WesPac War

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Taxcutter, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,614
    Likes Received:
    2,492
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Then find me information of a rail gun being fired at a parabolic trajectory. Because I have looked, and never found any.

    Theoretically I can fire my M4 in a parabolic trajectory, but that does not mean I will ever do so, so I only fire it line of sight. Thinks like Artillery and Mortars we can fire in a parabolic trajectory, because these are not kinetic kill weapons but rely upon a large explosive charge in the end to do the damage.
     
  2. xAWACr

    xAWACr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    18
    It's never been fired anywhere outside of a lab. But I see your point, you'd have to substitute an explosive round for the penetrator. I don't see any problem with that, it might even work better than a conventional gun because the acceleration would be less extreme allowing more sophisticated guidance systems.
     
  3. xAWACr

    xAWACr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    18
  4. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The FEL or Free Electron Laser system is at a MUCH greater level of capability then has been so far advertised....and the FEL is NOT the only Direct Energy Weapon System the United States has already deployed as currently there are several Land Based FEL's currently operational and a few FEL's at sea and those at sea are testing on a smaller level of scale what the power consumption is and will be necessary during practical at sea battlefield conditions.

    There is currently a BIG ongoing argument about whether or not the two A1B Fission Reactors used to power the new Ford Class Carrier are capable of properly supplying the necessary electricity to not only the entire Carrier and it's Mag-Lev catapult system but as well also power the Carriers FEL system.

    This argument is specific to and for such U.S. Carriers and as well Cruisers to supply the necessary power to the FEL systems in order to not only vaporize incoming missiles or satellites in orbit....but as well be able to use the accompanying Network of Satellites which are much different than a standard Optical Reflective Mirror system to bounce a Laser beam generated from a U.S. Navy Ship and direct that Laser beam to targets that are over the horizon on and in land, air, space and sea.

    The specifics of the argument are connected to the method of targeting upon the Satellite Network as well as some are advocating adding an additional power source to supply sufficient amounts of electricity to the FEL system to be able to target and destroy deep under ocean enemy Subs which the U.S. can detect at any depth in any body of water using U.S. Satellite Ground and Sea Deep Penetrating Radars as well as Magnetometers and IR-Sensors.

    A properly supplied power FEL that is capable of destroying such subs and far distant over the horizon land targets cannot use a satellite standard reflective optical targeting system as the FEL beam will vaporize a standard Laser Reflection Mirror due to it's very nature and level of power.

    Because of this the FEL's Satellite Network uses a type of COMPOUND INSECT LIKE EYED PRISM TARGETING REFLECTION SYSTEM CAPABLE OF SPLIT BEAM TECHNOLOGY.

    Thus IF U.S. Military Planners want the capability to within a split second at the speed of light....vaporize any target or groups of targets anywhere on or under the Earth as such a High Powered Laser would be capable of penetrating deep underground....undersea....in space on land and in air and vaporize any target.

    As Discover Magazine stated in a article....A Nuclear Generated High Powered Electrical FEL beam that is 1 cm. in diameter at sufficient strength can obtain SOLAR CORE TEMPERATURES.

    Because of these obtainable temps. a 1 cm in diameter FEL beam can vaporize a hole THROUGH 1000 FEET OF SOLID STEEL.

    Now for those who don't know such a thing was before IMPOSSIBLE as when a Laser Beam would target any relatively thick metal plating as the Laser melted the steel or Iron or other metal the now liquid metal at the point of Laser impact would hinder additional Laser Melt and penetration of such thick metal plating or armor.

    So in essence it was like directing a magnifying glass focused beam of light from the sun at a 12 inch thick cube of ice and although using a magnifying glass to focus the Sun's light it would not be powerful enough to vaporize the water fast enough in order for the focused beam of solar light to continue to melt down further into the 12 inch cube of ice as liquid water would fill up the created hole.

    The same thing happens when you use a Laser that is not sufficiently powerful enough or hot enough to vaporize the actual METAL rather than to just melt it and have the liquid metal refill the hole created.

    Because of this if an FEL is supplied a massive amount of Electricity such an FEL beam has very little limits.

