Well, I think it is more than that, as it is believed that the Bible is uncorrupted and uncorruptable - at the very least in terms of religion (as opposed to possible historic inconsistencies, or whatever). I'm not sure who the "them" is in that quote of Jesus on the cross. If it is just the soldiers, it seems to have little meaning, as to be saved those soldiers would need to accept who Jesus was and confess their need of salvation. If he decided to save specific heathens through special dispensation, I suppose he could, but it doesn't seem to mean a lot for the religion he was establishing. If by "them" he was talking about humanity as a whole, it might make more sense as the whole idea of the NT is that Jesus was sacrificed to provide a path for salvation, identifying humanity as not knowing what we do.
Forgiveness of sins didn't originate with Jesus on the cross. The sin, which Jesus prayed that his Father would forgive the sinners for, was murder. An innocent man was being executed by the Romans at the insistence of the Jews. It was their sin (of murder) that Jesus prayed for. Asking God for forgiveness of sins doesn't bring salvation upon anyone. It's the acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice and the belief that he is Lord of life, having been raised from death by God, that brings salvation to mankind.
Yes, but I'm just referring to the quote on the cross, not the general definition of the NT religion that was established by the sacrifice of Jesus. You quote the NT religion, but when did that actually start? When did the OT religion become worthless? Maybe the quote by Jesus was meant to grandfather in those who didn't get a chance to hear about and partake of the NT religion. ??
Oh, wait. Maybe I totally misunderstood what you meant here. Are you saying that the "they" referred to all Jews? After all, they didn't follow along with the idea that the path to heaven of Judaism was eliminated, leaving God's chosen people to certain hell. Maybe Jesus was concerned about that.
Normally sinners (at least those that are religious) know the sins they commit. The Pharisees were vipers that riled up the crowd to get Pilate to crucify Jesus. They knew not what they were doing, but via their voices they had an innocent man murdered. An accomplice is still guilty of murder even though they did it ignorantly. Jesus asked God to forgive them for the sin of murder. The NT starts with the Book of Acts, specifically on the day of Pentecost when the twelve received the gift of holy spirit. The rest of Acts chronicles the rise and expansion of the first century Christian church. That's the NT with the seven epistles of Paul detailing the specifics of what transpired during this time period. The Gospels fill out the OT where all that was prophesied in the other OT writings was fulfilled. Mankind always had the grace and mercy of God available throughout history. It just that the redemption of their fallen nature was brought about through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Lord and Saviour.
As I understand it, mankind was allowed forgiveness from God for their fallen nature before the NT. Judaism provided a pathway to heaven. I don't believe there is a branch of the Abrahamic faith that believes that Jews in the OT period had no way to get to heaven. In fact, they were God's chosen people, with God's constant aid in both war and peace. According to Christianity, on the day of Pentecost, the pathway to heaven provided by Judaism was closed. Followers of Judaism no longer had a pathway to heaven outside of believing that Jesus was the son of God whose human sacrifice had propitiated God for the sins of humans. That is a LOT of Jews who thought they were doing God's will, with the heart of their religion cut out by the sacrifice of Jesus in shocking style, mostly without them even knowing it happened. Maybe Jesus was thinking of God's chosen people who were left to an eternity in Hell - begging for them to be forgiven.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. Please pardon me for not addressing each point raised with an attempt at an equally thoughtful reply. Instead, I just want to ask one question on the premise of the OT prophesy of the coming messiah. If the OT believers had a pathway to redemption with the reward of heaven, why the necessity of the promised Christ, and his sacrifice replacing the sacrificial lamb of the OT?
