Who Truly Deserves a State? The Kurds or the Palestinians?

Discussion in 'United States' started by alan131210, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    By Victor Sharpe — American Thinker

    [​IMG]

    Victor Sharpe is a freelance writer and author of the trilogy Politicide: The attempted murder of the Jewish state.
    February 19, 2012

    There are over twenty Arab states throughout the Middle East and North Africa, but the world demands, in a chorus of barely disguised animosity towards Israel, that yet another Arab state be created within the mere forty miles separating the Mediterranean Sea and the River Jordan.

    Israel, a territory no larger than the tiny principality of Wales or the state of New Jersey, would be forced to share this sliver of land with a new and hostile Arab entity to be called Palestine, while seeing its present narrow waist reduced to a mere and suicidal nine miles in width -- what an earlier Israeli statesman, Abba Eban, described as the Auschwitz borders.

    Remember, there has never existed in all of recorded history an independent sovereign nation called Palestine -- and certainly not an Arab one. The term "Palestine" has always been the name of a geographical territory, such as Siberia or Patagonia. It has never been a state.

    But there is a people who, like the Jews, deserves a homeland and truly can trace their ancestry back thousands of years. They are the Kurds, and it is highly instructive to review their remarkable history in conjunction with that of the Jews. It is also necessary to review the historical injustice imposed upon them over the centuries by hostile neighbors and empires.

    Let us go back to the captivity of the Ten Tribes of Israel, who were taken from their land by the Assyrians in 721-715 BC. Biblical Israel was depopulated, its Jewish inhabitants deported to an area in the region of ancient Media and Assyria -- a territory roughly corresponding to that of modern-day Kurdistan.
    Assyria was, in turn, conquered by Babylonia, which led to the eventual destruction of the southern Jewish kingdom of Judah in 586 BC. The remaining two Jewish tribes were sent to the same area as that of their brethren from the northern kingdom.

    When the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, Cyrus the Great, allowed the Jews to return to their ancestral lands, many Jews remained (and continued to live) with their neighbors in Babylon -- an area which, again, included modern-day Kurdistan.

    The Babylonian Talmud refers in one section to the Jewish deportees from Judah receiving rabbinical permission to offer Judaism to the local population. The Kurdish royal house and a large segment of the general population in later years accepted the Jewish faith. Indeed, when the Jews rose up against Roman occupation in the 1st century AD, the Kurdish queen sent troops and provisions to support the embattled Jews.

    By the beginning of the 2nd century AD, Judaism was firmly established in Kurdistan, and Kurdish Jews in Israel today speak an ancient form of Aramaic in their homes and synagogues. Kurdish and Jewish life became interwoven to such a remarkable degree that many Kurdish folk tales are connected with Jews'.

    It is interesting to note that several tombs of biblical Jewish prophets are to be found in or near Kurdistan. For example, the prophet Nachum is in Alikush, while Jonah's tomb can be found in Nabi Yunis, which is ancient Nineveh. Daniel's tomb is in the oil-rich Kurdistan province of Kirkuk; Habbabuk is in Tuisirkan; and Queen Hadassah, or Esther, along with her uncle Mordechai, is in Hamadan.

    After the failed revolt against Rome, many rabbis found refuge in what is now Kurdistan. The rabbis joined with their fellow scholars, and by the 3rd century AD, Jewish academies were flourishing. But the later Sassanid and Persian occupations of the region ushered in a time of persecution for the Jews and Kurds, which lasted until the Muslim Arab invasion in the 7th century. Indeed, the Jews and Kurds joined with the invading Arabs in the hope that their action would bring relief from the Sassanid depredations they had suffered.

    Shortly after the Arab conquest, Jews from the autonomous Jewish state of Himyar in what is today's Saudi Arabia joined the Jews in the Kurdish regions. However, under the now-Muslim Arab occupation, matters worsened, and the Jews suffered as dhimmis in the Muslim-controlled territory. The Jews found themselves driven from their agricultural lands because of onerous taxation by their Muslim overlords. They thus left the land to become traders and craftsmen in the cities. Many of the Jewish peasants were converted to Islam by force or by dire circumstances and intermarried with their neighbors.

