We (OWS) Get To Stay!

how about one saying ' Close all those US bases and use the money to feed and house and treat the poor and sick'

sounds like Margot, you must be her husband

agreed

I doubt they are prepared to be on the other end of a 'Made in USA' tear gas canister or bullet.
If they are celebrating a huge victory keeping cleaners out then they are in for a shock when the bullets fly and martyrs are dying.
Right now it's more like a music festival than a protest but it might change we will see.

 

New technological innovations, the legalization of birth control and abortion, and the accumulation of debt (the latter of which in particular has everything to do with the growing influence of the financial sector over the economy as a whole) account for virtually all of those technical differences over the last 35 years. (During the '60s and early '70s, there was indeed a genuine reduction in American poverty, by contrast.) Debt accumulation is not a sustainable basis for living. Most people know that. You don't seem to. Inflation-adjusted income levels are what really and truly count, and, overall, they've fallen off by nearly 10 percent in the last three and a half years alone.

Now here's something else to keep in mind: 35 years ago, the typical American household had one income and it amounted to about the same level (after you adjust for inflation) as today's typical American household takes in...but today's standard American household is a two-income household! In other words, it now takes two jobs to earn essentially as much as the typical American did with one 35 years ago. Women were permitted to enter the workforce because, after a certain point, introducing a second income to the standard household was the only way the objective American standard of living could continue to rise. It is no coincidence that union membership as a percentage of the working population begins to drop precisely in the '60s and '70s, and continues to today. Another one of the biggest reasons though that people are occupying Wall Street and other places right now is doubtless the resultant increase in the instability of people's economic lives. People's jobs and incomes are no longer relatively secure like they were a couple generations ago. Frankly, said increase in people's economic instability is also obviously a leading cause in the steady decline in the reported personal happiness of Americans with their lives during the same period. Despite having technically less property than Americans, people report being distinctly happier with their lives in Sweden, where income inequality is the lowest on Earth and the rate of union membership is among the highest on Earth. Economic security matters too, not just people's level of richness. And economic security decreases as the distribution of wealth grows more and more unequal in a given society. That's another real reason why people do, in fact, tend to care about the basic fairness of wealth distribution.

 

Until an extremist from either side pulls out their legally registered handgun and starts shooting and some innocent bystander gets hit and dies. That will change your entire persepective on the entire scenario.

Using violence against the protesters will only strengthen their resolve to force change on American society.

 

Polly no doubt you mean well, but in truth, solutions are required to all of life's difficulties and not general moaning and groaning.

You sound like such a diverse group that nothing will come of it.

Furthermore the US isn't special.

All over the West people are having a hard time right now.

We had it too good for a while and the bubble is burst.

Guess what? You and hubby will have to go to work. Is that so bad?


And for the record, you know nothing of poverty with internet at your fingertips and a college education.

Take a look and India and Africa and count your blessings.

Make your contribution instead of general whining.

 

I understand their reasons for doing this but if they never have any central demands nothing will ever change. Central demands are important to direct the government and our representitives in the proper direction. If our reps do not get proper direction they will falter and fail to meet your concerns.

 

The "World Socialist Web Site" is your source? Wow, I didn't see THAT coming, Polly.

It's hardly surprising that wages are going to drop during a recession - I don't know why this should or would astound you or anyone else. This is typical of any deep economic downturn.

I do agree with you that the accumulation of debt in this country is not sustainable. Did you happen to vote for the man who is responsible for racking up the record-breaking deficits we have been running since 2009? The government, not Wall Street, is what's running up the debt - why aren't you 225 miles to the south protesting against the people responsible for that profligacy? If you kids don't get a handle on that, your standard of living will be crap (don't say the Tea Partiers didn't warn you ).

I don't think you have any idea what this country was like during the post-WWII Golden Age, Polly. The world has radically changed since then, as has America and its prominence in the world. Get used to it.

As for women entering the work force, this was also a product of WWII, as well as the "womens lib" movement. Many women began to stake out an education and career of their own to break their dependence on men in what had been a suffocatingly paternalistic society. Compare this situation to that of Saudi Arabian women, whose fates are inextricably bound to men. I think you would agree that this is no way for a woman to have to live.

Imagine what life was like during WWII. Today's instability and insecurity is insignificant in comparison.

Well, Socialists are all about wealth distribution/redistribution, aren't they, Polly? How did that work out in the Soviet Union and other socialist states that labored under the delusion of their unworkable utopian fantasies?

Like I said before, the world has changed since WWII, and its changed since the fall of the Berlin Wall. America's prominence and power in relationship to the rest of the world will continue to diminish from the hay day of the Eisenhower era.

