Simply ignoring what I say and repeating nonsense doesn't make it any less nonsense. Nobody is 'forcing the adoption of the Welsh language' - the Welsh language has been here for a long time. They are merely making sure that people are allowed to use it, unlike the previous policy of trying to ensure that they can't. The 'costs' associated with that are small, and no more an inherent barrier to trade, investment or employment than expecting companies going across to operate in France to allow people to use French. Those who think that people should be forced to use the 'superior' language of English should be looking at their own national supremacist issues, rather than trying to criticise other on the basis of such asserted issues where they don't actually exist.
That isn't true isn't it? The Welsh language is imposed on the education framework and also businesses within regulatory framework. Welsh economists summed both up when referring to how the welsh language could actually deepen recessionary problems: Does the schooling system provide sufficient business and economic skills to its pupils? Evidence suggests these skills are highly rewarded in the labour market but they are not a mainstay of the curriculum. Similarly other features of the current curriculum may need to be reviewed. For example is the amount of time given to learning Welsh in schools an efficient use of resources? If it should remain compulsory should it be compulsory up to the age of 16? Should the Welsh Assembly Government consider the business costs of additional legislation in relation to the Welsh Language? A view inconsistent with reality. We have, for example, resources skewed by welsh language provision (including nepotism where welsh speakers outperform unfairly monoglots or those with foreign language skills). We also have huge opportunity costs in terms of education. A proper shame given the Welsh education system is failing
I realise that some people still maintain an attitude of 'stamp out Welsh and make them English for their own good', but the majority of people in Wales don't agree.
And they have forced the language on everyone. So we have fluent speakers still declining, but huge education and business costs. The stupidity of nationalism!
Adoption of Cymraeg my arse! You buggers have been trying to stamp it out for six hundred years, and YOU HAVE FAILED. Now bugger off!
Actually the biggest reason for the reduction in Welsh speaking was an influx of English workers. Its very much a class issue. Welsh speakers tend to be more middle class, often using the education system to ensure that their kids get 'more'
If you want to get an idea how all this immigration will affect your country, just take a look at the terrible countries where all these migrants come from! Isn't it interesting how we're almost completely taking in migrants from the worst part of the world?
There is sometimes some animosity from some over the border (usually nothing serious or worth worrying about - just small-minded people being small-minded), but more importantly history of Wales under rule from England is riddled with deliberate cultural and linguistic suppression of all things Welsh. For centuries (back in the days when Welsh was the language of the whole of Wales, and that is what all of the people spoke) Welsh people were not allowed to hold any form of official position or public office unless they were willing to converse entirely in English. Everything official was only allowed to be conducted in English - court proceedings, for example - people were regularly being tried and convicted of crimes without being able to understand a word at their 'trial'. Wales was almost entirely monoglot Welsh speaking, but all official things had to be conducted in a foreign language, and few Welsh people were actually able to participate. Then there were the 'Reports of the commissioners of enquiry into the state of education in Wales', published in 1847, known in Wales as 'the Treachery of the Blue Books'. At that time much of Wales was still very much Welsh speaking, but the commissioners appointed to carry out the study spoke no Welsh, and to a large extent simply repeated the prejudices of the English speaking landowners and Anglican clergy (when most Welsh speakers were non-conformist). The report concluded that the Welsh were ignorant, lazy and immoral, and that the reason for that was the Welsh language and non-Conformism, and that the people would only be able to improve if they were made to speak English instead. This attitude continued the previous trends, and continued an attitude against Welsh in government policy, among some of the Welsh people themselves, and in alot of education in Wales well into the 20th century - my own late Grandmother, in fact, was punished in school for being caught in the playground speaking Welsh (as a native Welsh speaker) to her also native Welsh-speaking friends as they played. There was also the 'Welsh Not' - not as widely used as some people tend to think, but still something that was used in places. The official attitude to the Welsh language has changed, especially over the last 50 years or so, but an enormous amount of damage was done by the previous policies. The attitude of the public has also become far more positive - keep telling a people for centuries that their own language makes them 'backwards' and is an impairment to them getting on in life and it does have an effect of their mindset towards it - that has now largely gone, thankfully, and the people of Wales (Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers) are generally very supportive of the language, and efforts to ensure that the previously forced decline does not end up with eventual disapearance of the language, or it being relegated once again to something that is not allowed to be used in public, official or working life. As can be seen from this thread, although most people from over the border don't know and/or don't care one way or the other about Welsh these days, or even actively support it as a part of pluralism and history, there are still a few who maintain this attitude that it would be so much 'better' for the Welsh people if their language no longer existed, and it were left to 'die out' (the fact that it is a minority language now has little to do with it 'dying out', and much to do with being deliberately stamped out). That everyone would be better off if they just spoke English, and forgot about that pesky language of their own. Most of the people of Wales, even most of those (like myself) who don't speak Welsh, don't agree with them.
