Viktor Orbán, Defender of Christianity

Trump's grovling before the KGB thug and abandoning democracy is hardly surprising, is it?

 

Was it 'abandoning democracy' when we didn't stop the dictatorship of Azerbaijan from shelling, invading and annexing part of democratic Armenia in 2022?

...or can we have our own democracy without being the police of the world?

 

So, what method do you think Trump would use to end the war in support of Putin and Orban?

 

Trump doesn't want our own democracy, and has worked hard to end it.

He promises to continue working to defeat democracy.

 

The easiest way to win for the war for Putin would be to keep sending Ukraine the arms that allow it to keep fighting a losing war. It doesn't have the manpower to win, and NATO can't give them more manpower without escalating to WW3 ...which no one wins. By giving Ukraine weapons but no troops, we ensure they keep getting attritioned to a weaker and weaker position. Eventually, they will not be able to hold a defensive line, and Putin can take more (potentially all) of Ukraine. What we're doing now is the best thing for a Putin landgrab in the long run.

Literally anything that ends the war now is better than that, including a brokered peace that ends up with Russia and Ukraine fighting diplomatically over the control of the occupied lands, even if the diplomatic fight goes on for decades, and even if Russia ends up getting to keep it, because that's the only way that Ukraine keeps what is still has and we don't all have WW3.

 

Citation required (because if its what I think it is, its taken completely out of context and easily debunked).

 

Well, that isn't a "24 hour" plan.

And, why would Russia give up on owning Ukraine if Ukraine were to be WEAKENED?

Does that sound like Putin to you?

 

I dunno what Trump's plan is, but my plan would be to offer one last and large defense package to Ukraine, conditional on offering a ceasefire and peace talks with Russia. If they're wise, they'll use it to broker from a position of defensible strength. If they're not, they'll keep fighting until they can't defend themselves anymore. But I don't think they would.

If Russia refuses the talks, we can reassess the level of our involvement. But I don't think they would.

 

Ukraine's offer is going to be along the lines of "get out of our country".

And, what would be Putin's demand in this negotiation you suggest? It's going to be along the lines off, "I'll do a really nice job of governing Ukraine." Putin has enough trouble at home. He can't just roll over.

The US is not their only source of arms, by the way.

 

Putin occupies ~10% of Ukraine and Ukraine doesnt have the manpower to change that. Either he keeps it for now, or we have WW3. There is no third option. Continuing to send only weapons to Ukraine wont change that. The best we can do without kicking Russia out ourselves is to end the war and continue the fight diplomatically. Everything else just leads to Russia attritioning Ukraine until more of Ukraine falls.

If Ukraine wants to be attritioned into nonexistence by Russia, thats their call, and they can do that without our help. But I dont think thats what they want.

 

I think that is what Putin wants.

Ukraine and the US are not the only countries involved.

 

Yes, clearly Putin wants to keep the ~10% of Ukraine he currently occupies. No one is questioning that... the question is what do you think we should do about it?

Do you think Ukraine, which as been conscripting the partially disabled to the front line for over a year now, might be able to turn the tables and push Russia out? If so, why havn't they made any progress yet? What are they going to do differently?

If not, then what is the point of continuing the war?

Or do you want NATO boots on the ground and WW3?

Russia isn't just going to give up and leave, and we have to have some sort of plan, otherwise we're just funding another forever war which is and has been slowly trending toward the total destruction Ukraine.

 

I agree that US involvement in Ukrainian decisions is awkward.

But, we DO have interest in terms of the fact that Russian conquest of neighboring countries is illegal by international agreement. And, victory in Ukraine only means that Russia may pick the next Republic of the USSR to incorporate by war.

Stopping Russia in Ukraine is far better than allowing Russia to prevail and then trying to stop them in their NEXT war of conquest.

 

OK, so how does helping Ukraine get slowly attritioned to death help 'stop Russia'? The defensive capability of Ukraine is reduced every time one of their warfighters is killed. Its the same with Russia, but Russia can absoarb those losses and Ukraine can't. At a certain point, Ukraine has all the weapons in the world but no one to fire them and no one to prevent their capture by the Russians. Right now Ukraine has a strong defensive line. But it won't last forever, and Russia has demonstrated that its willing to slowly grind the defensive line as long as it can, and no one knows how long that is. We're not 'stopping Russia' right now... we're just watching it win very slowly. A ceasefire would stop Russia now and allow Ukraine to fortify a permanent, stronger defensive line, and possibly even allow for UN or NATO 'peacekeepers' on the ground that would make renewed hostilities very unpalatable for Russia. But in order to accomplish this, we have to give up on the notion of Ukraine casting 'miracle' and somehow kicking Russia out on their own. They just can't.

 

One can't assume Russia would stop simply because Ukraine gave them a section of Ukraine.

Ukraine is a major breadbasket of resources - something Russia seriously needs. That's not solved by giving Russia the Eastern 20%, or whatever.

Plus, the idea that Russia would allow Ukraine to build military power along the border or allow Ukraine to join NATO sounds dillusional to me.

 

One doesnt need to assume to anything. All one has to do is get Russia to agree to a ceasefire. Then defenses can be built up to a point that Russia cannot break through them.

And sure, its not guaranteed to work, but it has a much better chance of working than what is happening now.

What do you think will allow Ukraine to reverse or overcome the current state of attrition and push Russia out?

 

His actions against free speech aren't "defending Christianity." They are pure fascism. Real Christians should be able to defend Christianity with speech of their own. Not by using the government to silence others.

The way the far right hold up fascists like this is extremely disturbing. But it isn't even the far right at this point. This **** is mainstream among the right: the worship of fascists.

 

You are being far, far, far too generous. It isn't just that we can't assume that Russia would stop if we allowed them a partial fascist invasion, @modernpaladin . The Neville Chamberlain style approach will ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE Russia to invade further.

 

People can have differences and still have a common culture. Fascism is never the right thing. I encourage you to reevaluate your principles.

 

Russia is still invading right now. Despite our avalanching weapons onto Ukraine, their invasion yet continues, just much more slowly. What do you think is going to change that, given that attrition squarely favors Russia?

 

And what is wrong with that?

 

Yes, the world would be a better place run by racist white nationalists (for racist white nationalists).

 

There could be some truth there.

 

There is no such things “ defending Christianity”. Jesus Christ was God yet he died on the cross. The core teaching of Christianity is “ the kingdom of God is not on this earth”.

The so-called Christians in the West think Christianity is a nation on earth which needs defending.

 

Or, there could be some nonsense there.