There are several major problems that confront your generation - one is dealing with the bad demographic hand you have been dealt, and the other is figuring out how to strengthen our economy so you can maintain the standard of living that older Americans enjoy now and want you to enjoy in the future.

Hanging out in Camp ANSWERnik and railing against Capitalism isn't going to solve your problems, Polly. You need to rediscover the can-do spirit and sense of personal responsibility of your forebears that made this country great.

 

This is by far the stoopidest thing I've ever seen on this site. WW11 wasn't something that was caused by corporate greed. The current economic turmoil is. There's is just no comparison whatsoever.

 

That is by far one of the lamest red herrings I've ever seen on this site.
I was speaking of the instability and insecurity that Americans endured during WWII, not the cause of that war. Most of the anti-Capitalist cry-babies in Camp ANSWERnik have never endured anything comparable to what that generation experienced, and that generation didn't whine about it, either.

 

While I agree there was much instability in the U.S. during WW11 that instability was world wide and not caused by the U.S. IMO the world is going thru an economic nightmare because of the actions of those on Wall Street and on Capitol Hill. It was also entirely preventable. Not much could've been done about Hitler once he started his war machine. War and finance are not one and the same.

 

Correct, but my point is: What gave rise to the feminist movement? It didn't just pop up out of nowhere. It's emergence was the product of social forces and conditions, not a coincidence. Such developments do not just randomly emerge upon the stage of history.

Neither is the fact that women are struggling for certain extremely basic rights now in the Arab world, including in Saudi Arabia, a coincidence. It is part of a mass movement in the region that was birthed from the global economic crisis.

I cited them for what I view as the quality of their summation in this instance. I actually do not agree with their political line as a whole. The article in question cites its own, very credible sources for its statistical data (e.g. the U.S. Census Bureau).

Not that it matters, but I did not vote in either 2008 or 2010, if that's what you mean. But why don't you be a little more honest: the current situation of the masses in this country is not just the doing of one bad man. It is the criminal doing of a class, whose interests both of major political parties clearly represent.

Has it ever occurred to you that there are differences between democratic socialists (such as yours truly) and tyrannical expressions of socialism such as the communist regimes of the 20th century? Do you really believe that I'm here to advocate on behalf of the likes of Kim Jong Il?

In other words, I should vote Republican and otherwise just sit back and accept the privatization of life in general and the resultant mass misery it tends to bring. Nope, sorry. Not interested. I have needs and a conscience and I fully intend to do what I can to bring into being a more just kind of society.

 

Hi - Polly , I hope you find this of some interest :

"Guru of greed: The cult of selfishness" (



Why is it that millions of ordinary Americans vote for conservative policies that seem inimical to their lives? Why are the politicians who support healthcare reforms to give access to a doctor for the 47 million Americans without insurance branded as closet socialists or worse?


Why, in this upside-down world do so many blue-collar Americans vote Republican, and family farmers support a President whose Wall Street friends would gladly push them off the land?

Why do people shrug and say "tough", when they read that hundreds of thousands of Americans have lost their homes, after falling victims to crooked mortgage salesmen? The most common response is that millions of people who otherwise could never have afforded a home are now enjoying the American Dream.

Perhaps the greatest political riddle of the US is why so many Americans vote against their economic and social interests?:
"
So what's the matter with America?

read more


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/guru-of-greed-the-cult-of-selfishness-396690.html


(oct-2007)


cheers.

.....

 

I just posted this in another thread on the topic:

The movement is spreading:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,791918,00.html

Reportedly thousands of people demonstrated in front of the EZB in Frankfurt today and tens of thousands in various other German cities.

 

Well, keep wizzin and poopin in the Park. Winter will help with the stench.

 

Actually it isn't!! Compared to congress, Obama is wildly popular!!

I disagree strongly!! In fact, this post doesn't even make sense. Which is surprising, because usually your posts are of the highest quality(even when I disagree). Having an idea of how to fix the problems is important. Having no central ideas IS a problem. Occupy wall-street is a minor irritation at the moment, but that should NOT be the goal. The goal should be to enact real change, which will improve the system.

So while I do agree that the 2 party system is major failure, and both parties are equally incompetent and corrupt, I am interested in how to change that!! Otherwise, all I am doing is stamping my feet and yelling like a child!!

I think the number one priority of the OWS should be this tenant. The separation of business and state!! Get government back to doing the business of the people, and not the business of huge multinational corporations and special interest groups. That cannot be painted in a negative light, and would win the propaganda war(the right is winning now, by using this brilliant argument "look at those people, they look unclean and silly" and that is it). It cannot be painted as opposed to capitalism, in fact it can be painted as a move in FAVOR of free market capitalism. We want true competition, and an end to the government granted privileges which make it impossible for small and medium sized firms to compete with giant corporations.