Of course that had a significat effect (not just English workers, either - Italians and others who tended to use English as their second language, although many of them (including the English) did also learn to speak Welsh). I doubt anybody would claim that it didn't. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that it is certainly true that the government in London tried for centuries to stamp out the Welsh language, and did a huge amount of damage to it in the process. That is simple historical fact. What an utterly ludicrous claim. Stamping out the Welsh language is a 'class war' thing? Complete rubbish, and completely untrue. The likelihood of a person to be a Welsh speaker has far more to do with where they came from geographically, and nothing at all to do with class. The further West you are, especially in rural or semi-rural areas (including former mining villages - the South Wales coalfield is an unusual one topographically, and many of the mining villages remain very much villages in a rural setting, despite their industrial past and largely working class population) the more Welsh is used as a first language. The Welsh language is still relatively very strong in very much working class industrial towns like Neath, Llanelli, Ammanford, and so on, and it is still the language spoken by many of the working classes in many such places, as well as being the language of more agricultural regions and people further West. Those non-Welsh speakers who choose to send their children to Welsh speaking schools come from all kinds of backgrounds, and do so predominantly because they want their children to grow up speaking the native language of the country (often because they or their parents grew up in a time when speaking the Welsh language was still being portrayed as a 'negative' thing, so weren't taught it as kids). There is an element of thought and selection involved, of course, so it does tend to be parents who actually give a damn about their kids who make such choices, and that is the kind of thing that tends to help improve results in schools overall. That's no different from any other school with a decent reputation where parents choose to send their kids. To claim that Welsh is somehow a 'middle class language' is a complete fabrication. The language simply isn't a 'class' issue - that is complete made-up nonsense just being used to politically justify personal prejudice, and such claims ought to be treated with the ridicule and contempt that they deserve.
No problem - the history of Wales, the Welsh language, and the Welsh culture is a deeply fascinating subject, and one which is often misunderstood, and/or misrepresented, and/or simply ignored altogether, especially when it comes to any work supposedly intended as a 'History of Britain'. The same is largely true of the history of Scotland, of course, history being largely written by 'the victors' and all that.
There's more anti-English sentiment in Wales and Scotland than there is anti-Welsh and anti-Scottish sentiment in England. Scotland is a place where grown men attack a young woman for speaking with an English accent, giving her two black eyes and swollen cheeks, and where grown men attack a young New Zealand boy for wearing an England football shirt.
Possibly, but I guess that's to be expected, given the histories and historical resentments between them. It's a pity that some people still view things in that kind of negative and xenophobic way, and can't get past the bad things that were done by 'England' to the rest of the current UK, still blaming the current population of England for them. Such is life, though, especially when the raw nerve of one large country ruling over smaller countries still continues as it does. It's not right, of course, but you can't always legislate for morons! What doesn't help sometimes, though, is the attitude of some similarly small-minded English people when they visit, and go out of their way to wind people up and rub their supposed 'supremacy' (and rule over their countries) in their faces. The negative cultural problem of 'the English abroad' and their arrogance towards other people is a well known issue among the less respectful and intelligent from England, and it applies when they visit Wales and Scotland too - it is a bit of a stereotype, of course, but one unfortunately with some foundation. Most people happily engage in and enjoy a bit of friendly banter, obviously, but some idiots (on both 'sides') will unfortunately take it beyond that. There are a small minority of small-minded, violent morons everywhere, including in Scotland, of course. In Scotland such morons tend to focus their anger and hate towards 'the English', where in England it tends to be more aimed at 'Muslims' (at the moment), and 'immigrants' and 'foreigners' in general. The overwhelming majority of people in (and from) Scotland are perfectly decent people, though, just as are the people of Wales, and of England.
What I said was matter of fact. A socialist pandering to the middle classes? By crikey, you'll be a liberal in no time
The dominant effect. We should never forget the importance of economic reality. Its forgetting that now which has ensured skewed education and higher business regulations such that the economy (and therefore the Welsh peoples) suffer. Again its just matter of fact. Welsh speakers tend to be more middle class than non-Welsh speakers. Ignoring reality is of course a nationalist trait
Apparently it is a 'nationalist trait', but only one of us here appears to be a 'nationalist', and it certainly isn't me. One of us here is attempting to perpetuate myths in order to further their own personal agenda of stamping out anything that goes against their own nationalist sentiments of inherent superiority. Those myths are still myths, though, and their 'socialist' supposed brethren in Wales know that that is what they are.
