Funny, I think that amendment states that: "All persons born ..., and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens..." That simply means that persons born here are citizens. NOW; It goes on to say: "...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Notice they said "person" and not "citizen". To me this means that any person, be he born or unborn, shall not be deprived of life by any state.
Oh now with the closed minded argument. What I find funny is that you complain that I am closed minded, but defend every abortion that has ever been performed. Don't you think there are some that should have been disallowed? I notice you did not post any link, but yet you find room to complain about the source of mine? The fact is I am not a wealthy person so no I don't give to charities very often. So equally, how much money have you given to charity lately, or are you a hypocrite? You want to fling insults at me by calling me a sad little person only because you have lost the argument. I think people who find joy in expressing their passion for promoting policies which end up in the deaths of little children are the truly sad little people.
Post what ever you want, I've probably seen worse . .however they don't exact an emotional response from me because I have done the research on the situation and emotions should be kept out of debating, especially anger .. once you get angry you have lost. Again, you have yet to show/prove that the fetus prior to 24 weeks is sentient, and as pro-lifers keep telling us how the fetus looks is not a reason for (or against) abortion. The second trimester (13-28 weeks) the fetus has immature lungs and an incomplete nervous system until around week 27, while a few may survive prior to the 24 week mark it will only be done through intense medical care and will in most cases result in disabilities ranging from severe to minimal. Only 7% of fetuses born prior to week 24 survive, the youngest ever surviving fetus is James Elgin Gill, born at 21 weeks & 5 Days. So if you and other pro-lifers were more active in getting the viability time reduced to say 21 weeks then I suspect you would have a far greater support than an blanket ban.
Like you really need to prove that atrocities are being committed in abortion mills around the nation.
More assumptions .. please show me where I say I defend every abortion that has ever been performed. Do I think that there are some that should have been disallowed, I have no idea as I don't know the circumstances of each individual case . .do you. Neither am I a wealthy person, yet I find a small amount to support one or two charities, such as "Save the Children". no doubt you will not believe that but that is your problem not mine. Hey you want to dish it out then you got to expect it back .. try debating from a non aggressive stance and you will find I will debate your points and not you, but while you are overtly aggressive towards me I will fight fire with fire. In order to lose an argument there has to be one, you haven't given anything to argue about, though I would prefer a debate rather than an argument .. which ever is up to you. You argue your points from a closed perspective, you don't bother to actually read the points raised against your opinion you just dismiss them .. I on the other hand, read every link posted by pro-lifers, I then find alternative opinions in order to show an opposing viewpoint, with what ever evidence is relevant to that point. You want to debate like an adult, then fine, but when you act like a petulant child I will treat you as one.
Enough with me just randomly throwing out some more random ad-hominem godwin's laws arguements against Obama. Here's why he's like Hitler, seriously, just pay some very close attention to what I'm saying. 1-somebody who promises prosperity and helping people too do better during a time of economic crisis 2-somebody who promises and gives people healthcare during the tough times 3-somebody who uses his charisma and his helping of other people during the times of crisis to get loyalty from the population 4-and, yet, beneath of all that, they support evil genocidal acts I know several pro-choice people, including my teachers, family members, etc. I can understand their position, at least to a certain extent, but some pro-abortion people are just go radically pro abortion, such as Obama, that they are nothing short of being comparable to Hitler or Stalin or, at the very least, being labeled amongst the many infamous people in this world. Oh, really, Fugazi? Woman's rights to control their bodies, OK, fine, I can understand why early term abortions would be OK, and hey, maybe even for the sake of some more arguement, maybe even second term abortions, but freaking partial birth abortions, even in the earliest of terms, and, even in the latest of terms, are a "woman's right to choose". Anybody who supports partial birth abortions, and hey, regardless of the term involved in that, even if it's an early term abortion, the baby's body is already mostly outside of the mother's body. That's why I'm just so sickened by the Casey Anthony Trial and the Sandy Hook event being turned into these big national tradgeies and news stories that hypocritical Obama cries about (ie, sandy hook), and that the media is running all of these big media circuses filled with hype about (the casey anthony trial), while nobody cares about thousands/millions of fully developed babies. Obama is just like Hitler. Obama is also nothing more than one big hypocrite, too, also. And I don't care if he fixes our economic problems and our universal healthcare debate/issue, Hitler did those stuff too. And don't give that whole entire life of the mother excuse. Partial birth abortions are NOT nessecary for the life of the mother. You just want to admit that you're wrong. Doesn't that baby look fully developed?
