The verse is long. Below is a partial look. Feel free to look it up for the whole sorted affair. Numbers 5:11-31 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
Any doctor worth their degree would be able to tell that a patient's life is endangered. There are hundreds of cases where a patient's life is threatened by complications in a pregnancy. There are those in this country who want it made illegal to save them. A small, but very vocal minority wants abortion banned even to protect a woman's life. They used to have laws like that in Ireland, but they changed them after doctors let a woman die, despite knowing with 100% certainty for hours that she would die if the pregnancy wasnt terminated.
What are your views on abortion? Good question. My personal views are complicated, but I'll try to keep it as simple as possible. First, I'm Pro-Choice, because as an American, to have choices is synonymous with "freedom," a concept that's important to me. I am increasingly uncomfortable with planned abortions later in pregnancies. R v W set the limit at around 6 months, I believe, & unless the fetus has some dramatically horrid disease, disability, or life-threatening condition, I don't favor abortion beyond six months. I am open to limiting abortions at 5 months except in conditions threatening the future life of the baby is in play. But I support complete freedom of access to abortion thru 5 months. One reason I'm comfortable with abortions to that point, is that Near Death Experiencers report that they learned that they picked their own parents before being born on Earth. That means mothers the souls of their future children have an agreement before conception. But either party has the unquestioned right to cancel that agreement, even temporarily, until birth. If the soul of the new child cancels, it's called a miscarriage. If the mother cancels it's called an abortion. Even after one or the other cancels, they are free to continue the agreement in another pregnancy later. The soul is the core of any life, but the soul is not damaged by miscarriage or abortion. It is immortal, & free to continue its plans as it sees fit. I'm sorry to see abortion become such a hot political issue. Pro-Choice supporters don't try to inflict abortion onto anyone who doesn't want one. So called Pro-Life supporters DO inflict their views over everyone they can, which returns to one thing that I regard as important--personal freedoms. If abortions are outlawed again, as they were up through the 1950s, it won't stop abortions, but it will have a horrid impact on the lives of young women who get caught having one. Incarceration might be the least traumatic of the possible repercussions. It certainly won't be pretty. I don't want my daughter, or my nieces, or my friend's daughters, or any female in that situation to have their lives ruined by the law simply because they fell victim to normal sexual desires. That's nuts. No one deserves that.
Any doctor worth their salt knows if you show up in the ER with a fence post impelled in your belly your life is in danger. That does not make the qualified to remove it.
A woman has the right to choose to get an abortion with no limitations. 13 vote(s) 76.5% Abortion should be illegal after the first trimester 4 vote(s) 23.5%
You realize that there is a major difference between going through a miscarriage and having a fence post stuck through your stomach right? We are talking about OB/GYN's not ER doctors. An OB/GYN is specifically trained in caring for pregnant patients, and these are the doctors. The doctors in ireland I was referring to knew with 100% certainty that the patient who died would die uinless they terminated the pregnancy, and that there was no way to save the child. They chose to let her die instead of doing their jobs because of Ireland's laws which make abortion illegal in all cases (laws which were overturned following this MURDER) There are those in the US who want these same laws passed here, which make it a crime to terminate a pregnance under any circumstances even if it's a 100% certainty that the patient will die without it.
It is rather disgusting that there are people who seriously support the illegalisation of abortion. Such a position only belongs in a primitive society guided by superstition and whim and a society where the highest value is altruism and anti-individualism. Opposing it is one thing, but wishing to make that irrational position law is very gross.
So you calling double homicide of a pregnant woman in some places primitive and guided by superstition?
No, I don't think it should, but I would be prepare to grant consensually and willingly pregnant women special protection by the law.
Because no one has the right to terminate a willingly pregnant woman's pregnancy against her will. If you kill a pregnant woman, you should be charged for both murder and unconsensual termination of pregnancy.
It is and nothing I have said contradicts that. Look, I would advice you to formulate coherent and straight-forward arguments instead of cryptic questions designed to push me into a corner from where you can dishonestly cherry-pick and distort my position. What you are trying to do here is so transparent and it is not working.
So if you say it is a blob of tissue, it doesn't make sense for special protection for pregnant women. Of course I am being transparent, your argument is flawed if you say it's primitive and superstitious.
I just explained how it does. Put your Bible down, scroll up and reread what I said. Read it again, breathe out and think about what you just read. Then come back with an actual response and actual wuestions that are not just childish "gotchas". It is not.
My Bible has nothing to do with it, my 24 year old daughter does.. No you're the one who says/imply's: A fetus is just a blob of tissue But... We need special protection for pregnant women against homicide.
It very much does since the only reason you oppose abortion is "because God said so." That is both superstitous and whimsical and also rather second-handed. Your position on abortion is not guided by your reason and your intellect. Your daughter has nothing to do with this, so please leave your emotional arguments out of this conversation. It is a blob of tissue, yes. But, that is not at all the basis of my argument and I never really used that phrase in any of my posts. You were the one who brought it up. Yes. In the same way the law protects everyone from having any other medical procedure performed on them against their will.
I already have explained to you why there are additional charges if one kills a pregnant woman. The UVVA (Unborn Victims of Violence Act) provides further charges for taking away a woman's right to choice ( sound familiar?) by killing her fetus . It does NOT make the fetus a legal person. That Act did NOT change what a fetus is. Why didn't you take my advice and research the UVVA? Or don't you really want to know the facts?
No but terminating a pregnancy which is in the middle of a miscarriage is still considered an abortion, and as such was illegal under ireland's laws and would be illegal if such laws were passed here
You said in your OP, "In fact I believe that the term abortion should be limited to the termination of a viable pregnancy any pregnancy that is not viable where the fetus will not survive should not be considered abortion." You are now changing your position by calling a miscarried baby an aborted baby.
Wrong. A fetus is neither an individual nor a human since it lacks personhood and can thus not be granted the same legal status as the pregnant woman. The pregnant mother is an individual and accordingly, she has the right to excerise all the rights to her bodily autonomoy. Organism, yes. But, bacteria, skin cells and cencer cells are organisms too.
My view is that the fetus is like a wart or mole or any other unwanted growth somebody has on their own body. The person under discussion should have complete autonomy to do whatever they want with their own body until and unless the unwanted growth comes out and starts crying. Period, end of the discussion