    So...the argument is whether or not to AUGMENT ....CVN-78 Gerald R. Ford...CVN-79 JFK....CVN-80 Enterprise....the Ford Class Carriers two Nuclear Fission A1B Reactors with the new and at one time Classified until it's existence was prematurely LEAKED....Extremely SMALL in size...Low Temp. Micro-Fusion Reactors as since these are both extremely High Output and extremely small as too not be an issue to be added to the Ford Class Carriers as if such a Reactor was the size of the relatively small in size A1B Fission Reactors of which TWO currently are designed and have area specifically designated for them within the Ford Class Carriers....then adding another Reactor would be most likely impossible....UNLESS it was much smaller as such Low Temp. Micro-Fusion Reactors are.

    One of the main major technological advancements which was impossible previously is SPLIT BEAMING TECHNOLOGY.

    U.S. Carriers and Cruisers FEL system along with several Networked IBM Supercomputers which will themselves be replaced by the just developed Naval R&D Targeting QUANTUM COMPUTER.....will be capable of vaporizing incoming .50 Cal Rounds....as such Computer Initiated and Determined Protection and FEL system initiation will be AUTOMATIC and was specifically Software Developed to defend against Small Fast Craft such as the Iranian Coastal Mini-Craft that employ speed and swarms and carrying anything from Missiles, .50 Cals...and even some are rigged as Suicide Explosive Impact Craft.

    AboveAlpha
     
  5. william walker

    william walker New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So how many ships are you going to have after you spend half your budget designing lazers which can pick out 50 cal rounds?

    After all that is the problem you can have all this new technology, but you will not have the hull numbers. The Chinese will go through you like a hot knife through ice cream if you don't have enough ships to escort your carriers. Will this lazer be able to take out mach 10 missiles designed to take out US carrier flight decks?
     
  6. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Before I reply I want you to know and understand that when I talk about such things as this I do so speaking of the facts and realities.

    I will NOT post in some U.S. Military Cheerleader Manner as some people will get caught up in their own ideology and post mistruths and lies just to say their side has the best or is the best.

    I WILL NOT DO THIS. I will only state the facts and let the chips fall where they may.

    #1. And this is a FACT....the Chinese Navy is not even close to being a THREAT to even a SINGLE U.S. Carrier Group.

    #2. The Chinese THEMSELVES have admitted as much and upon a visit to the United States PLA Chinese Army General Chen Bingde.

    Chen played down Chinese military advances on his trip, telling the audience of U.S. military officers and faculty at the National Defense University the People's Liberation Army lagged at least 20 years behind developed Western nations.

    "To be honest, I feel very sad after visiting (the United States), because I think, I feel and I know, how poor our equipments are and how underdeveloped we remain," Chen said.

    LINK...http://mobile.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE74I05720110519?irpc=932

    #3...The United States Navy started developing extremely accurate and advanced Anti-Missile Defense Systems on Aegis Cruisers DECADES in advance before China began developing it's Carrier Killer Missile and even right now all Carrier Groups have 2 Ticonderoga Class Cruisers equipped with SM-3 ABM/ASAT's which are capable of destroying ANY Chinese Missile or any countries Missile be it Hypersonic, Ballistic, Cruise, Stealth...etc.

    PROOF....LINK to OPERATION BURNT FROST....VIDEO of USN. Ticonderoga Class Cruiser Lake Erie using an SM-3 ABM/ASAT targets and destroys a specific PART of a failing satellite traveling at between 14,500 and 18,000 miles per hour at ORBITAL DISTANCE.

    LINK....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDqNjnUNUl8

    This shows how the SM-3 ABM/ASAT is capable of targeting and destroying something at a greater velocity and distance that any Chinese or Russian Missile would be or obtain.

    #4...FEL...Free Electron Laser....which currently is operational at a few Land Sites and a few Classified Ships....is quite possibly the greatest single advance in DIRECT ENERGY WEAPONS in HISTORY and when the first large scale FEL's aboard U.S. Nuclear Carriers and Ticonderoga Class Aegis Cruisers are deployed and the CVN-78 Gerald R. Ford will very soon start sea trials....IT WILL CHANGE THE FACE OF WARFARE.

