to be honest its getting boring to keep repeating myself, I have stated my position on abortion for all its stages, I have offered the evidence that gives me that position .. I can't be bothered to keep chasing pro-lifers as they divert away from the original OP in order to justify their stance and just keep repeating the same mantra regardless of anything else. I can't be bothered to keep pointing out the obvious hypocritical stances and lies of some of the pro-lifers here while they continue to preach their 2,000 year old zealous BS. I've been involved in abortion debates for over 10 years (not just on forums either) and I have never met such a rabid, ill informed bunch as most of the pro-lifers who frequent here.
Out of those 31 states that legalize partial birth abortions, prove too me, dude, that those are ONLY about the life of the mother. Diverting away from the original OP? I aint trying too do that. Maybe i'm not even doing that. Hypocritical pro lifers? Wait. What? How? Calling me an ignorant pro lifer is just a very ad hominem arguement!
Prove to me they are not. the original OP question was "When does Life Begin? Part 2" .. what does late term abortion have to do with that? I said "some" pro-lifers, do you come under the banner of a hypocritical one? Re-read my comment, where do I specifically call you ignorant, I don't.
Your comments are very immature. Look at the OP. the question is NOT about "viable fetus". but about when life begins. That is what I answered to. "Viable fetus" obviously have a brain stem. . . . Which doesn't exist in an early term fetus!
I will prove your first question to you once I do some more research later for today. Late term abortions does have a lot to do with this discussion.
when you do your research may I suggest you not only look at the views that support you own, but also the apposing views and those those that support neither. They don't, the OP is When Does Life Begin, what does that have to do with late term abortions?
My opinion on ethics and morals is not the problem, yours is. My opinion is constant and does not conflict with itself. Your opinion fluxuates and disagrees with itself to the point of implosion. You are of the opinion, basically, that slavery is both moral, and immoral. The inconsistancy is indefensable. Well, in case nobody told you, you can't have it both ways. Because my moral and ethical standpoint is right, it does mean that people with opposing standpoints are wrong. They have to be. Not everyone can be right. You see? Someone has to be wrong. LOL! Talk about wanting to have it both ways! "I am pro-life and pro-choice". Well isn't that convenient? That is a great way to get along with both sides, or neither. Anywho, you can't be both pro-life and pro-choice. I've heard this shallow ploy before. If you are pro-choice then you are pro-choice. Being pro-choice means you want to keep abortion legal, being pro-life means you want to make it illegal (not just an advocate for at risk people living in the womb). Stop sitting on the fence and playing childish games. Pro-lifers can play that game too, we can say, "I am pro-choice, I choose life." It is easy for you to say that you have no standing, therefore...Well aren't you the fortunate one. Were you born before or after Roe v Wade? If after, you should send you mother a thank you card each time you have a birthday. Unfortunately for all the dead babies murdered in the womb by their mothers, they too have no standing as they are already dead. They were not given a "choice" to become a person. You should review my sig. The Reagan quote about all the people who are for abortion have already been born is classic. And the Coulter quote about killing abortion doctors exposes the logical fallacy of your, "I have no Right or Authority to force her to comply with my personal beliefs" argument. I am happy for you that you are so proud of your well thought out position, er, heck, who am I kidding? How much thought have you really given the subject? Your opinion is about as spineless as a jellyfish. Yet another late comer to the party who doesn't know how to read a thread. We have already covered this idiotic argument over and over. Here is more of a clue for the truly challenged posters: When does life begin? not When did life begin?
