Who Truly Deserves a State? The Kurds or the Palestinians?

Im cognitzant of the fact that iraq is holding out on normalisation, negotiation and reform so why not go your own way?

Take a census, hold a referendum, invite the UN or someone to verify it.

Re oil just offer the rest of Iraq a slice of the oil money.

If the arabs continue to hold out, publicly declare theyve got about a year or two to get it together. Then they can (*)(*)(*)(*) off.

In the bad old days Saddam was in the driving seat because he had a big mechanised army. Thats no longer the case. Nowadays youve got loads f support and no one powerful enough to mess with you.

 

yes i agree with you totally and in a recent interview Barzani the President of Kurdistan said just that . In an interview with the Persian Voice of America (VOA) radio, Barzani said they will decide on the issue of the "Sliced off" areas in Kurdistan if it is not resolved by the constitution. “The issue of the disputed areas is in the constitution and we will try to resolve it through the constitution until the last minute. But we do not compromise over it,” Barzani said. He said if it failed to be resolved through the constitution, “We will raise the issue to the Kurdistan parliament and decide on it after a plebiscite took place.”

 

Im glad you guys are deciding to go your own way. i also think you guys have a great chance at producing a reasonable democratic economy.

But its not really the same situation for the palestinians.

 

Let them both have their states.

 

good idea my dear friend , i hope US Russia France and China thought the same too .

 

Sure isn't. They (the Kurds) want their state alongside Iraq, Turkey etc, the Palestinians (and the rest of the Arab world) want their state to replace the state of Israel.

This entire comparison is actually upside down. Iraq, Turkey, Iran are against the creation of a Kurdish state. The Arab has always been against the creation and existence of a Jewish state. The difference is the Jews won their struggle for independence, the Kurds have not yet.

 

Not 'The Palestinians' want their state to replace Israel...some do. Maybe even most...BUT NOT ALL.

Or are you such an ignoramus to actually think that every single Palestinian wants to destroy Israel?

Yes or no?


Btw...are you Jewish?

 

The Brits betrayed both the Arabs and the Kurds.

Remember the Sykes Picot Agreement?

 

this is entirely correct and we will never ever even consider hurting Turkey Iran Iraq in the slightest way (so far its been the other way around) after we gain our independence cos they will be our neighbors and we Well recognize them as well soon after we declare independence but they probably refuse to do the same in the first place but in the end they have no choice but to.

 

Based on the latest poll 2/3 of the Palestinians won't accept a two state solution. Of the remaining 1/3 of the Palestinians who will, 90% won't compromise on the right of return...which will lead to de-facto creation of two arab states.

Dont' be silly, such generalizations are normal in political debates. When you say Americans speak english you don't make a disclaimer that some americans don't, do you? When the majority (let alone overwhelming majority) of a country believes in something it's legitimate to generalize it as the country's beliefs. Of course no normal person means or should interpret it as a claim that every single f*ing individual in that country shares exactly the same belief.

That said the hatred of Israel in the Arab world is so widespread and overwhelming that no disclaimer is needed.

 

Link?

Yes, I realize attempting exactitude apparently taxes your abilities too much...not mine.

No shock there.



And are you Jewish ( for the second time)?

Or is the question too complicated for you?

 

the survey found that 61 percent of Palestinians do not accept the "two states for two peoples" formula that has thus far driven the peace process.

An even larger 66 percent said that while they would accept a "two-state solution" as a first step, they would want to eventually move on to replacing Israel with a single Palestinian state.

http://www.politicalforum.com/lates...oll-palestinians-reject-2-state-solution.html

There are no jews in Kazakhstan, silly.

 

A simple 'no' would have sufficed.


So a non-Jew living in Kazakhstan is obsessed with Israel and (apparently) hates Palestinians.

Gotcha.

 

Do you think a good Kazakh muslim can't criticize Islam and be on Israel's side in the conflict? Do you think all muslims think and act alike? I hope that's not what you mean cause this would be bigotry and racist stereotyping of Muslims.

 

Of course not - only a total and complete moron would believe he/she knows what a large group of people thinks that he/she has never even met.


BTW - I think EVERY major religion is a complete and total waste of time and that anyone who follows ANY of them is either weak and/or ignorant and/or desperate.

 

Perhaps but i wouldnt take much stock in polls. When a rejectionist party actually gets into power in the weest bank then youll have a fair argument. Not that that would matter because Israel isnt going away.

Its really not the same of palestinians in a number of ways.

Anyway, I want to ask you, what do you think are the fair borders of a final settlement and why?

 

i just would like to add "shame on the Arab countries" for not condemning these brutal atrocities done against Muslim kurds , if they are not prepared to defend us today why turn us Muslims back then and leave us for turks Persians Iraqis and Syrians to butcher us , we would have been better off been Zoroastrians .

and i did not hear any Arab country condemn the recent killing by turkish tyrant army of 35 innocent civilian kurds in kurdistan region of turkey ..... but the EU parliament did.

i hope my 40 million stateless nation wake up and reconsider their religion one last time .

 

Kurdish or Israeli? LOL just kidding.

Something along the lines of the Clinton's parameters, 1967 borders, major settlement blocks adjacent to Israel, equitable land swap, divided Jerusalem as dual capital, generous financial compensation in lieu of the right of return....