    From out of this population arose a great historical figure. In 1138, a boy was born into a family of Kurdish warriors and adventurers. His name was Salah-al-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub -- better known in the West as Saladin. He drove the Christian crusaders out of Jerusalem even though he was distrusted by the Muslim Arabs because he was a Kurd. Even then, the Arabs were aware of the close relationship that existed between the Kurdish people and the Jews.

    Saladin employed justice and humane measures in both war and peace. This was in contrast to the methods employed by the Arabs. Indeed, it is believed that Saladin not only was just to the Christians, but he allowed the Jews to flourish in Jerusalem and is credited with finding the Western Wall of the Jewish Temple, which had been buried under tons of rubbish during the Christian Byzantine occupation. The great Jewish rabbi, philosopher, and doctor Maimonides was for a time Saladin's personal physician.

    According to a team of international scientists, a remarkable discovery was made in 2001. Doing DNA research, a team of Israeli, German, and Indian scientists found that many modern Jews have a closer genetic relationship to populations in the northern Mediterranean area (Kurds and Armenians) than to the Arabs and Bedouins of the southern Mediterranean region.

    But let us return to the present day and to why the world clamors for a Palestinian Arab state but strangely turns its back upon Kurdish national independence and statehood. The universally accepted principle of self-determination seems not to apply to the Kurds.
    In an article in the New York Sun on 6 July 2004 titled "The Kurdish Statehood Exception," Hillel Halkin exposed the discrimination and double standards employed against Kurdish aspirations of statehood. He wrote, "[T]he historic injustices done to them and their suffering over the years can be adequately redressed within the framework of a federal Iraq, in which they will have to make do -- subject to the consent of a central, Arab-dominated government in Baghdad -- with mere autonomy. Full Kurdish statehood is unthinkable. This, too, is considered to be self-evident."

    The brutal fact in realpolitik, therefore, is that the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians have many friends in the oil-rich Arab world -- oil the world desperately needs for its economies. The Kurds, like the Jews, have few friends, and the Kurds have little or no influence in the international corridors of power.

    Mr. Halkin pointed out that "the Kurds have a far better case for statehood than do the Palestinians. They have their own unique language and culture, which the Palestinian Arabs do not have. They have had a sense of themselves as a distinct people for many centuries, which the Palestinian Arabs have not had. They have been betrayed repeatedly in the past 100 years by the international community and its promises, while the Palestinian Arabs have been betrayed only by their fellow Arabs."

    The old nostrum, therefore, that only when the Palestinian Arabs finally have a state will there be peace in the world is a mirage in the desert. Fellow writer Gerald Honigman also writes on the world's preoccupation with the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians while ignoring the plight of the Kurds, Berbers, and millions of other non-Arab peoples of the Middle East and North Africa. Honigman's book was part of the LSS exhibit at the prestigious ASMEA Conference of scholars last November (and is now in at least a dozen major universities so far) and has several chapters focusing on the Kurdish issue. It's no accident that its foreword was written mostly by the President of the Kurdistan National Assembly of Syria.
    During the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, the Kurds were gassed and slaughtered in large numbers. They suffered ethnic cleansing by the Turks and continue to be oppressed by the present Turkish government, whose foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, had the gall to suggest, at a meeting of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, that Turkey supports the oppressed of the world. He ignored his own government's oppression of the Kurds and predictably named the anti-Semitic thugdom in Gaza "oppressed." On the basis of pure realpolitik, the legality and morality of the Kurds' cause is infinitely stronger than that of the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.

    On the other hand, after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, the Kurds displayed great political and economic wisdom. How different from the example of the Gazan Arabs who, when foolishly given full control over the Gaza Strip by Israel, chose not to build hospitals and schools, but instead bunkers and missile launchers. To this they have added the imposition of sharia law, with its attendant denigration of women and non-Muslims.