Your comments are arrogant and insulting. You obviously have a right to your extreme opinions, but you do not have a right to insult others for their opinions. I maintain that a person's life begin only at the time it has developed a brain stem and the ability to feel and to function as a basic human being and to be viable outside the womb, even if it requires extensive assistance to do so (i,e,, feeding tube, artificial lungs, etc). Your arrogance may keep you from realizing that, if you find pro-choice stands ridiculous, it doesn't mean that pro-choice people do not find your stand to be ridiculous! And, obviously a person can at once be pro-choice AND pro-life. In fact, I am one of those person, as I do not see abortion as a choice that I would take. . .although one never knows until one is faced with the reality of having to make that choice, but I will always advocate for women to keep their right to make that choice for themselves. And, pro-life people are too often "pro-life" ONLY when the unborn are concerned. Once a child is born, too often those same people who "care so much" for the "right of the fetus" will turn their back on the child and proudly declare that, no matter what, the child is now the mother's responsibility to care for that child in every way, even if there is no way she can afford to provide for the child. Then, the "precious life of the fetus" suddenly becomes another "burden on the tax payers," and the mother is stigmatized for resorting to elfare assistance to try to provide the minimum subsistence for the born child! Hypocrisy is too often the characteristic of the most extreme so called "pro-lifers!"
Arrogance: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions. Hmm. I can see how someone who is so obviously wrong can feel that way when listening to someone whose correct and superior opinion is expressed with confidence. After all, I can see how one might feel insulted when it has been pointed out that they are the modern day equivalant of holocaust deniers or slavery advocates. You are very weak ethical and moral ground when the best excuse you can give for killing a human life in utero is that the mother doesn't want to or doesn't have the ability to afford to provide for the child. Well I'm sure the NAZI's thought they had (*)(*)(*)(*) good reasons to kill Jews too. Slave owners showed their empathy for the slaves by claiming they were better off under slavery. So go on and proudly proclaim your belief that woman should have the right to commit infanticide by the millions each year. Stand by that position. I'm sure history will treat you well. Talk about arrogance, you want to kill children because you say the people who don't want you to kill them won't pay money for them after they are born. That is one lousy excuse for abortion. As for pro-lifers not caring about born children, nothing could be farther from the truth. While liberals are off raising money for their favorite causes, snails and trees, dogs and cats adoption agencies, anti-fur campaigns or democrat campaigns, anti-war, anti-gun, pro-gay agendas, womens rights, (insert favorite minority color of the month) civil rights, climate change, conservative actually do things for children. Catholic charities for children as well as many other denominations, childrens hospitals, adoptions agencies, foster care, toys for tots, local food banks, financial assistance for poor families by religious organizations and churches. I always see religious organizations raising money for children, I can't name one liberal organization that does. Put that in your bong and smoke it.
Late term abortions only relate to about 0.01% of all abortions and are exclusively based upon medical reasons to save the life or perserve the health of the woman. I've read that only 7% of those in the US are so insane as to propose the life of the woman should sacrificed in these very rare cases. Where the problem exists is that because of Roe v Wade which ensures the Rights of the Woman, that the vast majority of Americans don't want overturned, we have a small minority of Republican legislators attempting to by-pass the "law of the land" by attacking the ability of a woman to have an abortion. There are three states (working from memory) where only one medical facility exists that perform abortions. These extremist social-conservative Republican legislators and governors are successfully by-passing Roe v Wade by denying access to a woman to have an abortion. Bascially their position is, "Okay women, you may have a Constitutionally protected Right to have an abortion but we're going to make it impossible for you to exercise that Right." By analogy it would be like liberals saying "Okay, you have a Right to Keep and Bear Arms but we're going to close all of the gun stores and prohibit all gun sales so you can't buy one."
I love that last silly paragraph So ALL Anti-Choicers Repub/Cons hate snails and trees, dogs and cats adoption agencies, anti-fur campaigns or democrat campaigns, anti-war, anti-gun, pro-gay agendas, womens rights, (insert favorite minority color of the month) civil rights, ....how ignorant of them!!! Now prove it is ONLY Anti-ChoicerRepugCons who partake in charity.... Beating on an empty chest doesn't prove a thing....