    AboveAlpha
     
  7. william walker

    william walker New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,289
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Chinese military would eat a US carrier group for dinner if it was sitting around Tiawan. They would pull the escorts this way and that, giving them different looks and break through. This is why you need more escorts. Also the Chinese missile is a game changer, not in that it will always break through US missile defences, but that it takes one cruiser out of the battle to track it and shoot it down. I will say again, the US needs more escorts. As does the UK, France and India. Many things have been a great step forwards in warfare technology, but their effect could be limited because of cost and numbers. I.E Germany WW2.

    Just tactically thinking it through. The US carrier group has wonderful capabilities from the fixed wing AEW and EW aircraft, the F-18's and F-35's, ASW helicopters and so on. Then the 2 US cruisers, 6 destroyers and 2 submarines. In open water the US carriers are unbeatable. However in a more confined space where they are within reach of the Chinese airforce and missile capabilties, not just their navy I really think China could take out a number of US surface escorts and take out a flight deck. Which is what they want, to stop you being able to operate in the waters around China. I fear the US is losing the numbers needed to combat this Chinese tactic. Now if the US sends 2 carriers and one of your new America class LHA's then it would be a different story, then you have 6 submarines, 6 cruisers and 16-18 destroyers. You can then put the Chinese around and defend your major assets at the same time. So that is what I think. I have no doubt made a number of mistake and I am greatful for your posts which I learn from.
     
  8. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,614
    Likes Received:
    2,492
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You re missing the point of a railgun however.

    The very idea of a railgun is to through a projectile at high velocity and kill the target through kinetic force.

    For this very reason, they have an incredible potential for a CIWS or point defense, even ABM use.

    But for use in a ship as an offensive weapon, it is pretty much useless unless the target can be seriously damaged by a kinetic kill, and it is within direct line of sight.

    And if you think acceleration is less extreme, look into it more. The main reason they are kinetic is that nothing else can survive the extremes these projectiles go through. You average 155mm howitzer round is subjected to around 8,000 g's.

    A railgun projectile undergoes over 60,000 g's. The muzzle velocity of a 155mm is around 827 meters per second. For a railgun, try in excess of 1,700 meters per second.

    And at this time, the expected projectile weighs in at a whopping 26 lbs. No way you will even get enough explosives in that to make a decent handgrenade.

    The very idea of a railgun is uber-high velocity, uber-high reload times for kinetic kills. Parabolic trajectories are impossible, anything other then line of sight is impossible. It can only reach out and touch something it can directly see.

    These things are very flat trajectories. That makes them great for CIWS and Air Defense, but useless for "plunging fire".
     
  9. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    83
    U.S. Naval Battle Plans specific for let's say....repelling a Chinese Invasion of Taiwan....WOULD NEVER allow U.S. Carrier Battle Groups to come within any distance of the Chinese Air Force or Short Range PLA Missiles.

    THIS is what would happen.

    China has very little in the way of Military Force Projection and Chinese Military Thinking as far as Invading Taiwan would be to build up massive numbers of Chinese Troops and Weapons and do so as quickly and quietly as possible then all at once using very old and very slow Chinese Troop Transport Ships and even using Chinese Cruise Ships as well as flying as many Chinese Men and Material as possible and as quickly as possible from China to Taiwan....and their MAIN GOAL OF SUCH A PLAN is to build up such Forces on the Chinese Mainland Ports and in those Ships and in Aircraft all the while HOPING LIKE HELL the U.S. Military does not see this happening.

    Well....here is the problem with their plans.

    The United States Space-Command and various U.S. Satellite Capable Intel. Groups watch EVERY SQUARE CENTIMETER of Chinese Land and watch what goes on in EVERY CUBIC CENTIMETER of Chinese Coastal Waters and in Chinese Airspace.

    We do this using such a high level of Satellite Technological Detection and Scanning Capabilities if you were to know the extent of it as well the extent of the NSA's monitoring AND RECORDING of EVERY SINGLE ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATION AND TRANSMISSION...you HEAD would explode!!! I know mine does just thinking about it.

    It is NOT POSSIBLE....UNLESS we allowed them to....for China to build up such Troop Strength necessary to invade Taiwan without our knowing about it well in advance of any invasion.

    OK....now the very MOMENT such troop buildups happened we would be on the phone telling China to KNOCK IT OFF!! But let's say they continued even after a warning.....what would the U.S. do first?

