WHO supports China opening up Wet markets

Half of the population of the province of Quebec lives in the greater Montreal area. That's dense enough.
Same with Ontario and the Toronto area. People lives in cities for the most part so taking the whole superficy of a region in consideration when it comes to disease transmission is pretty stupid.

 

1- I have not mentioned one European nation by name, so I am not sure how you are deriving which countries I am talking about. The United States is an enormous land mass. Places like New York have extremely tight population density, and correspondingly that is where you are getting a large percentage of all cases and deaths. You can add up all of the European countries and calculate the deaths per capita, and that number is many magnitudes higher than the deaths per capita in the United States. There is nothing here to argue. It is not even close, even when you take into accounts the projections of the final tallies. If things change, and our deaths per capita rise way above everyone else, then you will be able to say that we performed poorly. Unless and until that happens, if you are trying to be fair minded, you have to conclude that as of right now according to current projections, we have performed quite well.

2. You are saying that deaths per million are not how you should rank countries? Then tell me, how do YOU think that nations should be ranked, and please provide your reasoning behind that assertion. I am open to suggestion and will happily defend my position on the matter. Somehow I get the feeling that you are going to come up with some sort of logic that paints the United States in the worst possible light. Soehow I get the feeling that you are going to argue that raw numbers are the standard, regardless of the reality that you truly cannot compare a country of 5 million to a country of 330 million. Deep down, you too know that is a twisted form of logic.

 

Bottom Line, Once Again:

There is ZERO Chance to "Return to Normal" (or anywhere near) in the USA...

...WITHOUT A Vaccine...Period...

 

Nearly half of the United States deaths are in the New York City metro area, yet we lump them in the Montana. Lumping all of Canada is just as logical if you are lumping in everywhere else by the boundaries of their nation. New York City metro alone equates to well over half of the entire population of Canada. I dont see anyone rushing to take New York out of the United States numbers. If we did, the United States deaths per million looks a lot closer to Canada's.

Canada seems to be doing extremely well. So is Mexico. With Mexico, I am not so sure that anyone would attribute that to a great Corona response; not with a straight face anyway. Obviously something else is at play, and that something else without digging too deep is that they surely have a whole lot less international travel on a daily basis. I would suspect that Canada too on a per capita basis has a lot less international travel than the United States, but admittedly, I do not know that for a fact and I am not inclined to do that much work to confirm or deny that hypothesis. It is also safe to say that Canada is not exactly an international commerce hub like the United States or European nations.

At any rate,. I have already given Canada credit for having great results, so I am not sure what is your underlying point. I didnt bring up Canada, I only responded to someone else that did. That someone else also brought up the notion of population density, so responding to them with Canadas populatiuon density was more than a legit response.

 

You specifically compared the US, on a per capita "death per million" to "industrialized countries in Europe" and rated the US as doing well. Which implied clearly you were looking at countries like Spain, Italy, France, UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland et al. Not Russia, Ukraine, or other large land mass countries which have significantly lower deaths per 1/million.

No.
You can use that measure to rank countries. It is one measure which should be looked at in conjunction with many other factors, but it is a pretty good measure overall. If done at the right time.

What I was talking about when I said "that is not how you measure" was when you took a factor that I had mentioned informs how favorable or not have been the conditions to fight the virus (population density), and tried to somehow make it into something a lot more in the comparison with Canada.

Anyway, on the real point you care about, namely how Trump would rate in the measures he has taken, I would give him a D. I could even accept a C- as being equally reasonable. Anything better would not fit my view of how he has handled the situation. And, of course, being on top of the list of countries with the most cases and most deaths and most new deaths, is not the only thing I base that assessment on.

 

1. I did not try to differentiate between industrialized and non industrialized nations in Europe. All European nations are industrialized. The term industrialized was used to differentiate between nations such as those in Africa and South America and the like which really are not comparable. This was a nice attempt at wholly twisting my words to mean something that I specifically did not say, but even with your best effort, it still failed. I was not speaking about any European nation specifically.

