Waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed DID NOT LEAD TO THE CAPTURE OF OSAMA BIN LADEN!!

Indeed, I agree.

 

Reminds me of the exchange in A Few Good Men.

"*I want the truth!*
Col. Jessep: *You can't handle the truth!*
[pauses]
Col. Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a (*)(*)(*)(*) what you think you are entitled to. "

 

Not according to this guy.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz1MpAFJZ8I

Nice use of weasel words there. "positive impact". What exactly does that mean? It's funny that the right can't produce any absolute statements and instead have to resort to weasel words.

There's lots of conflicting evidence -- even from Panetta himself -- whether waterboarding produced any reliable information. The only thing we know definitively is:

 

OK. Water-boarding didn't help get UML. If you say so. Guess what UML is dead. Want to guess how many 'rendition' guests are enjoying themselves in South Central Europe having a nice 'dip' in the water right now? Hint: Probably around three hundred. Too many people do not understand that water-boarding is never meant to elicit information. It is intended to break a persons spirit. KSM ended up asking for a white board so he could better provide details about AQ. Right now he is a peaceful cooperative model prisoner and he's renounced AQ and has expressed regret for his part in 911.

 

To the torture advocates: Information which led to the capture of OBL was not obtained through the use of torture.

Here is what McCain wrote a week aago in Washinton Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...orture/2011/05/11/AFd1mdsG_story.html?hpid=z2
I asked CIA Director Leon Panetta for the facts, and he told me the following: The trail to bin Laden did not begin with a disclosure from Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times. The first mention of Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti — the nickname of the al-Qaeda courier who ultimately led us to bin Laden — as well as a description of him as an important member of al-Qaeda, came from a detainee held in another country, who we believe was not tortured. None of the three detainees who were waterboarded provided Abu Ahmed’s real name, his whereabouts or an accurate description of his role in al-Qaeda.


Regarding the effectiveness of torture:

In fact, the use of “enhanced interrogation techniques” on Khalid Sheik Mohammed produced false and misleading information. He specifically told his interrogators that Abu Ahmed had moved to Peshawar, got married and ceased his role as an al-Qaeda facilitator — none of which was true. According to the staff of the Senate intelligence committee, the best intelligence gained from a CIA detainee — information describing Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti’s real role in al-Qaeda and his true relationship to bin Laden — was obtained through standard, noncoercive means.

And then there is McCain's own experience with torture:

I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners sometimes produces good intelligence but often produces bad intelligence because under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear — true or false — if he believes it will relieve his suffering. Often, information provided to stop the torture is deliberately misleading.

 

Nice attempt the hide behind the Leftlies. KSM provided the CODE NAME for the courier, AFTER being waterboarded.

In addition , your claoims about Japanses war crimes are complete bullcrap. Beheadings, dismemberments, starvation and summary executions were the "primary evidence" against them. Waterboarding, even "Japanese-style" ,which differs hugely from what we do, was NOT a "major" consideration, and no Leftninny history rewrites can change that.

 

What is this 'real American' you keep referring to? Is it that chap on the horse-looking steely-eyed into the distance, cradling his Winchester, while gingham-clad Bobbie-May gazes adoringly at his manliness?

 

According to the Democratic Party appointed CIA Director, Leon Panetta, the enhanced techniques (ie... waterboarding) had a direct impact on getting Bin Laden. Also... we killed him.... not "captured".

This thread title has been debunked as totally bogus. It is embarrassing that someone would BOLD something so easily proven wrong.

 

As I documented earlier KSM was not even asked about the courier until months after he was tortured. It was not torture that produced the name.


Let us just see what the previous article said about what the convictions after WWII were based on:

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.


Why are you so keen on torturing prisoners?

 

You don't seem to understand that McCain is correcting the wrong information Panetta gave.

 

Even if you type it in all caps like you did it still won't make it true. According to the director of the CIA enhanced interrogation DID play a role in getting Bin Laden.

I know that makes you sad and I'm ok with that.

 

The trail began under Bush/Cheney and they were finally able to act on all the info this year.

It's not like an episode of Starsky and Hutch where an informer finally gives the address where Bin Laden was.

 

Why the hell should anyone take the CIA's word for it? The CIA are liars.

 

There was a video actually, literally.

The CIA destroyed the videos despite court orders not to and requests of the 9/11 commission who really needed to see these tapes.

Guess you'll just have to take the CIA's word for it now.

 

Since this is a "fact" as you say did KSM tell you this? Or did you get your "fact" via mindreading?

 

It's never been proven that he "came up with the idea of 9/11". This is based on hearsay evidence from the CIA that they managed to torture him into admitting this.

There's no actual evidence to confirm that.

 

Fifth Amendment:

"...nor shall any person be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

and..

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Holding people indefinatily w/o trial, US citizen or not, and then putting them in stress postitions and depriving them of sleep until they go insande and then pouring water into their lungs is all quite unconstitutional.

 

Time number FOUR I'll ask you..

If waterboarding isn't so bad, why are you dishonest about what it actually is and continuously sugar coat it?

 

You sure do like to misrepresent international law don't you? At least use elipses (...) so we know you are using things out of context.

a, b, c, and d above refer to only one category of POW's.. There were OTHER categories there too, didn't you notice?

 

U.S. federal statute, and international treaties which the U.S. are party to, do most certainly have it carved in stone.

e.g.. "threat of imminent death" (e.g. simulated drowning) and "procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality" (e.g. sleep deprivation).

What does it say for unarmed people arrested off the battlefield in residential raids in non-belligerant countries?

 

You're kidding right? American forces have tortured detainees TO DEATH in different bases in Iraq and Afghanistan. NO American soldiers or agents have EVER been charged with murder or even manslaughter for it.

As for you asking which is worse? You're BOTH the SAME.. You have BOTH murdered your captives and tortured them.

 

So all the people you put through "EIT" admitted to their crimes BEFORE they got their EIT treatments? You got evidence for this?

You're talking bollocks.. KSM didn't declare involvement in 9/11 until AFTER they tortured it out of him, before then he denied it.

 

YES in the manner you used in the EIT.. Torture is defined by U.S. federal and international law as including "threat of imminent death" and "procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality".

Yes the Japanese defendents did do much worse than waterboarding.. The fact remains that waterboarding was listed amongst their charges, it was listed as a crime on the list of crimes they were on trial for, therefore the fact remains it WAS treated as a crime.

 

Paranoid false dichotomy FTW!!!!

We need to torture or else we'll have more towers getting knocked over by planes...

Nevermind the solution is as easy as the first time around i.e. not letting people bring weapons onto planes.

 

Can you show us the quotes?