PS in all honesty I don't find it fair for a number of reasons, I find it realistic and I believe 90% of the Israeli population and Israel's supporters would gladly settle for that if it would truly end the conflict.

 

Fascinating.

I agree completely with this. Its a wonder what were really arguing about so much. Good post.

Surely if Israelis offered this and then israeli security was still at threat the world could have no further complaints against you.

 

Don't call me Shirley

Surely Israelis offered something very close to this and if the offer was not perfect a counter-offer from Arafat would have been nice.

And unfortunately I don't see the world and its opinion through pink glasses. The world did nothing during the Holocaust, the world created Israel and left it alone to fend for itself when it was invaded in 1948 (and then in 1967). The world lauded the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon but was not on Israel's side when Katyusha rockets were falling on Israeli towns, the world applauded the withdrawal from Gaza but could not care less when thousands of Qassam rockets started falling on Israeli towns. The world is impotent and indifferent at best, duplicitous, short-sighted, full of double standards and dishonesty at worst.

And lest we forget that while you and I support a two-state solution, to many Palestinians and palestinian supporters it's an anathema.

 

Well indeed, but the position of the palestinians didnt allow them to just come up with something whenever you felt like it, besides there was no rush.

The world did not do nothing, we were fighting and dying in our millions and for the most part hardly new about it. Youre not the only ones who suffered in those days.

Some of us then gave you a land with alot of people already on it and decided you could all move there.

As for 67 etc, lets leave it for another time. I agree with you about today, but youre israeli propaganda just doesnt stand up to even your own historians research.

What exactly did you want us to do re Katusha rockets? Stop them ourselves? Should we while doing that also cleared you off the territories youve taken since 1947?

Please Borat, no more acting like the victim. Israelis have never fought a defensive war and have never been the victim.

You do keep using that poll of yours dont you? Do you actually know any palestinians? What do yu think Khalil would say?

 

My post was in response to your previous claim regarding 'world opinion'. As is quite clear from my post and your response world opinion is:

1. useless, you admit there is nothing you can and nothing you want to do

2. hostile, baseless, uninformed, based on double-standard...

3. Can't be changed by Israeli actions no matter how unilateral and positive they may be (i.e. the withdrawal from Gaza, Lebanon, Clinton/Barak peace proposal)

4. The world is impotent, all talk, no action, the only country that matters is the US and its opinion is firmly in Israel's favor.

5. If Israel followed world opinion, there'd be no Israel today, it would be the 24th arab state at best, glass parking lot at worst.

It's quite obvious that regardless of what Israel does short of committing suicide, the Muslim world won't make true peace with Israel, will keep seeking opportunities to destroy Israel and hostile uninformed duplicitous world opinion won't suddenly swing in Israel's favor.

Given the combination of #1, #2 and #3 above, Israel is usually making the correct decision to ignore world opinion and do what's in their national interests, just like all other governments on the planet do in far less precarious circumstances.

Despite world opinion they've been successful beyond belief for the last 64 years so if you think world opinion matters - think again.

 

Theres plenty we can do, but we would rather for the palestinians, lebanese and syrians. Because theyre cause is just, yours is unjust - its that simple. Theres little we want to do for you, because for you is against so many other people. How can you expect us to agree to your expansions and settlements over the years given the UN charter?

Hostile, depends on what to. Baseless, no. Uninformed, no. Double standard, no.

You seem to think the world is stupid enough not to see through that propaganda you mention. Gaza? Still a prison. You ended the casefire, then you invaded and smashed the place. Lebanon? Your still on Lebanese land. Clinton etc? You walked away, its your fault and no one else's.

Its basic facts like these you refuse even to acknowledge and just keep repeating your lines as if the world is too dumb to see what youre really doing.

Well of course we cant do anything, the US is protecting you because of its influential jewish and christian minorities. And its paid for it with 9/11 and 12 years of war plus billions in aid.

Would you rather we dispensed with the UN and went against the USA too? Havent the Americans suffered enough for you?

Well of course. You seem to miss the crucial element in this story, here it is;

Youre not the good guys - youre the bad guys. Weve conceded to you all the land you took in 48 and you still want more.

You seem to think 24 arab states is alot, forgetting that morally its not the states its the amount of people that counts - nothing else. thats why world opinion is against you.

Um no. Both the muslim world and the rest have long accepted your original take. Theyve offered you peace again and again. You still pretend your under threat to justify the extra land you want etc etc. For example, to justify your desire to have all Jerusalem you tell everyone you were attacked in 67. Its little lies like that you think no one sees through.

The world can accept some of the early gains youve made, it wont accept the rest. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Well indeed. As long Israel is an aggresive land hungry nation constantly presenting itself as a victim the will have to ignore the world opinion that sees through its constant bluster.

By the way, Israels national interest has never been in settling the Golan, Sinai, the west bank or Gaza. Yet it has done it. Why? Because land is historically its primary concern, not peace.

I agree world opinion doesnt matter. Israel has its backer, its backer has paid the price for Israeli policy. Cest la vie.

 

Arabs oppose a Kurdish state in the Middle East. Arabs aren't willing to accept any one in the middle east unless they are in a position of domination. It's called Arab Exceptionalism.

 

Pardon me, interesting thread. However, if I may: The 1973 Yom Kippur war was purely defensive. And they were this close to being the victim. However, as you point out, they have never actually been the victim. And chas v'chalilah that they ever are.

Carry on.