You're demanding an economic damaging pursuit of the language. I'm not. I'm merely interested in my Welsh comrades not continuing to live the life of poverty that nationalism demands. Of course its not up to me and I'm in favour of the break-up of the Union. However, I will never stop from sneering at the stupidity of nationalism To show the middle class bent one can just refer to the econometric analysis into the impact of Welsh speakers. We know that, on average, they have higher education. A standard middle class result. We also know, mind you, that they have greater opportunities and higher wages than non-Welsh speakers with the same human capital levels
You keep throwing out this nonsense accusation, as if support for the Welsh language is some dangerous, radical, xenophobic 'nationalist' idea that has been forced on the people of Wales by some minority party, and that just isn't true. It is something with massive popular support, along with support from all 4 major political parties in Wales, not just from Plaid Cymru: Welsh Labour: Welsh Conservatives: Welsh Liberal Democrats: No doubt in favour of the break-up of the union so that glorious England can rise again and is no longer shackled to its 'inferior' neighbours. And yet it is you throwing out the accusations of xenophobic 'nationalism'! And now we have the politics of envy throw in with the policy of supremecism - typical traits of xenophobic nationalism. So Welsh speakers are still 'middle class', even though they actually aren't and are predominately from 'working class' backgrounds and areas, on the grounds that they seem to be doing OK for themselves generally (perhaps, in some cases, as a result of having decent parents that select a school for them, rather than just leaving them go to the local comp without giving a toss how well they do)? The politics of envy - people who come from working class backgrounds and do OK for themselves are 'traitors to their class', I suppose, for daring to earn money for themselves, and completely ignoring the reality that any time there is parental selection of schools those pupils tend to do better, not matter what the selection is based on (and the selection of a Welsh medium school is usually on the basis that the parents support the Welsh language, and would like their kids to be able to grow up speaking it). But no, it must just be that nasty Welsh language and those nasty middle classes sticking it to the working man, brother! They should all learn and use only the Queen's English - the 'natives' will be much better off for it...much more civilised...much less poor, lazy and ignorant. We're only saying it for their own good. We've seen this kind of supremacist, nationalist, xenophobic attitude from over the border plenty of times before. We're used to it. It doesn't matter, though - we can see it for the supremacist, nationalist, xenophobic nonsense that it is.
That isn't true is it now! I've simply acknowledged that the costs from the enforced pursuit of the language is substantial. Did you actually bother to consult the census and find out that I was correct? (i.e. Welsh speakers are skewed towards the middle classes). The reality of course is that the costs from the pursuit of the language is then imposed on the general population: lower skills base; businesses suffering under more regulation; discrimination against non-welsh speakers. This is rant and only illustrates that you cannot defend your position with rational comment
All you're showing is how nationalism makes all parties cower so they're not seen as anti-Welsh. Indeed, your ranting was a nice advertisement of what happens. I've referred to the reality: Welsh speakers are skewed to the middle classes; they overperform in the labour market (demonstrating something akin to discrimination); businesses see greater regulations imposed on them. These generate substantial costs. And what happens if you mention them? You get accused of being xenophobic! Thanks for making my point for me. Jolly decent of you!
Except that it really isn't at all, and it isn't something being 'enforced' by some minority 'nationalist' interest group, but demanded through the democratic system by the people of Wales themselves, Welsh and non-Welsh speaking alike. Repeating it doesn't make it true. It isn't. Non-Welsh speakers just aren't being discriminated against - that is a false assertion. The number of jobs where Welsh is listed even as 'desirable' is very small, and they are listed as such because speaking Welsh is actually necessary to perform the role. That's no different than suggesting that it is 'discrimination' to insist that a person taking a job in France should speak French, or that someone taking a job as an engineer should have an engineering qualification. It is part of the job to speak Welsh, therefore the person in the job obviously needs to be able to do that. No, what we are seeing here from you is the same old 'Welsh language should be abandoned for the good of the Welsh' nonsense that we've seen for generations. There may be an attempt to justify it in a slightly different way from some (certainly not all - we have seen this argument before, too) previous arguments, but the issue is still the same, and the root cause of it is still the same - nationalist, xenophobic, supremacist sentiment being justified by the 'it's for their own good' argument.
Absolute nonsense. Nobody is 'cowering'. All parties are fully supporting the language because the vast majority of the people of Wales fully support the language. It's really quite simple. Trying to paint it as something else is just ridiculous.