The whole first part of this actually shows your arrogance and superiority complex really well, with comments such as firstly you would have to demonstrate that the opposing view is "obviously wrong", which it "obviously" isn't, if it was then the abortion laws would be changed. secondly you would also have to demonstrate that your opinion is "correct and superior", which again you cannot do .. it may be for you, but you don't have the carte blanc control over other people (though I'm sure you would like to), hence you wish to have the state control certain sections of the population. Your comments are not about confidence they are about arrogance, arrogance that no one who has a differing opinion, van be right in any way shape or form .. this is the position of a closed minded person. Nice bit a Goodwins law invoked there as well, its strange that pro-lifers throw this analogy around without seeing the similarities to there own point of view from the Nazi position .. ie removing a portion of the populations rights and turning into a state controlled item. Slavery isn't really a good comparison at all, slavery was concerned with the rights of independent sentient person, something you and other pro-lifers have failed to establish for a zygote . .so really its just more of the arrogance of assumption. No its not a excuse for abortion, however it does call into question the pro-life stance.. personally it is not something I use as a reason for abortion at all, but it does have a bearing on the overall effect of making abortion illegal, just like most things there are a cause and effect. Pro-lifers want to address the cause but couldn't care less about the negative effect unless it would effect their pockets. Do you include all religious organisations in your generalization, including the ones who are not pro-life, or don't they count because they don't adhere to your particular chosen faith . . Certain religious organisations do a whole load of stuff, but what do you do personally, or do you just wash your hands and think, "oh well there are others out there to worry about it once its born", what is your personally monetary contribution the the pro-life cause or is it just lip services. OH and just in case you really can be bothered, here is a nice list of Liberal organisations who work within the children section Local Children’s Organizations Administration for Children and Families – Region 10: Seattle Children’s Alliance Children’s Campaign Fund Children’s Home Society of Washington Family Resources Northwest National Early Childhood TA Center Northwest Network for Youth Safe Schools Coalition School’s Out Washington Treehouse Washington Council for Prevention of Child Abuse & Neglect (WCPCAN) Washington School-Age Care Alliance Washington State CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocates) Washington State Child Care Resources and Referral Network Washington State PTA National Children’s Organizations Administration for Children and Families - ACF@ Association for the Education of Young Children Center for Law and Social Policy - A national, nonprofit organization which conducts research, policy analysis, technical assistance, and advocacy on issues related to economic security for low-income families with children. Center for the Future of Children Children's Defense Fund Child Rights Information Network (CRIN) Child Trends Databank - A one-stop-shop for the latest national trends and research on over 80 key indicators of child and youth well-being, with new indicators added each month. Child Welfare League of America Children Now Children's Defense Fund - The mission of the Children's Defense Fund (CDF) is to Leave No Child Behind and to ensure every child a Healthy Start, a Head Start, a Fair Start, a Safe Start, and a Moral Start in life and successful passage to adulthood with the help of caring families and communities. Children's Partnership, The ChildStats- Forum on Child and Family Statistics - Easy access to federal and state statistics and reports on children and their families, including: population and family characteristics, economic security, health, behavior and social environment,and education. Connect for Kids Consultive Group on Early Childhood Care and Development Every Child Matters Education Fund- national nonprofit organization devoted to improving the lives of children and families by advocating for better public policy during federal and state campaigns. Free The Children For the Grandchildren Granny Voter Kids Count - A national and state-by-state effort to track the status of children in the U.S.A.;publication of the Annie E. Casey Foundation. The Casey Foundation supports KIDS COUNT projects in more than 50 areas of the United States to raise public awareness and accountability for the condition of kids and families. International Youth Foundation Mainstreet Moms National Afterschool Association National Association for the Education of Young Children National Association of Child Advocates National Black Child Development Institute National Center for Children in Poverty - A nonprofit, nonpartisan research and policy organization to identify and promote strategies that prevent child poverty in the United States and that improve the lives of low-income children and families. National Court Appointed Special Advocates National Institute of Out of School Time National Healthy Mothers, Healthy Babies Coalition Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention Statistical Briefing Book - A publication of the Department of Justice, the statistical briefing book; offers easy to find basic statistical information on juvenile offending, victimization of juveniles, and involvement of youth in the juvenile justice system Save Head Start Save the Children Stand for Children United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) The Youth Policy Action Center - A collaborative effort by leading national advocacy and youth organizations to provide a central hub for issuing action alerts and posting resources for youth and youth advocates. The goal is to aid the youth movement by supporting organizations and individuals to promote youth involvement and empowerment. So put that in your pulpit and preach it.