    The Kurdish experiment, in at least the territory's current quasi-independence, has shown the world a decent society where all its inhabitants, men and women, enjoy far greater freedoms than can be found anywhere else in the Arab and Muslim world -- and certainly anywhere else in Iraq, which is fast descending into ethnic chaos now that the U.S. military has left.
     
  2. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    Barack Obama, David Cameron, Angela Merkel, Nicolas Sarkozy, and all the leaders of the free world should look to Kurdistan, with its huge oil reserves, as the new state that needs to be created in the Middle East. It is simple and natural justice, which is far too long overdue. A Palestinian Arab state, on the other hand, will immediately become a haven for anti-Western terrorism, a base for al-Qaeda and Hamas (the junior partner of the Muslim Brotherhood), and a non-democratic land carved out of the Jewish ancestral and biblical lands of Judea and Samaria upon which the stultifying shroud of sharia law will inevitably descend. In short, it will be established with one purpose: to destroy what is left of embattled Israel.

    Finally, it is also natural justice for the Jewish State -- with its millennial association of shared history alongside the Kurdish people, who number over 30,000,000, scattered throughout northwestern Iran, northern Iraq, Syria and Turkey -- to fight in the world's forums for the speedy establishment of an independent and proud Kurdistan. An enduring alliance between Israel and Kurdistan would be a vindication of history, a recognition of the shared sufferings of both peoples, and bring closer the advent of a brighter future for both non-Arab nations.
    Mahmoud Abbas, Holocaust denier and present president of the Palestinian Authority, has never, and will never, abrogate publicly in English or in Arabic the articles in Fatah's constitution, which call for the "obliteration of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence" -- or, in other words, the destruction of the Jewish State and the genocide of its citizens. So much for the man President Obama and the Europeans shower with money and praise.

    It is the Kurds who unreservedly deserve a state. The invented Palestinian Arabs have forfeited that right by their relentless aggression, crimes, and genocidal intentions towards Israel and the Jews.

    Victor Sharpe is a freelance writer and author of the trilogy Politicide: The attempted murder of the Jewish state.

    Victor Sharpe is a freelance writer with many published articles and essays in leading national and international conservative websites and magazines. Born and educated in England, he is now a U.S. citizen and lives in the Pacific Northwest. He has been a broadcaster and has authored several books including a collection of short stories under the title The Blue Hour. His highly acclaimed two-volume set of in-depth studies on the threats from resurgent Islam to Israel and Judeo-Christian civilization is titled Politicide. When not writing, he is also an accomplished Jazz musician and performer.


    Copyright ©, respective author or news agency, americanthinker.com
     
  3. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Why is this in USA section? Second, American "Thinker" [sic] is a far right source which lacks credibility.

    As for who deserves their own state? Palestinians and Israelis should have one unified state. And for Kurds, it is more complicated since several borders would be crossed. For the record, I'd like to see them get their own state. But it should be borne in mind that there are other minority groups within those lands.
     
  4. The Third Man

    The Third Man Banned

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    Your guys logic is way off. I could say there was never a country called the USA until they invented it or any other country,there was no France,UK etc etc. I think that idiot did not think through his argument too well but only to be expected from the type of morons who write in American thinker. I think the Palestinians should have their own state. I also believe that the Kurds should have one as well. I do not see why we should choose between who gets one really. It is obvious that the author is just some pro israeli muppet.
     
  5. creation

    creation New Member

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    What do you want from us Alan?

    We pro palestinians have never been against a Kurdish state. As long as your protecting the lives and homes of your minorities then go ahead and declare one. The Iraqi army cant stop you and the Americans arent interested in stopping you. Neither is anyone else. So go ahead.

    For the palestinians the israelis are actively preventing a state and taking land.

    But we pro pals here are all for you. Good luck.
     
  6. DA60

    DA60 Banned

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    Anyone whose majority wants it.

    Duh.
     