    The FIRST thing the U.S. would do after asking China to stop such a buildup several times and after such requests or demands went unheeded the United States would IMMEDIATELY stop all Loan Payments to China and at the same time also refuse to pay for or allow any Chinese Shipments of Cheap Walmart Goods which have ZERO Strategic Importance or necessity for the United States but for China???

    Well...the Chinese Economy has almost completely been developed and constructed AND DEPENDENT upon the export to the United States of Cheap Goods. The U.S. could in a matter of a WEEK bring the Chinese Economy TO IT'S KNEES by simply telling China that until China stopped such a Troop and Weapons System Buildup prior to China's intent to invade Taiwan....the United States would cease all Loan Payments, reject all ships at or coming into American Ports and as well the U.S. would make CERTAIN any Nation that did business with the $17.7 TRILLION U.S. Economy which is 3 TIMES a larger economy than China's....any Nation that counted upon the U.S. Economy would be told to either stop all trade with China or such a Nation would no be allowed access to the U.S. Economy.

    Now that ALONE is more than enough reason for China not to attempt any invasion of Taiwan....but let's say some maniac in China actually decided to invade Taiwan.

    At the point the United States Leadership determined to be a THRESHOLD POINT where at that POINT and LINE IS CROSSED by China the U.S. Military would attack and destroy China's Military Capability to invade Taiwan.

    The U.S. Military works as an INTEGRATED SERVICE OPERATIONAL BATTLE PLANNED FORCE.

    This means that U.S. Carrier Groups would NEVER be allowed to be anywhere near a distance where China could easily attack such Carrier Groups as U.S. Carrier Based Aircraft and U.S. Missile Systems can operate and attack China and Chinese Forces from a MUCH GREATER DISTANCE....basically unlimited with mid-air refueling.

    U.S. Ar Force Stealth Bombers and F/A-22's which as both Fighters and Attack Bombers could penetrate deep into Chinese Territory and easily destroy any and all Land, Sea or Air targets well before they were capable of being launched or being detected.

    Even if the Chinese were able to get off a few Carrier Killer Missiles such Missiles would NEVER make it through Carrier Missile Defenses and when the FEL...Free Electron Laser System is fully deployed NOTHING will be capable of penetrating Carrier Defenses and that includes any enemy Sub Force or Torpedo.

    I was a part of providing analysis and developing contingency plans specific to a MASS CHINESE AIRCRAFT ATTACK upon USN. Carrier Groups....and this analysis took into account such attacks upon 1 Carrier Group, 2 Carrier Groups and all the way up to 5 Carrier Groups....and we did NOT take U.S. Air Force...U.S. Space Command....or OTHER Classified U.S. Military Capabilities which WOULD be employed in addition to what is known publicly to be used by the U.S. Militarily.

    In EVERY SCENARIO....and such scenarios used the extremely unlikely and I think outright IMPOSSIBLE scenario that the PLN and PLA were able to get all Chinese Troop Transports 75% of the way at the VERY LEAST to Taiwan Shores and as well we DID NOT take into account VERY GOOD AND VERY LETHAL TAIWANESE MILITARY CAPABILITIES....in every scenario not ONE....NOT ONE....U.S. Navy Ship was lost and in the 5 Navy Carrier Scenario...and remember such contingency plans did not take into account the use of the U.S. Air Force as in such a conflict the U.S. Air Force would ABSOLUTELY BE USED...but these contingency plans were specific to determine a USN. Carrier Group and a variety of different numbers of USN. Carrier Groups working by them self or working with other USN. Carriers and Support Ships to see JUST HOW WELL a Carrier Group or Multiple Carrier Groups could handle this Chinese Invasion of Taiwan by themselves as this scenario and contingency plans are done as it is possible even if it is unlikely in the extreme .00000137% Probability....that such a Carrier Group or U.S. Carrier Groups would have to fight such a battle without aid from other U.S. Military Services.

    We determined that ONE U.S. CARRIER GROUP that contained at least ONE SEAWOLF OR VIRGINIA ATTACK SUB....along with other Los Angeles Attack Subs....was capable of operating outside the operating distance of the Chinese Air Force and too far outside the range necessary for China to launch a multitude of Chinese Surface to Sea and Air to Sea Missiles in the hopes China could overwhelm USN. Carrier Defenses.