2. Lets be clear. Anyone could sit here and split hairs along literally trillions of differing factors. It would truly be an exercise in futility. For example, we could look at exactly how many people with ticketed traveled from Wuhan to various countries and then draw conclusions, but doing so would be nearly impossible. Would this make a difference in assessing any countries response? Sure, if the data could legitimately be tracked. Such an analysis however is highly impractical. For purposes of where I used it, which was responding to someone that is arbitrarily declaring Trumps results as horrific while not providing such detailed information as travelers from Wuhan for example, pointing to Deaths per capita is BY FAR the most logical and practical measure to make such a determination. By that measure, and taking into accounts current projections, The United States is performing EXTREMELY well. Please note I did not say the best. I said they are doing comparatively well. Canada's success for example does not refute my statement even slightly.

 

The point is that your 'population density' statistics were for all of Europe. But your comment rating the US as doing well would have had to focus only on those I mentioned.

I have ranked the countries on that basis before. I will rank them here again. The US is among the top 10 in 'deaths per million'. There are many more than 10 countries in Europe as a whole. Indeed, the ones the US rates better, all have higher population density.

Here is the list of all countries with ore than 1,000 reported cases and how they rank in the deaths per 1/million category. You split the hairs you like from this list and spin it as you wish.

Highest-to-lowest death per 1 million of population
Countries with more than 1,000 reported cases:

1- Spain: 397 (18,579)
2- Belgium: 383 (4,400)
3- Italy: 348 (21,067)
4- France: 241 (15,729)
5- UK: 190 (12,868.)
6- Netherlands: 183 (3,134)
7- Switzerland: 142 (1,226)
8- Sweden: 119 (1,203)
9- Ireland: 82 (406)
10- USA: 79 (26,200)

11- Portugal: 59 (599)
12- Iran: 57 (4,777)
13- Denmark: 53 (309)
14- Germany: 43 (3,592)
15- Slovenia: 29 (61)
16- Norway: 27 (145)
17- Estonia: 26 (35)
18- Canada: 25 (954)
19- Iceland: 23 (8
20- Panama: 22 (95)

21- Ecuador: 21 (369)
22- Romania: 19 (337)
23- Turkey: 17 (1,403)
24- Dominican Republic: 17 (189)
25- Chechia: 16 (166)
27- Israel: 15 (154)
28- Hungary: 14 (134)
29- Finland: 13 (72)
30- Bosnia: 12 (41)

31- Serbia: 11 (99)
32- Moldova: 11 (44)
33- Lithuania: 11 (30)
34- Greece: 10 (102)
35- Croatia: 8 (37)
36- Brazil: 7 (1,557)
37- Peru: 7 (230)
38- Poland: 7 (268
9- Algeria; 7 (326)
40- Armenia: 6 (17)

41- Chile: 5 (94)
42- South Korea: 4 (225)
43- Belarus: 4 (36)
44- Bahrain: 4 (7)
45- Philippines: 3 (349)
46- Mexico: 3 (406)
47- Malaysia: 3 (83)
48- UAE: 3 (28
49- Morocco: 3 (127)
50- China: 2 (82,295)

51- Australia: 2 (63)
52- Saudi Arabia: 2 (79)
53- Indonesia: 2 (469)
54- Ukraine: 2 (108
55- Qatar: 2 (7)
56- Singapore: 2 (10)
....
(I think the point is clear and I don't need to continue, except highlight Japan which is still way down the list):
xx: Japan: 1 (146)

 

IOW, as I suspected, a cow has never been an Indian's best friend.

 

LOL...your point is not clear. You have provided a list that shows very few major countries below the United States with the notable exceptions of Germany, and Canada and surely perhaps a few others that you could marginally try to argue are major international western travel and/or industrialized hubs. The only point that is clear is that you have just proven my original point. The United States is performing comparatively quite well when you compare it to other industrialized western nations.

Just because you try to pick a nit here or there does not refute that statement one iota.

 

Canada is part of the G7 so yeah we're a big international commerce player, especially in the natural ressources, energy and food market. Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto are also international destination. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) is based in Montreal for a reason.

Canada is doing well because the provinces PM were pro active in applying distanciation measures.

The whole discussion about national population density is as I said stupid. 90+ percent of the Canadian population lives within 100km of the US border and the vast majority are in cities. It's the same for the USA nor any other country. If you want to take density into account then measure the population density in cities instead. There's no point to take into account the empty space where no one is living.