So how do we do that? A constitutional amendment making all elections publicly financed. That way corporations and special interest groups can no longer buy our politicians. Similarly include provisions against legislating entities from which you have taken money from. In other words, if you want to give a talk at Exxon, fine, but you will need to recuse yourself from voting on issues that impact Exxon. This is far from a panacea, but it is a good start.


There are other things that can be said as well!! End the bailouts, stop the tax cuts for the rich, equal rights for minorities, etc. There is a coherent message to be promoted, it is just that OWS isn't promoting it at the moment!! Once they do, I will travel downtown after class a few times a week to join them(as long as I agree with their message that is).

 

"leftists" were always opposed to the bailouts!! However, the corporate shill Obama, he supported it while he was in congress. No actual "leftist" would ever support a bill which gave billions of taxpayer dollars to the bankers who ruined the economy in the first place!!


PS. Go look at the voting record in that time. Look at the number of Democrats who voted against the bailout, as opposed to the number of Republicans. All the corporatist centrist Democrats(who are actually between right wing and center right on an international scale) supported it, while all the center left and left wing Democrats(who are actually centrist and center left by an international scale) opposed it. So please stop with the lies.

 

No, but thankfully they are given strength by particularly unfunny jokes!! So keep up your support!!

 

CBS, like all of our media, is corporate media!! They may not be right wing by the standards of the modern American right-wing(which is radically right wing), but they are strongly in favor of the status quo, and will attack any group opposed to that status quo. It is why the tea party got so much flack early on, until they were co-opted by the billionaires and the Republican party. The corporate media WILL always attack people opposed to the status quo, if this surprises you, then that surprises me.

 

What's this "we get to stay" stuff? It'll be a victory only when you don't have to ask someone's permission to stay. Only when you can say "FU, we're stayin'!"

 

Me too, poop is SO funny!! You see that fart icon I just posted, it is sort of like poop!! Oh, how hilarious!!


PS. This is the sole argument I have seen from the right about this issue, and that is the fault OF THE LEFT!! All people on the right do is say, hey look those people haven't showered, shaved, and are going to the bathroom in public, their political opinions are therefore invalid. That is of course a terrible logical fallacy, but it is effective as propaganda to discredit the OWS people. If the OWS people, would appoint well-spoken, clean, attractive spokespeople they would be better off for it. If they told the people to go home and shower, they would be better off for it. If they told people to only take a (*)(*)(*)(*) in toilets, they would be better off for it!! If those things don't happen, the message gets lost!! Because ultimately who wins the propaganda war, wins the argument(as a former Marxist, you should understand this argument).

 

Parasite:
a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others.

Sounds very familiar doesnt it?

W_LFA_E
R_C__PIEN_

Give you a hint.......

 

Your definition is applicable to the bankers.

 

Yup!, and it will be these same idiots eating and keeping warm on Thanksgiving Day at the Home that Dad and Mom bought through their sweat and tears,,but hey dont let me spoil the hypocrisy...
It is good to vent though, I can agree with that...

However if one of them hits the lottery you no doubt will be able to find them purchasing some Ski Chalet in the mountains...LOL


Far away from the greed of course......


I'm sure their Idol Steve Jobs would approve......

 

But wait....lets do the math....

CBS, while liberally leaning, is still a corporate entity. Agreed. That means they need to conceive ways to get viewers to sell ads. So if America is truly 99% poor and oppressed / 1% rich and in control.....whats the benefit of portraying the protesters negatively? They stand to lose viewers if things are as were told they are. Or is the MSM (tm) need to bash protesters overriding the underlying focus of corporations in general.. generating profits?

 

Not really.

Welfare: Financial or other aid provided, especially by the government, to people in need.

 

I am a little confused. Yes, the the focus of the corporate media is generating profits. They want to protect their profits, which means attacks on corporate interests are BAD for them. They similarly make money, not from viewers, but from advertisers. They want to please those advertisers, so again they are not going to portray a movement opposed to those interests in a positive light. The last thing they will look at is viewers, and they get plenty of viewers watching the (*)(*)(*)(*) dramas and comedies they put out, that the news can be a bit of a loss, as long as it is good for their profit making interests in general. And even that doesn't account everything. The media shapes public perception in a large respect, so if they negatively portray these people, people will NOT LIKE them, therefore I really do fail to see where the negative impact on profits comes in.