    We determined that ONE SINGLE USN. CARRIER GROUP was entirely capable of sustaining virtually unlimited continuous Military Operations against Chinese Targets as the USN.'s SUPERHORNETS which are the primary Fighter and attack aircraft aboard U.S. Carriers along with USN. AWAC's and USN. Mid-Air Refueling as well as superior U.S. Technology specific to targeting and ESPECIALLY Very Advanced Technology USN. Electronic Warfare Techniques ans HARM Anti-Radiation Missiles which lock in on an Enemy's Radar and ride in the enemies own Radar Broadcast straight on down to target.

    I could go on a great deal longer and I will just talk about one last thing....SEAWOLF or VIRGINIA CLASS SUBS. Now we only have a few Seawolfs as they are the very best and capable Attack Subs in the world and as they were designed to attack and destroy Multiple...VERY QUIET....Soviet Nuclear Missile Subs....a Seawolf is capable ON IT'S OWN....of tracking and destroying a massive number of enemy ships and subs.

    Against such a Sub be it Seawolf or Virginia Class or even the older but STILL vastly more superior than any Sub the Chinese have....Los Angeles Class Sub....Chinese Submarine Warfare against an American Carrier Battle Group or against another American USN. Sub....is like a 10 year old LITTLE LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER standing AT BAT against NOLAN RYAN!!

    We determined even without the support of other U.S. Military Forces even ONE U.S. Carrier Group was capable of either completely destroying or at the very least repelling a Chinese Invasion of Taiwan.

    China is AWARE of this and that is why China is attempting to develop Carrier Killer Missiles in NUMBERS....but the problem for the Chinese is that U.S. Carrier Groups can operate OUTSIDE the operational distance of such Missiles and possible incoming aircraft....and as well we don't even have to shoot such Missiles down as the USN. is perfectly capable of all on their own using Anti-Guidance Electronic Warfare Active Countermeasures...BURN OUT the internal guidance systems of such Chinese Missiles,

    AboveAlpha
     
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,614
    Likes Received:
    2,492
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    From what I have seen, most plans call for the group to be to the East of Taiwan. This way it can support the islands, yet still be out of direct range of China.

    Personally, I seriously doubt that China will ever invade Taiwan. They have largely been getting what they want through Finlandization.
     
  11. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I agree that China will not invade Taiwan.

    However there are still a few very old Chinese Maoist Holdovers still existing and exerting a great deal of influence within the Chinese Communist Party Leadership and these Chinese are SPECIFICALLY RESPONSIBLE for the continued use and application of the most HATED by both the PLA and PLN Leadership as well as HATED by any Chinese Military Personal who happen to have an IQ above 80.....Chinese Peoples Revolutionary Ideology Division.

    These IDEOLOGY OFFICERS which several are placed on every Chinese Ship....within the PLA's every single barracks....and through out the Chinese Air Force but to a much lessor extent there....are responsible for much STUPIDITY as they express the will and ideology of these now very old Maoist Communist Party Leaders.

    The actual Admirals and Generals of the Chinese Military HATE THEIR GUTS!!!!

    They are like a Chinese version of the Nazi Gestapo and even a General has to worry that some Major might say something to bring that Generals loyalty into question.

    The United States made one of the best decisions several years back specific to becoming familiar and their also becoming familiar with our Military...as we invited High Ranking Chinese Military Leaders to attend, watch and analyse several major U.S. Military War Games involving massive U.S. Naval Forces out of Norfolk and several other War Games involving Marines, Air Force and the U.S. Army.

    Now the actual NON-IDEOLOGY specific Chinese Leadership have a great deal of respect for U.S. Military Forces and capabilities even though they must endure endless diatribes as the Communist Parties Ideology Division continuously attempts to preach the Chinese Infinitely Capable Military Superiority over U.S. and Japanese Forces as they show CGI laden films to Sailors and Troops as CGI Chinese Ships and Tanks easily destroy the U.S. Imperialist Forces and as well mass rallies very much like those in Nazi Germany that whip the GRUNT LEVEL Soldiers and Sailors into an ideologically driven frenzy.