Well see there you have it. You are an adult, I am a petulant child. Spank me. Oh the hypocisy. Slinging insults is really adult like behavior. What you call overtly aggressive I call passionate. Which argument would you most like to focus on? How about "when does life begin?" Did you ever tell me how many weeks along do we become human? I feel it is at conception. And how many weeks along is it okay to have and abortion?
One thing that I absolutley hate is pro-abortion political correctness. My sister is a nurse that works at a medical facility/hospital, and they do abortions over there. Some pro-life guy was ranting about how much he hates abortion, and then, at dinnertime, she told the table about that guy at work that she thinks, "he should just ****", because according to her, he's offending people. And yet pro choice people can rant all they want and nobody else cares. Excuse the pro-lifers for having an opinion in this country. Excuse me for having an opinion in this country. If it's wrong to have an opinion in America, well then tell me so. What is this like Nazi Germany or Stalinism, where there's no freedom of speech whatsoever??? I love to argue with other people about my beliefs. Political correctness is stupid.
Sorry I don't indulge in fantasies, find someone who is interested. Nope it isn't, but as I said you sling them I'll return the favour. I fight fire with fire. You can be passionate about something without being aggressive, your posts are overtly aggressive. I've already answered this question, but in case you have forgotten .. life begins at conception, though some would say life is actually before that, but I understood what you were alluding to. You didn't ask me that question, but we are human from the start. As do I Well in my opinion, and that of the majority of the medical & legal professions, anything upto 24 weeks on an elective basis, after 24 weeks only for medical reasons .. Though the 24 week mark to me may be a little high, given that fetuses have survived before that point, so I would say that 21 weeks would be a better limit. However I will always speak against a total ban on abortion, you see you will never find any post by me that advocates post 24 week elective abortions. In my opinion a woman has plenty of time to decide whether she wants to keep the pregnancy going or not prior to that 24 week mark, but that is my personal opinion only. I consider myself pro-choice upto the point that the fetus can be viable, then in my opinion the fetus deserves the rights accorded to an independent sentient person. The pro-choice people are a variety, some want no legislation against abortion at anytime during a pregnancy, some are like me who favour early term abortions being the right of the woman, but later term abortions should only be allowed for medical reasons .. ie death of the mother or problems incompatible with life for the fetus. I get a load of rubbish from pro-lifers because I refuse to use "baby" or "child" for a fetus, simple reason is that they are not the correct terms and I find the people who use them do so for effect only. Now see, isn't the latter part of this a far better way to have a debate .. I respect your position, why can't you respect mine.
While you are entitled to you opinion, I am not obligated to respect it. For reasons I have already expressed, having an abortion at anytime because it is an inconvenience to the mother is in my mind murder. I know that when people who are expecting find out they are pregnant they are quick to announce they are having a baby. Unless it is an unintended pregnancy, then it becomes an intruder in the woman's womb, an inconsequential lump of flesh. Declining moral values of our society does not in fact make abortion moral in anyway. People should re-evaluate their morals if they think it is okay to kill your own offspring in utero for any reason.
You think morals are declining because women have abortions??? Well, they been having them for thousands of years so you'll have to blame moral decline on something besides women....
Can we also ignore the First Amendment and ban Religion in the United States? Can we confiscate all of the firearms and ignore the Second Amendment. How about abolishing trials by jury and due process of the law. Let's take the Right to Vote away from women. If the Constitution doesn't matter then why not abandon it completely and become a nation like Hitler's Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia? People should be careful about what they propose. BTW We don't actually know if former President Bush actually made that statement cited but as the President he certianly showed that he didn't care very much about the US Constitution by his actions.