To hell with the Constituionally protected rights garbage excuse.. "Okay, women, you may have a Constituionally protected right to saw and torture and horribly torture to death a ( a sometimes even) sentinent, viable, fetus/baby, that can totally survive on its own and feel pain, in a totally NSFW R-rated torture chamber experiment but we're going to make it impossible for you to......... (i don't know how else to continue that sentence without being sarcastic to you at all) OH HECK YEAH!!! THE republicans are using loopholes to get around our stupid laws. The more they do that, the better. I'm not being sarcastic at all. It's just plain true. This is why I wish that senator mitt romney had won our election. Then he could eventually sneak in some more anti-abortion laws, that are bypassing our stupid abortion laws and finding us pro lifers more loopholes into the system so that we could ban abortions, without trying to overturn ROE vs wade, witch could possibly take years, even decades. I must thank our former president George W. Bush, for banning partial-birth abortions. Pro choice is one thing. Pro abortion is one thing. But anybody who supports sucking out the brains of a fully developed, sentinent, and pain feeling, 6-9th trimester baby/fetus, that's practically a newborn baby already, and who think that that's a constituional right, (the radical pro abortion people), is, either ignorant, callous, or just plain malevolent. So, this is just a part of a woman's body that cannot feel any pain at all whatsoever and, either way, he/she can fully survive on his/her own outside of it's mother? Partial birth abortion affects full-term babies!!! Anybody who supports this is a maniac. Say what you will about George Georgey Bush, but he's a hero!!! I highly reccomend that you type in pictures of aborted babies/fetuses in google images. If abortion was so OK, there would be no shock value to doing that (shock value to yourself even), and our forum moderators wouldn't care if you posted those pictures over here. I judge obama not by the color of skin but by the content of his character.
You want to ban abortions but in another post you agreed that banning abortions wouldn't end them....your posts do seem to be all over the place HERE. If the majority of Americans believed in Mittsy's agenda he wouldn't have to sneak anything in...but your advocating dishonesty and corruption of the Republican party isn't necessary...they already ARE dishonest and corrupt...HERE
Sometimes being dishonest is the only way to get your way the quick and the easy and the most urgent way, and possibly maybe the only way in a matter of decades. I support Republicans finding loopholes. Once again, you still aren't directly answering what I'm saying!
If that's the case then to hell with the 2nd ammedment, to hell with the whole constitution let who ever is the president of the US enact what ever they wish .. (*)(*)(*)(*) those protection rights .. oh hang on isn't that a tyrant. You can't pick and choose what parts of the laws and constitution you want to keep. Don't you think that all types of political people use loopholes to get around a law they don't agree with, pro-life have been doing it with the abortion laws .. rightly in your opinion, wrongly in other peoples opinion .. that is the nature of the political beast. The whole idea of a democracy is the rule of the majority, and as the majority are content with the abortion laws as they are you are just going to have to accept the way it is .. you may not agree, you may protest all you like .. but it won't change it.
Pro life people getting around loopholes is the only way for us to get what we want. Partial birth abortions are a constitutional right??? The vast majority of the Nazis were OK with the Holocaust too. It will change it if we find some loopholes!!! I hope that more pro-life activists and republican and democrat pro-lifers alike find more loopholes to ban abortions, or, at the very least, to decrease the extent of them happening. These sneaky Republicans and democrats pro-lifers are all heroes!!! Roe Vs. Wade, to hell with that that nonsense!!! I don't care if it's a freaking constituional right!!!