    Now this SCARES THE HELL OUT OF THE ACTUAL CHINESE MILITARY LEADERSHIP....as being professional Military Officers understand the quickest and shortest path to defeat is to underestimate ones enemy....and in the opinion of Chinese General Chen Bingde....the LEVEL of underestimation of U.S. Military capability which has been hammered into the minds of the average Sailor, airman and soldier in the Chinese Military has reached IDIOTIC PROPORTIONS.

    The U.S. Military's DIA had a plan and implemented this plan quite a few years ago which probably resulted in stopping the Chinese Invasion of Taiwan.

    Because of this DIA Plan Congress got VERY upset and I will explain why.

    The DIA with the help of another 3 letter U.S. Intel. Group made a determination that early in the 2000's that UNLESS Chinese Military Leaders were INFORMED in a manner that would leave them NO DOUBT that any attempted Invasion of Taiwan would result in the complete and utter destruction of all Chinese Forces involved in the Invasion as well as the total destruction of all Chinese Surface Ships and Subs in the Pacific as well as the unrestricted Bombing by the U.S. Air Force of all Chinese Targets and Bases used in the invasion or supporting such an invasion.

    Now it took some time to set this up but in the second half of the 2000's the Chinese Military Leadership was invited as I stated to watch U.S. Military War Games and the capability and professionalism and extremely high level of Service Integration during a Battle as well as the Extremely High Level of Technology existing in all U.S. Military specific Weapons Systems....which the Chinese Generals and Admirals expected but never until that point ever realized JUST HOW far behind China was Militarily to the United States.

    But the DIA KNEW that even if the Chinese Military Leadership such as General Chen Bingde went back to China and explained the disparity between Military Forces this would still not be enough to stop what was thought to be an inevitable Chinese Invasion of Taiwan.

    So...we came up with a plan....which P!$$ED OFF Congress to no end and after this they even passed a NEW LAW!!! LOL!!!

    After all the major East Coast War Games were over and the Chinese Military Leadership was to fly out to California after a few stops here and there....we grabbed a few KNOWN AND PRACTICAL Chinese Military Leaders and we brought them to a very secret U.S. Base.....AND WE JUST....SHOWED THEM SOMETHING.

    When Congress found out we did this they passes a new law to be stronger than the old law that Another Nations Military Leadership can NOT be allowed entry into what can only be described as an extremely sensitive U.S. Base specific for the development and testing of High Order Ultra-High Technology Weapon Systems.

    When the Chinese Generals and Admirals were allowed in and we let them just see....THEY GOT SCARED.

    The plan had the effect on them we thought it would and shortly after all High Level Chinese Leaders flew back to China as QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE as at that point....THEY KNEW....any Chinese Military Invasion of Taiwan would become much...much more than just a DISASTER for China.

    If we had not thought to invite a few of the Chinese Ideology Officers to go along with the Higher Chinese Military Leadership the Chinese Communist Party would have not believed their own Generals as even General Chen was accused by the Maoists of LYING about U.S. Military Capability as they did not believe him and only did believe when their own IDIOT Ideology Officers confirmed what was being told to them was true.

    Lesson Learned?

    An Enemy will be less likely to attack IF they are well aware of YOUR Military capabilities.

    AboveAlpha
     
  12. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    526
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The web of treaties, mutual protection pacts, ancestoral regional animosities, economic dependencies, etc. that surround Red China makes it impossible for them to even engage tiny Viet Nam in military aggressions beyond indecisive border disputes. The one possible large power in the region they might be tempted to engage is India, and that is a very remote possibility.
     
  13. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    83
    You know I am glad you brought this up because RIGHT NOW...Vietnam is BEGGING US to come back and rebuild several Vietnam War Era U.S. Bases as Vietnam is expressing an extreme desire to form a Defense Pact with the United States to counter China as Vietnam and China have fought several vicious wars among them the 1979 Chinese Invasion of Vietnam.

    AboveAlpha
     
  14. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Cool story, brah.

    I have the following quetions:
    1)Was the weather fine that day? It seems yes.
    2)What was the distance to that drone? I guess using a classic mashinegun would be a cheaper way.
    3)How much does that fancy toy cost?
    4)Do you find that the drone painted in black was just an amusing coinsedence?
    5)How much time it took to shot it down? Minute? Twenty seconds? Ten seconds?
     