Then do not expect me to respect yours. They do, but this is nothing more than an informal expression, just like someone saying "this is your baby now" when handing over a project, it certainly doesn't mean you are handing over a real baby. Define declining moral values, are you saying that in the past moral values were better, like rape within marriage not being illegal, like where woman had little rights. I can't believe anyone with any sense would want to return to those times. Abortion has been around for centuries, best find another scape goat for your assumptions.
I will boldly and shamelessly and proudly admit that I support the Republicans subverting the Constitution. When you are dealing with sick twisted and deranged people who see nothing wrong with a newborn baby, with it's arms and legs and it's entire fully grown and developed sentinent, concious, and pain feeling body, dangling outside of it's mother's body, kicking their arms and their legs around, having their brains sucked out under the excuse that their entire body is not fully out of his/her/ mother yet, AKA, also known as, in other words, a partial birth abortion, sickos like that do not deserve honesty at all. Abortion in the womb is one thing. Abortion outside of the womb is not an abortion at all. Accusing pro lifers of sexism against women. It's only sexism when men do it, first of all. That's society's new double standards. Women can do things a, b, and x, and nobody cares. If men do those very same things, people would call them misogynists and sexists and unfair to women's rights, etc. The amazing athiest has taught me this amazing truth-radical feminists have created lots of double standards in our society. Thank you, TJ!!! And, besides, with these issues of honesty, finding loopholes around an issue and subverting the USA's constitution isn't directly lying to somebody. And, even if that was, it would be very justified. We're not talking about a minor disagreement over a tax dispute over here, dude. We're talking about newborn full term babies being aborted by partial birth abortion (barack obama just shrugged his shoulders about that one-don't give me that life of the mother nonsense either too-those horrible procedures are not nessecary to save the mother's life, and, hey, even if they were, obama never said "i want the federal government to ban all partial birth abortions, with the exception of the mother's life or her health".) guess what obama said, "ahh, well, that's just up to the states". Sure, OK. Maybe Obama is just a little bit/somewhat ignorant about the issue of partial birth abortions and the mother's health or her life. And, hey, even if he was very ignorant about that, at least he knows that elective partial birth abortions should be allowed to have states ban them. But that's not enough. You're just going 2 shrug your shoulders about the lives of newborn babies, obama? Why not ban all elective partial birth abortions nationwide? Obama doesn't really care about that, however. I know many pro choice people. Many of my teachers and my family members are pro choice. And while I diagree with them totally, I can at the very least understand them. on the other hand, however, all of these radical pro abortion people, however, are sick deranged lunatics. My conclusion is just this-I support the actions of Republicans that find loopholes to restrict abortions as much as possible. How dare Obama cry during his speech. What a hypocrite. I don't feel that the crying was umasculine/unmanly at all. I found that it was very hypocritical. I was not moved by Obama crying at all.
You are a little out of date on your info. I guess somebody forgot to tell you that PBA's have been illegal for some time now. So your hysteria on that subject is a little misplaced.
You have become a nay-saying contrarian. This isn't an argument, it's contradiction. If you think this is a contest of who gets the last word, I'll let you have it. If you would like to have a real debate, you have to do one of the following: I provided proof that there is a scientific consensus that life begins at conception. Show me a scientific consensus that says otherwise. If life doesn't begin at conception, tell us, when does life begin? Give us an opinion. I have provided evidence of my assertions. You, have not. Show us your evidence. If you cannot do any of that, then we are done. I'm through playing with the trolls.
pot-kettle-black Of course you run away when you cannot face reality. BS, you provided 41 cherry picked quotes out of a possible 400,000 biologists, you don't even know how many embryologists there are among them, to claim a consensus is nothing but dishonesty, and it is impossible to show a consensus because the only claim scientists make about when life began is millions of years ago, there is simply no consensus as to the question does human life start at conception. For me it simply does not mater, it is irrelevant in the abortion debate and that is MY opinion, I don't claim it to be a scientific opinion, unlike you, because I know there is no scientific consensus as to when life begins, to say otherwise would just be me placing my bias onto the question. There are certainly scientists that support other views to mine and yours as you have been repeatedly shown, the fact that you dismiss these without reason only furthers validates that you are doing nothing but using confirmation bias. no you have not, all you have shown is that a number of scientist agree with you, and even then you have not shown how they came to their conclusions . .the fact that you also support that viewpoint in no way, shape or form can be seen as a consensus, a consensus is a general agreement, the fact remains that there a number of scientists who simply do not agree with your opinion. Yes of course try to run away when things get a little bit to difficult for you, and as to calling me a troll again you must be looking in the mirror.