Well at least we know where you stand .. this now means of course that all your comments can be treated as you lying to achieve your result, just as you advocate for the pro-life campaign. BTW you still haven't provided any evidence that Partial birth abortions are occurring for viable fetuses or on an elective basis, or that a fetus prior to 24 weeks is sentient, able to feel pain etc etc etc.
Not just lying, but finding loopholes around the system in order to ban our nonsense garbage abortion "constituional rights". That's the main issue here. The pro lifers (mainly pro life republicans but there's also some pro life democrats out there too!), have every right to find loopholes in order to ban abortions! I can totally understand why you would support the earliest of terms of abortions (where the embryo doesn't have a brain yet), but even second trimester abortions are messed up. Pain feeling or no peeling, the fetus/baby is still sentinent and the fetus/baby still looks human and it's viable. Do you want me to post pictures just to prove my point?
I never said pro-lifers (Anti-Choicers Repub/Cons) hate snails and trees. Pro-Murder Children in the Womb Dems/Libs like you often twist words and meaning of things because you have trouble justifying your Pro-Death mentality with logical arguments. How typical of you! Now, name some Pro-AbortionDemoLibs who partake in charities for Children (do not include fund raisers for abortion clinics like the inappropriately named "Planned Parenthood"). I think I have proven my point quite adequately. Of course I was never going to convince all the pro-baby killers that killing babies is wrong, but I made my points, and they refuse to acknowlege the truth in the face of all the evidence. They can burn in Hell swearing that they thought they were doing the right thing. What pulpit? I don't even go to church. I also don't give money to any organizations. I find it a bit useless. Particularly when you have well funded liberal pro-death organizations with deceptive names like "Save the Children". I mean, I don't know what Google search terms you used to get your list of pro-abortion groups which give themselves names to mislead the public into thinking they care about children, when in fact their goals are to kill them before they escape the womb, but I must admit that is an impressive list! I wonder how much money they raise for abortions or how much money they spend lobbying for abortions each year. That would be interesting to find out. I always thought that "Save the Children" was about education and food for poor children in 3rd world countries. I had no idea, nor do they advertise, about their pro-abortion philosophy and work. People actually give money to that charity thinking it is going to feed children, when it is actually being spent to abort children. Nice. Just shows you how evil the pro-death/pro-abortion dems and libs are. http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/4843313685.html I really don't have time to go through each and every one of your pro-baby killing charities to research their contribution to children and baby killing, but you get the idea. I'm pointing out the hypocracy of the left. Yes, we care about children, but we prefer to kill them before the exit the womb. If they get past you, you are more than happy to use these false front organizations to pass the word along on how to obtain a "safe abortion" so it doesn't happen again. Your list is nothing more than a bunch of "Planned Parenthood" type organizations. It's hard to find real charities on the left who care about children when the main point of liberalism is to promote abortion.
There is an actual amendment which actually mentions the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Libs think this means that you don't have the right to own a gun. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention abortion, but libs think it is a Constitutional right. Ain't that ironic.
and we have it .. no matter what id provided the closed mind of a pro-lifer will never even bother to do the research, they just continue to preach the gospel according to them. Funny how the link you give comes from a Christian site, So you don't give anything other than lip service to the cause you proclaim to support .. gotta love these arm chair revelationists, all for it as long as they don't have to reach into their pockets. You may "think" you have proven your point, but you are only proving it to yourself .. but hey don't let that little detail stop you. You obviously have no idea what so ever, wrapped up in your own little warped world, of what organisations like Save The Children actually do .. but of course because they are liberal minded, they must be evil. You are a very sad little person.
nope it don't say a thing about abortion, however it does state; I've bolded the relevant bits for you, as I know you have difficultly in reading things that you don't agree with. All persons born .. no mention of the pre-born at all person x 2 .. nothing to state a pre-born is a person