  15. Strasser

    Strasser Banned

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    Messages:
    4,219
    Likes Received:
    526
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They're desperate to acquire hardware; they have around 16 subs now and looking for more. India is also wanting to beef up its Navy.
     
  16. xAWACr

    xAWACr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Relevant only if you assume the thing will only operate in the visible spectrum. Go back and re-read your wiki article and then think about it.

    Maybe. But then it was a TEST of a PROTOTYPE. Do you comprehend what that means?

    Relevant only if you think we can't afford it.

    Didn't look black to me. It appeared dark in contrast to the bright sky, but that is a common photographic effect.

    About 5 seconds until the first visible flames appeared, by my count. But you miss the larger point, which is that your sweeping generalization that lasers are useless in atmosphere is demonstrably bullsh*t.
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,614
    Likes Received:
    2,492
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It is actually much more then that.

    One thing that both Vietnam and the Philippines have seen is that when the US is asked to leave, it leaves. When North and South Vietnam signed the Paris Peace Accords, the US quietly left, it did not try to carry on the conflict. Of course, we also washed our hands when South Vietnam did fall, but we also did not come running in to try and "take revenge" or anything like that.

    And the same with the Philippines. When asked to leave, we simply packed up and left.

    For well over a decade the West Pacific was a pretty peaceful place, but over the last several years countries in that region have been looking in alarm at the rapid growth of China. And not just as a military power, but in it's antagonism and arrogance, and the way it is trying to throw it's weight around and force smaller countries to do what it wants them to do.

    And when they look around the world, the only real options is to either look to the US for help, or Russia. And Russia has never been known as a "Naval Power", which would be of little help to them.

    If anything, the rise in aggressiveness by China is making the US even more friends in the region.
     
  18. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    That is a good advice, which you should keep for yourself. Might as well advice you to refresh your physics course, if you ever had one.
    [​IMG]


    Yeah. There is still some hope for you that this shiт won't enter service.

    Well, you can waste your money whatever way you desire. Keep buying 7 billion$ destroyers, 2 billion$ bombers, 300 billion$ fighters or lasers for that matter. It is not like I am against it. In fact it is visa versa

    Whatever. It is not like you can prove it wasn't.


    Who told you, that they showed you this drone the moment they turned the laser on? They might as well spend several minutes burning it and show you last seconds in the video.
    No need to be so butthurt, sweete. Lasers are useless because there are cheaper and more effective ways to deal with the target.
    Nevertheless, would love them to try doing something like that with mach 4 anti-ship missile flying several meters above ocean's surface with all effects attached.
     
  19. xAWACr

    xAWACr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I have. Here's a hint: 'The free-electron laser has the widest frequency range of any laser type, and can be widely tunable, currently ranging in wavelength from microwaves, through terahertz radiation and infrared, to the visible spectrum, ultraviolet, and X-ray.'
     
  20. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    So? The great physist in you is not aware that our atmosphere more or less absorbs all electro-magnetic radiation of all wavelengths, except radiowaves and several windows in IR?

    Besides, my original comment mostly refered to water vapor over the ocean.

    Moreover, unlike kinetic weapons, it is not capable of changing anti-ship missile flight direction. Incoming anti-ship missile will look like a cone from the laser pov. Even if your burn it's radar, you'll still have a hard and long time burning trough it's armored warhead. The missile is highly likely to hit the ship due to it's enourmos kinetic energy even if you "shot it down".

    In other words, laser is a merely close-range weapon, which will have a hard time shooting everything, except dark-colored target drones perhaps.
     
  21. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    20,847
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't think the US Navy is much worried about China's "carrier killer" ballistic missile unless its carrying nukes.
     
  22. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    12,614
    Likes Received:
    2,492
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    A lot of us in the ABM field actually worry that there is no such thing as a DF-21D, and this is all a smokescreen to try and confuse matters for if they were to ever launch a nuke at one of our carrier groups.

    I have gone into detail many times about the problems the theoretical DF-21D would have, like locating not only the fleet but the actual carrier with enough precision to guide in any kind of missile. In guiding in a missile traveling at MACH 10+ that even with GPS navigation still has a CEP of 50 meters.