Okay I will. Yes, scientists agree, life begins at conception. This is a well understood scientific fact that has been well known for many years. People who refuse to accept this are radical far left wing radical nutjob science deniers. Anyone with two brain cells will see that you have been posting nothing but contradictions. When you actually take a position on the issue, please inform the rest of us of your opinion as to when life begins because you have written about 2 hundred posts in these thread and have failed to state and opinion. No thank you. I don't need to be lectured by someone who pretends to be a scientist on TV. Bill Nye is an actor, not a scientist. It's understandable though. Many stupid people make the mistake of believing he is a scientist because he plays one on TV. First link: Life is a continuum. So using this logic, a sperm is human life and deserves constitutional protection. The stupidity of this argument need not be explored further. Second link: Life began billions of years ago. The stupidity of this argument is undermined by the question when does life begin, meaning for each individual human being. Obviously, each and every human being did not come into existence billions of years ago. This person is so stupid he needs to have his educational degree revoked. He follows up the stupidity by claiming every cell in the human body is alive and therefore needs constitutional protection under the proposed law. WHAT A BLEEPING IDIOT! NEXT! So which of those bleeping views is yours? That life began 2 billion years ago, or that human skin cells deserve constitutional protection under the law? Perhaps you should do your homework on Bill Nye the not a scientist guy before you go acting as though he is some kind of scientific authority. I'm embarrassed for you.
This is the nay-saying that I am talking about. Let's see if you have met my challenge, or if you have utterly failed then shall we? Those quotes were of scientists in articles and in text books which teach embryology. The purpose of the quotes is to demonstrate the fact that it is a well understood scientific fact that scientists agree that life begins at conception. The claim that life began millions of years ago in the context of the abortion debate with regard to the question of when each and every human life begins is an utterly absurd argument and an utterly stupefying nonsensical failure to address the argument entirely. I would not only call this a failure on your part, but an epic failure. The fact that once again, for the umpteenth time that you have raised this point goes to show a complete lack of understanding of the question at hand. If this is your opinion, I can honestly say that your understanding of the question is not sufficient and your ignorance regarding this scientific argument has been completely obliterated. And this is also another epic failure. Here you are, presenting arguments in an abortion thread which asks the question when does life begin, and you admittedly have no opinion on the subject, except to say that you know that it absolutely is not at the point of conception, which goes against every scientific understanding of when life begins. You are in fact, denying the one and only obvious conclusion which is the general understanding among scientists. I know there are scientists, who belong to the religion of liberalism who will say anything to support their religions sacred practice of human sacrifice. Scientists also are subject to their own political and religious biases. That goes without saying. But the honest ones will concede that life begins at conception. But nonetheless, you have failed to latch on to one scientist with whom you agree? So much for a superior understanding of the science. Actually I did. For you, I will again, post it, but this is the last time: This means you have failed on all three counts. Now this time I'll have the last word. I called you a troll because you are not debating the issue, only critiquing my view, and not even doing it substantively nor even attempting to present your own view. What more do you have to contribute besides giving more hack responses to the question?
When I decided to divert to this old thread, I never thought I would find this gem. Me and [MENTION=61087]Fugazi[/MENTION] arguing several years ago, and agreeing on the question, when does life begin...enjoy! I have it on good authority that life begins at conception: I liked the old [MENTION=61087]Fugazi[/MENTION].
Of course you don't understand that perspectives can change on issues so indoctrinated in the pro-life mantra that you are.
As usual anything that doesn't adhere to your confirmation bias is rejected, never mind your comments more than display the low level required to indoctrinate you.