  7. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    i am not against a Palestine state either dear i am just posting what this guys says . in Kurdistan we have Palestinian consulate but we dont have Israel consulate , but unfortunately as a Muslim stateless nation of 40,000,000 the Arab states do not support a Kurdish state nor did they ever condemn Saddam's brutal genocides of Kurds (Halabja and Anfal campaign = 150,000 dead kurds) which shows their hypocrisy so it makes Kurds wonder if they did the right decision to convert in the first place back in them days, and our Land is occupied by Muslims not Christians not Jews .
     
  8. Borat

    Borat Banned

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    You've been supporting the creation of the 23rd arab state, moreover the majority of you want it not to exist alongside a tiny Jewish state but instead of it.

    You've done nothing, zilch, nada to support the creation of one Kurdish state - no whining on the internet, no boycotts, UN resolutions, the media is silent, the politicians are not condemning anyone, no demonstrations, protests, no support/solidarity organizations....NOTHING.

    I don't know what Alan wants but the author of the article clearly wants to demonstrate the hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, double standards and total lack of consistency of the uber-liberal Israel hate mob. I think he did a pretty good job.
     
  9. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    Alan wants to demonstrate the hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, double standards and total lack of consistency of the Arab world.
     
  10. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    American Thinker is a lousy source.

    The idea of taking land away from settled people by force to create a new state is a terrible idea.. Look how it worked in Israel.
     
  11. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    you obviously a good example of the hypocrite arabs out there .

    here is Kurdistan and the land is 100% inhabitable by kurds but occupied and drawn under other countries who deprive them of basic rights , and of course you would love that would you ?

    [​IMG]

    as we can see clearly from the map non kurdish areas will not be included in a kurdish state as magot claims .

    @ magot: stop disrupting the facts that kurds are spread all over the world and want to create a state which is not the case , the map shows where "Today" kurds form majority and have been so for 1000s of years and would like to create a state of their own like Palestine and South Sudan .
     
  12. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    1921 Treaty of sevres also gave the Kurds a right to establish a state of their own but their Muslim brothers "turks arabs and persians" back stabbed them and to this day prevent them the same right of statehood they have been enjoying after the fall of ottoman empire .

    here is the proof kurds wanted a state in 1919 but were later back stabbed by Muslim neighbors

    [​IMG]
    http://www.kurd.org/doc/OLeary_SLIDES.pdf
     
  13. Margot

    Margot Account closed, not banned

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    100% Kurdish?? Kurds should learn to lve with others and seek office... and influence.

    If Kurdistan is created taking land from others ... and taking developed oil resources from others.. it will be another Israel.. on the dole and involved in bloodshed for 60 years.
     
  14. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    and that is a blow to all pan-Arabs who claim "Kurdistan" is a west/Jewish project , well Kurdistan has been around for much longer than some even Arabic countries and as you can see in 1919 kurds wanted a state of their own , which back then no Jewish state even existed .
     
  15. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    yes 100% kurdish , you dont believe it ? go conduct a census that's of course if you wont get shot by turks Arabs and Persians ... and for your info one part is now semi-independent , that's the south Kurdistan and in 2005 98.8% voted for independent conducted by a poet who lived in diaspora for 20 years .

    next part to be free is Syrians Kurdistan which the opposition leader at Tunis promised them "autonomy" after Assad goes .

    next occupied part will be Iran after its attacked and an internal evolution erupts . and lastly will be Turkey's Kurdistan which is the hardest part to liberate for turkey been USA's puppet and all .
     
  16. creation

    creation New Member

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    Well you know what Alan? Screw this guy, hes no more a historian than my rabbit.

    Your Iraq is full of Sunni muslims, whove got minorities up in your area and are obsessed with a 'strong' Iraq.

    All you have to do is run your state separately, as you do now, and sooner of later youll have your own state. No one is taking anything away from you or denying that you exist.

    By the way arent most Kurds muslim? And cant you just use majority votes in your area and vote your way to a state? Who exactly is oppressing you?
     