    Trying to hit a flight deck only 76 meters wide. Even taking into account that this thing can locate, track, and guide in on a carrier it is at best a 50-50 chance it would hit even if it was parked at anchor and did not move a single inch since the missile launched.

    Add in the fact it is going to be twisting and turning, changing speed as every cruiser and destroyer is throwing up a ton of not only ECM but SM-2 and SM-3 missiles and now even in a picture-perfect launch scenario, I think a 5% chance of a hit is still being very generous.

    Unless once again there is no such thing as a DF-21D, and it is really a DF-21C with a nuke on board. Then it really does not matter, the nuke will effectively kill it if it lands within a couple of miles.
     
  23. xAWACr

    xAWACr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Bullsh*t. If that were the case, sunlight wouldn't be able to penetrate the atmosphere either. And microwave links have been the basis for the entire global telecommunications system for years.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_transmission

    If we were talking about a stationary target, that would be true, but we're not. The hypothetical target is moving at 20 to 30 kts/hr, maybe more. That means that whether or not the missile hits depends on how far away it is when it loses guidance; the further away, the less chance of a hit. And we don't have to 'burn' the radar, jamming it will do fine.

    Color makes no difference to microwaves. I'll let you get back to thinking about the X-Ray part.
     
  24. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    21,346
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    0
    In order for China to successfully attack a USN ship with a ballistic missile, it must first detect the ship, identify it, acquire a precise enough measurement of its location that a missile can be launched at it, and then provide mid-course updates to the missile. The last stage is getting the warhead to lock onto and home in on the ship.

    The best way to achieve this is through BAMS or Broad Area Maritime Surveillance unmanned aircraft. They can operate, at very long ranges at altitudes above 65,000', patrolling large grids of the Pacific looking for fleet movements. Once a target is identified and an engagement is established, electro-optical sensors can steer a guided missile right on to a moving carrier deck.

    Very feasible scenario..and China is investing heavily in drone technology. They have the 2nd largest military drone fleet on the planet, 2nd only to the U.S.

    A counter-measure for this type of scenario is of course, to shoot the drone down or at least damage it's capabilities...and one way to achieve this is on-board lasers. Of course China's intent is to swarm an area with drones, overwhelm their enemy...if just one drone survives, the carrier is toast....

    this isn't science fiction...

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...designed-to-attack-american-aircraft-carriers

    I'd say the U.S. Navy should be worried...very worried.

     
  25. KGB agent

    KGB agent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    3,032
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Obviously an excaption for visible specter. Thought that was obvious.

    Also, you have sort of reading comprehension problems?

    Microwave transmission refers to the technology of transmitting information or energy by the use of radio waves whose wavelengths are conveniently measured in small numbers of centimetre; these are called microwaves.

    Sorry, I've mentioned that.

    That was a fail, Mr.Smartаss :wink:



    The weapon might as well move at 4000 km/h. That is 1111 m/s. Let's model Nimitz-class vs such missile, shot down by laser.
    Anti-ship missiles usually aim at the center of the target. Nimitz length is 332 m. In other words, missile would hit the ship if it manages to get to the ship before the ship pass 166 meters. The missile
    Approximate direct visual range from laser-equipped Burke to missile, flying 10 meters above ocean surface, would be 16 kilometers. That is 16000 meters.
    Even IF we assume laser attacks the missile's the moment it was detected ( and it won't, CICS requires some time to respond), the carrier will have only 9 seconds to escape (taking into account it took, lets imagine,5 seconds, despite the missile's body is waaay more solid). Now, lets see what distance the Nimitz on it's maximal speed will cover. It's maximum speed is 30 knots=56 km/h=15,5m/s.
    15,5*9=139,5 meters < 166.
    The answer is - no, the missile will still hit it's target.
    I've meant the overall missile structure.
    Usually, starting with it's head, anti-ship missile consists of a rada, warhead, fuel reserves, engines and , finally, controls. All that is surrounded with missile's body.
    Radar and guidance systems will be the first to be destroyed, after laser burns through missile's body.





    X-Ray is actively absorbed by our atmosphere. So no, still direct visual range only.
     

Share This Page