're not willing to take that step. That's not "who we are". And hey, that's okay. We can perfectly emulate Britain and Japan and the Empire can prosper with the land, and opportunities of our 50 States. It just means we have to end the democracy around the world dream.

 

Imperialism is just another term for influence so yes it exists to some degree.

All imperialism is justified to those conducting it, morality is defined by the society so yes it is and no it isn't, depends what side you are on.

The benefits of it depends who you ask, some people are better while others are not.

We did survive that influence and even kicked it out. The fact that most other nations cannot tells you their place in the hierarchy of human existence. Some societies are just superior to others.

 

First off I’d like to thank you for accepting my invitation and for your well thought out post.

I agree that we are not a proper imperialist state. My use of the term US Imperialism is informed by the Oxford definition ofImperialism.
“a policy of extending a country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force.”
I think it’s fair to say that we both agree that the US practices this behavior.

That was certainly a deep dive into the first, (maybe second?) question. I’d be interested in your opinion of the rest.

 

What violent foreign influence in the US are you referring to? How long ago did it occur?

 

The British specifically is what I was referring to but it's a never ending issue for all nations in some form. Vietnam threw out the French and US, Haitian slaves threw out napoleon twice. A nation's ability to deal with any type of imperialism is always changing. One can argue that the UN practices imperialism so what nations resist it and which ones do not?

 

So that was more than 100 years ago, not ongoing up to this day, yes?
My question asked for the results of a hypothetical that are still ongoing.

 

Still ongoing and I gave the UN as an example. There are many around depending on what you want to classify as imperialism. Britain and the Falkland Islands us and Puerto Rico.....lots of them

 

I see topics like this, and the thing that is always missed is do others want to emulate the US, and if they do, but aren't an integral part of the US, is that actually imperialism. I think that's an open question. Our more socialist members will not agree that the spread of state socialism around the globe isn't imperialism, but they will suggest that US model adoption is. So, it's never an even playing field for discussion. So, what difference does it make? The US isn't out there colonizing places, and the use of US resources to maintain peace in regions torn up by conflict that upsets the global community is always viewed as imperialism by most left leaning folks. I suppose that if Biden is inaugurated, we will soon see just how deeply his appetite for neo colonialism is. Hard to estimate at this point.

We shall see though. And it will be entirely expected should our left leaning posters not want to discuss this obvious miss.

 

Yes to all.

 

Still ongoing in the US from who? Explain.

 

That's not remotely true. Want me to rustle up some charts to show you how you're in error?

 

At least you’re consistent.

 

As I stated, imperialism is just another term for influence.

We saw Russia use imperialism in our previous election. Canadians buying up US real estate is another example

Any nation we have an unfair trade balance with is pure imperialism.

 

By all means, this is a civil discussion so show me the error of my ways.

 

Countries adopting economic systems and and forms of government similar to the US are not the victims of US Imperialism. Their change is coming from within.
This goes the same for if the US chose to adopt Socialism for its economic and political structure. That is not socialistic imperialism.
US imperialism, as has been enacted on Latin American countries has been violent interference from an outside power. When the US’ borders are not threatened by a country outside of its borders projecting US will there is imperialism.

 

I feel you’ve lost sight of the original question. Let’s circle back to that.

“Do you believe the US would be a successful nation if it had to endure 70+ years of violent interference from powerful foreign interests?”

 

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_pie,__2015_enacted.png

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_pie,__2015_enacted.png

 

Hmm.. ok, that's your opinion. It does't make it declaratory fact. I ask a pretty simplistic question for you to answer then. If Russia wants the US to become a socialistic authoritarian state, or if china does, and they buy, or induce folks in this country to pine for it, for you, that isn't ideological imperialism? You bring up instances where democrats over the years decided to plant us interests in those nations, but be honest. Since about 1972, where are you examples? Does fending off Russians in Afghanistan count? Does fending off Sunni Muslims count? Does supporting forces in S American countries fighting communism count? I mean, be honest about it. This isn't the 1950s anymore, and hasn't been for a really long time. And yet, it is your assertion that somehow we've never evolved passed that point in history. I get this is what liberals teach in universities these days. But FFS this hasn't existed in reality in forever.

And what we face now are countries like China who actually believe in their own version of manifest destiny and their willingness to subjugate the world around them isn't a secret. Watch them in Africa. Watch them in their own back yards. Ask the folks in Nepal what they think. Ask folks in Taiwan what they think Ask why China actively underwrites Iran. And yet, you'd like us to think about a policy that hasn't existed since Nixon (who effectively ended it) to believe we're still the evil nation that runs coups. I'd just ask why you excuse democrats, since it appears they still believe in this crap.