So Montreal as a population density of 4,517/km²
NY City has 25,846/km²
London 4,542/km²
Berlin 3,809/km²

Now compare the number of cases in those cities with those density factor and you'll see who's doing worst.

Montreal = 6,830/4,517 = 1.51
NYC = 111,424/25,846 = 4.31
London = 13/4,542 = 0.002
Berlin = 4,722/3,809 = 1.24

 

This reply is strange because there is a lot of writing, but within all of that writing, none of it responds to what I actually said.

What part about me saying that Canada is doing well in my first post to which you actually replied, and then when I said it again in response to you, did you not understand?

I guess you are trying to say that Canada and the United States are somehow the two most comparable countries in the world? I have no desire to get into a long drawn out discussion on this topic, but I will say that under no other circumstances have I ever personally considered Canada and the United States to be all that comparable, and I happen to live within 25 miles of the Canadian border. Canada is a fine country, but lets face it, economically they are little more than an afterthought. Without doing a great deal of research, they are probably about as relevant economically as is Brazil. I simply do not see Canada or Brazil as all that great of a comparator to the United States.

With that being said, let me repeat.....Canada is doing great in regards to deaths per million residents. Their number has grown quite a bit in the last few days and will continue to do so, but they are still doing very well comparatively with the rest of the world. Please do not respond again as if I am somehow denying that they are doing well.

 

Unlike you, I am not much into trying to fit facts into any a priori assumptions. As I said, you can spin the list as you wish and take comfort in whatever 'categories' you like to limit your comparisons to. The list shows what it does: the US doing better at this time on death per 1/million compared to merely 9 other nations in the world, all with much greater population density. And since there are around 50 countries in Europe, including just 28 in the EU, even compared to European countries, the US would be performing more like the bottom quarter on that list. Compared to the rest of the nations in the world, including many 'industrialized ones' outside of Europe with significant travel, the US would be doing much (much) worse on this particular scale.

In the meantime, the US is right now #10 on this list of top 10 worst in deaths per 1/million, while obviously being #1 in overall deaths and in overall new deaths reported each day. Out of curiosity, how do you think the US will rate by next week around this time? Will others takeover the top 10 spot from the US in terms of the worst performing countries. Or will the US move up and begin challenging for the top 5 on this list?

 

-Fit facts into prior assumptions?...for crying out loud I am advocating for using an objective measure and my position is that deaths per capita is by far the most practical and useful and objective measure in existence. I have even mentioned that things could change with time, but where projections stand right now, we are performing quite well by that objective measure. How you are now trying to imply that such a stance somehow constitutes "fitting facts into prior assumptions" strains credulity.

-For crying out loud, the United States is the largest economy in the world. It is nonsensical to pretend like the largest economy in the world should somehow be comparable to Latvia or some other similarly obscure country that almost no one on this board could actually find on an unmarked map. Everyone knows what are the major economic powers in this world. Of those major economic powers, the United States is doing far better than most.

This conversation has gotten stale and boring. We have both had our say on the matter. I feel more than confident that I have proven my point. I am sure that you think you have proven yours. It is time to let the reader decide. I have a limit on how many times I am willing to go back and forth bickering aimlessly without the topic being advanced even slightly. We passed that point a while back. Let the reader decide.

 

removed because seems the debate was finished

 

I don't want to extend the debate either and you can take comfort in whatever conclusions you have drawn.

The US, the largest economy in the world, can presumably be compared to none other -- and rank best in that sense. In that case, no need to judge its performance comparing it to the nations!

But even if we wanted to limit the comparison to the top economies in the world, here is the list of the top 10 economies in the world on GDP. The ones which the US has worst 'deaths per 1/million population' are highlighted.

• United States.
• China.
• Japan.
• Germany.
• India.
• United Kingdom.
• France.
• Italy.
• Brazil
• Canada

On this matrix (which isn't mine), the US would rank in the bottom 50 percentile, doing worse than 6 out of the top 10 (and all of the rest of the top 5).

I am sure if one put their minds to it, they could come up with some "objective" matrix where the US numbers will start to look good. But an "objective matrix" is one you could define in specific terms, not by broad generalizations.

 

Let me start by saying that I still do not want to extend this conversation, but I do have to respond to this aspect.

China?.....really? Do you honestly believe one thing about the data that comes from them?