The OT and the NT are one narrative. The OT never became worthless. Christianity is impossible to fully understand without the background of the OT. The actual history of the OT is one of forgiveness by God demanding a few penitential rites followed by the people losing sight of their responsibility to God only to become thoroughly corrupted yet again. Then God forgives again and imposes more rules. By the time you get to Deuteronomy, there's something like 600-700 required rituals and rules. After God frees the Jews from Egyptian slavery (over not a little bit of Jewish grumbling about how good they had it in Egypt while they were wandering in the wilderness eating manna provided by God), Moses goes up on Mt. Sanai to get the Ten Commandments the people revert to melting down the gold that Pharoah had given them to get out and they created a new pagan golden calf which led to being forced to wander in the wilderness for 40 years (in a fairly small area) until that entire generation, including Moses himself, died so they could be let into the promised land of Canaan. Jesus is the final triumph over Satan. Born into the tribe of Judah (one of only 2 of the original 12 tribes to still exist by that time) and the direct descendent of Moses, Abraham, and King David (as well as a few non-Jews). The lineage of the King. A devout Jew his entire life. Prophesied through out the entire OT (Isaiah, etc.). The sacrificial lamb that ended the sacrificial requirement for lambs at Passover, etc. Born without sin- fully man and fully God. Jewish law required that blasphemy be answered with death of the blasphemer. Jesus openly claimed to be God. The Jews were not simply pissed off at him, since they didn't recognize the Messiah, they killed what they thought was a blasphemer as required by their law. But Jesus didn't stay dead. Satan had no hold on him. He rose and joined his Father in Heaven. And serves as the final sacrifice for Jews and Gentiles alike. That's the greatest story ever told. Except it happened and is as proven as can be and it's not just a story.
That is a great question. I certainly don't know the answer. I'm sure it would have been a hugely captivating prophecy - who would not be incredibly excited about God or his representative coming to Earth! But, did they really believe it would reform or replace Judaism? Maybe there is a religious scholar here who can better describe this. I'd love to know.
Yes - that's the Christian version, not the Muslim version and not the Jewish version. It's a seriously jarring and Christian specific belief that Judaism died as a method of attaining heaven - in fact terminated by the Son of God. It's no surprise that Jews of the time didn't accept the notion that Jesus was among them in order to end their religious practice. And, his method of attracting a small number of followers was also not demanding of the respect of all Judaism. To those outside his sphere, it surely must have appeared as one more of the many cults of the day that had nothing about it to deserve serious respect or concern. I don't mean this to depreciate Christianity in any way - just to emphasize the change that Judaism, God's chosen people, were then and continue to be demanded to accept. Jesus told them, God's chosen people, that their religion didn't work anymore!!
You have not, but coming to terms with anything metaphysical is a matter for you and your conscience. It doesn't affect me.
And that's certainly a worthy consideration. I'll resist the temptation to respond and will continue to ponder. Thank you.
You are not alone, but the answer is a simple one. There would be no need for a Messiah, if man could have redeemed himself through the works of the law. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” The great mystery of the Grace Administration (one of seven biblically, if irc) is that Christ, via the gift of holy spirit, would be in each individual believer, whereby they have the power to do the works of Christ. (Thus the term [Christ] [in] an). God's enemy (the Devil) would have preferred to have dealt with just one Christ rather than a multitude of living representatives of him. Had he known the great mystery he would never have plotted to have him crucified. Salvation is one thing, but without the power of the holy spirit being exercised it only benefits one person. God wants us, His children, to be like Christ. We have the power within to be so, but very few realize their potential because the Adversary has blinded the eyes of many that don't know.
You could be right. Everyone has their own takeaway from it. To me, he wasn't referring to those who wanted him dead, but to those soldiers who were simply executing another criminal rather than rejecting their Savior. It also occurs to me that God the Father already knew their hearts. So the saying to forgive the soldiers was a lesson to the reader that one isn't accountable for that sin of which one is unaware.
I like that - an amazing example of forgiveness in this era of road rage, etc., and a timeless lesson. I do note that people tend to be unaware of their original sin, the sin that merits hell if specific action is not taken. The most startling thing to me is that Jesus invalidated Judaism, the religion of God's chosen people. Of course, Christians can argue that he provided a superior religion, in the case that Jews find that answer. But, that's still a remarkable act.
Good questions...... on one level..... Messiah Yeshua - Jesus certainly had the power to call down fire on them much as happened to Sodom and Gomorrah...... but that is not what The Heavenly Father or Messiah Yeshua - Jesus wanted to happen......... I would not be surprised if many of the specific soldiers who participated in the horrible death of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus may have joined the Messianic Jewish community.... and may themselves have became martyrs before they lived out their full lives........ Near death experience Bruce F. MacDonald was shown Jesus teaching his inner core of disciples some of the hidden teachings such as the Gnostics would eventually be into..... Assuming the validity of the Bruce MacDonald NDE.. Messiah Yeshua - Jesus was not an Orthodox Christian... he was Jewish.... and believed in the Gilgul Cycle of Judaism. http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ination-for-nobel-prize-in-literature.542590/ Your nomination for Nobel Prize in Literature? Here are ten paragraphs from Jesus teaching His inner core of disciples the hidden truths...... that were edited out of the Christian Bible....