  17. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    my dear friend , yes Kurdistan is currently semi-independent . we have our own army . parliament , flag , president . PM , TV stations , schools , oil contracts and 24 consulates including Palestinian one . the problem lies in the borders we do not have access to sea we are surrounded by anti kurds who have kurdish minorities within their borders and are scared the same fate for their kurdish minority , so they are turkey Iran and Syria (all Muslims) by the way , and yes 90% of Kurds are Muslims .
     
  18. creation

    creation New Member

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    Indeed and why not? You guys are sitting on hundreds of villages youve bulldozed and taken over and pat yourself on the back while trying to mke everyone foorget the hundreds of thousands of people you got rid of.

    However the majority of us have supported the generous palestinian claim to only 22% of original palestine. Giving up 78%.

    Got your facts wrong again Borat. The original no fly zone over north iraq was imposed thanks to the protest and demands of the european left who also support palestinians. Not Israelis, not americans certainly not you.


    The Kurds were oppressed under Saddam, they are not now, they are semi autonomous, and recognised as a people throughout the world. The palestinians remain in dire straits and people like you dont even acknowledge their existence. Big difference.

    And your Victor whatever fellow who wrote the article wouldnt know a fact if it bit him.
     
  19. creation

    creation New Member

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    Right so you have all this, but you want sea access...anything else on your shopping list we can get for you?

    Should we demand that your surrounding anti--kurd states be exterminated or something? What?
     
  20. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    you did not get what i said but like usual you all jump to conclusions .

    Kurdistan does not have access to sea so declaring a state isnt easy as we can be suffocated by "muslim" neighbors . you asked who was oppressing us and i gave you the answer instead you turned out to be quite a joker .
     
  21. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    it was NATO who maintained the no fly zone so yes America did have a role . and it was created by the result of exodus that Kurds faced in 1991 .
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obCHSY0nVro"]Gulf War 1991 - Kurdish Exodess in 1991 Gulf War - Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]


    they still are as there are Kurdish areas still not under Kurdistan government control , they are called "140 sliced off areas" a 3 step process in the Iraqi constitution called article 140 was set to finalize the issue but Arab Iraq keeps delaying it since 2007 . and kurds still on daily basis get killed in these areas by Sunni Arabs as they have power and kurds dont in these areas .
     
  22. creation

    creation New Member

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    Indeed NATO, but none of that wouldve happened if the left hadnt got upset about the Kurdish plight. Thats right the same people who support palestinians.


    Are there? Gee, thats a pity.
    So whats stopping you just moving your borders and taking these areas? Not enough votes? Not enough Kurds?

    The Iraqi army? LOL, please dont make me laugh.
     
  23. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    Arab iraq is , you seem clueless so let me let you in on what is going on . the article 140 in the iraqi constitution has laid out the 3 road map to solve these sclied off areas and the process is as following :

    1. Normalization (Saddam Kicked Kurds out and replaced them with Arabs who to this day refuse to leave even though they have been compensated by the same article).
    2. Census (Iraq does/has not conducted it to avoid implementation of the article)
    3. Referendum (which again Kurds want and Arab Iraq refuses)

    that is what is stopping us dear , we do not believe in taking them back by force and deportations otherwise we are no different to Saddam .

    these are the "sliced off areas" marked in blue which their fate hangs in the hand of central government not Kurdistan government.

    [​IMG]
     
  24. alan131210

    alan131210 New Member

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    and guess why iraq is avoiding to implement its own constitution ???? cos these kurdish areas have "oil" in them , but currently Kurdistan has 45 billion barrels of reserve oil and 200 trillion cubic meter feet of gas , and the sliced off areas only have about all up 10 billion barrels , so you see its not oil we kurds want but they are kurdish areas which were sliced of by Saddam and their demographics were changed , which according to the 140 article the unfairness will be undone , but Arab Iraq is refusing to implement the article and let the people there decide their fate .

    this is one of the sliced off areas demo in "Khanaqin" the blue block on right lower part of the map
     
  25. DA60

    DA60 Banned

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    Starting countries just to stuff morons/ignoramuses that belief in dumb ass religions is a pathetic way to start.
     

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