I would simply point out that for those places you claim are A OK because the change came from "within" that I'm pretty sure that you can find the insinuation point at which it was imported into those nations. It's why Iraq is the mess that it is today. Corruption was easier than creating representative government. And success is still who subjugates the masses there. Much like democrats in the US these days.

I seriously doubt you understand the words you strung together in your last sentence. I'd ask, in a globally competitive environment, and since your team democrats have decided there aren't actually boarders worth defending. how that isn't an active attempt to forcefully change this country? When mr Biden, or ms Harris claim we are borderless and just another member of the international community and must adhere to their rules, who's imperialism are they supporting, and why?

 

So we've dropped to 3rd in military spending, thanks for that. I did know about the rising health costs and the state pension crisis that ironically Pelosi tried to extort out of Trump(now she won't have to extort, Biden will gladly give it to her.) I'm not sure how I feel about the state bailout, I'd rather the States have found a way to pay their own debt. Especially since this means massive taxation probably higher than at just the State level.

But my greater point stands that, just look at science: 1%. Go look at education, 3%. Food and Argiculture 3%. The point is the Union, far from self-sustaining is collapsing under the weight of programs that do not in the long term create wealth.

I want to redirect spending from these dead end items, to a renaissance infrastructure. I'm aware of our enemies and their depth, but that's all the more reason for negotiating peace where possible and reducing tensions, because that would lead to long-term prosperity.

 

The statistics for American education spending are misleading because something like 90% of education spending is at the state and local level, not Federal.

the only time to cut military spending is when all your potential enemies are dead.

 

If Venezuela wants this shitty government so be it.

What ever happened to the defence forces defending the homeland?

 

You know, if you wanted to avoid the entire point of the conversation you could have just not posted at all.

 

1. Imperialism is bad.
2. Defence forces should be defending the homeland not touring the Caribbean.

Seems pretty on topic to me.

 

First of all, I would like to mention the terms socialism and communism in the USA. The Cold War of yore has been over for 30 years, but it is still deeply anchored in the minds of US society. The right-wingers in particular use these terms very often and gladly ... however, they just as often show ignorance and one can also say that they misuse the terms to discredit the opponent. Even the term "social" is suspicious, because it could be socialist ... but it is not even close!

To your questions:

Do you believe US Imperialism exists?
The clear answer to that is yes! The definition of imperialism is:

"Imperialism is the term used to describe the endeavor of a state or its political leadership to gain political and economic influence in other countries or with other peoples, right up to their submission and integration into their own sphere of influence."

How many examples of US imperialism should I give now?
I want to make it short: For example, you can take every single (!) country in Central America for it ... and this US behavior continues to this day!

Let's just hypothetically assume that Mexico or any other Central American country is not in the mood for the US further etc. and starts to cuddle with China ... not only to enter into close economic relations, but also to allow the Chinese military to be in Mexico etc.
Question: How long is the countdown until the US shows Mexico economically and militarily that it was a very bad idea?

Do you believe that US Imperialism is morally justifiable?
Only very limited and more a No as answer.
In addition, the US has lost all moral integrity through its behavior. Do I have to seriously remember the long list of "El Presidente" dictators who were not only brought to power by the USA against the will of the people, but were also kept in power with unbelievable brutal repression?
And the answer that is often given that it was mostly during cold war is noit only just a ridiculous and lame excuse, but also not true!

Do you believe that countries ultimately end up better off for it?
You cannot answer that simply or generally with Yes or No! Much is also a question of "what if" and the answer to that is always more speculation than fact.

But let's take the coup in Honduras in 2009. The extent to which the USA was actively involved is still being discussed, but there are clear indications that the USA was anything but inactive and quickly decided in favor of the arch-conservative coup plotters concerns. The fact is that the USA - here under Obama - (please, republican US presidents did the same in other countries) very quickly recognized the coup government as pretty much the only one.
In addition, it is only since then that Honduras has become a total shithole ... and the USA is for a good part to blame for this ... and it is also a reason why so many people from Honduras want to immigrate illegally at the US border. Sometimes your own mistakes later bite you in the own butt ... isn't it?

Do you believe the US would be a successful nation if it had to endure 70+ years of violent interference from powerful foreign interests?
The simple and short answer is "No, never ever"!