India?....really? While their apex is far off and their numbers have not really been reported, most experts i have seen expect that country to probably be the biggest Corona disaster in the entire world. I would hold off on that one. They have an awful healthcare system in the best of times, their population density is through the roof, and they closed down their society much later than most everywhere else. If they somehow come out of this anything short of an utter catastrophe, I am pretty sure that most experts would assume they simply did not bother to properly assess and report their deaths specifically from the virus due to the reality that most of that country is literally third world.

Brazil?......cmon man.

You are now playing with small numbers and drawing big conclusions from those small numbers. When you properly eliminate the obvious such as China, and the others, your statistics skew greatly rendering them literally useless.

I will give you Germany and Canada as far as beating us, but the rest that you say are beating us seem like a bit of a stretch in the context of valid comparators.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Go to that link and double click on the deaths per million residents column. You will not see all that many major nations that have better numbers than the United States. That is not to say that there are not a few, but there are not many. For those that are reflexively stating that we are doing worse than almost everyone based on raw numbers, my response more than adequately refuted that notion. Such a declaration is the only truly "broad declaration" made in the conversation in which you joined, yet I bet that you have not made that reply to them.

Deaths per million is BY FAR the most practical means of a quick reference assessment of how each country has fared against the Coronoavirus, and it is certainly FAR more logical than using total numbers with zero consideration given to population size. Yes, those numbers can be parsed down much further, but as far as a practical means of quickly assessing, their is not another legitimate and practical better option. Perhaps you ought to give your generalization speech to the cacophony of leftists on here that are pointing to our total numbers and declaring that we are therefore doing worse than virtually everyone?

 

Highest-to-lowest death per 1 million of population
Countries with more than 1,000 reported cases:
1- Spain: 397 (18,579)
2- Belgium: 383 (4,400)
3- Italy: 348 (21,067)
4- France: 241 (15,729)
5- UK: 190 (12,868.)
6- Netherlands: 183 (3,134)
7- Switzerland: 142 (1,226)
8- Sweden: 119 (1,203)
9- Ireland: 82 (406)
10- USA: 79 (26,200)

The 9 countries as a whole has a much greater population density than the US. The US in no way is "doing well"!

 

So you show me a list of the highest to lowest deaths per million where the USA is the lowest out of those 10, and you think this somehow indicates that the United States is doing poorly? LOL

At any rate, this exact topic has already been covered. I am not going to do so again.

 

In other word, you're a moron...

 

You do know that there is close to 200 countries below that list, don't you? So perhaps you could explain how the US is "doing well" yet no one has said that any of the countries above the US are even doing ok?

 

Relaxing our approach can not be based on anything other than how well WE are doing.

If we had COVID data matching what China is reporting, we would relax our restrictions, too.

Our unbelieveably slow response to COVID had nothing at all to do with WHO. Beyond that when has Trump EVER listened to an entity such as WHO?? For HIM in particular to blame WHO for late warnings is TOTALLY a self serving attempt to rewrite history.

AND, defunding a needed capability is ridiculous. If we want WHO to improve, we don't do it by defunding them. Defunding is a method of killing them. But, if that is the objective we would leave WHO - which Trump has not even suggested.

This is just more of Trump trying to deflect the blame for his feckless leadership on COVID, which continues TODAY.

 

Ding ding ding!
Winner winner chicken dinner!

 

??
The idea that there are only two possible sources is just plain STUPID.

One of the leading theories is that it was spread from animals to humans by bats.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-it-really-bats-pangolins-wuhan-animal-market

As the story points out, the first identified case did not involve contact with a wet market.


I know it's fun and games to suggest the CCP was trying to kill the world, but how about STOPPING THAT NONSENSE?

 

Fact: The CCP has allowed the wet markets to reopen.
Conclusion: The CCP knows that the Chinese Wuhan Coronavirus Pandemic came from a CCP lab in Wuhan - not the wet markets.

 

Once again, this is just plain BS. China is NOT the only country that does not believe COVID had to do with the fish market in question.

You have NO evidence to support your "secret lab" conspiracy theory.

NONE.

Conspiracies are bad for America, as they cause us to make decisions based on FALSE information - since we are a democracy.

How about stopping your assault on China, America, and the rest of the world?