Why did Japan bomb Pearl Harbor?

It wasn't the Japanese......they were framed by the North Koreans. Am I the only one that sees this?

 

On the decks, in the hangars, the real issue here was that they were not in a position to either intercept the attacking aircraft, or follow them back to their carriers. On the deck or in the hangar, the fact remains that they were not in the air where they belonged, fighting the enemy.

And the wargame you are referring to is the wrong one. You are apparently talking about the one that Admiral Yamamoto called for which many have claimed in the years afterwards was rigged. I am referring to the ones done at the US Naval Staff College.

http://www.academia.edu/1184454/The...xed_Japanese_Wargaming_of_the_Midway_Campaign

I have been trying to remember where I saw the report on the USNSC wargames, and I want to say it was in either Proceedings or Marine Corps Gazette, in the mid-late 1980's. The actual article was the role of wargames (and the just coming out computerized wargames) in military training.

 

The Japanese strike aircraft were being rearmed. This was done in the hangars...note that when attacked, the Japanese were most of an hour away from being able to launch any attacks. Due to violent maneuvering dodging attacks from carrier torpedo planes, the rearming was proceeding slowly.

WW2 Japanese carriers were, quite simply, floating tinderboxes. Like the British, they had enclosed hangar decks...but like the Americans, they had unarmored flight decks. The end result was the worst of both worlds. Their damage control techniques were poor, their firefighting ability minimal, and their ability to compensate for damage to firefighting equipment was nil. Note that Akagi was sunk by ONE HIT!

 

I am not responsible for you enabilty to follow a conversation.

So what what?

The people on the west coast at the time didn't.

You can't separate it.

To have stopped the Japanese from attaining their goals and forcing the US to accept their terms for peace.

 

Because of the failure of the Pearl Attack to get the Carriers and the failure to destroy the repair facilities and fuel dumps and then Midway. How many times do I have to repeat it?

What exactly do you think the goal of the Pearl attack and the Midway operation were all about? Forcing the US to accept the Japanese terms for peace.

 

I don't think anyone is asking why the battleships didn't accompany the carriers, just why they were in port when the carriers were not.

The primary purpose, the over-riding purpose of the Midway operation was to destroy the remaining US fleet which was the carriers. With the US fleet and primarily the carriers not patrol they would have free reign to supply anywhere they so choosed. But they would not have to have worried about it for long as the US would have had to come to terms.

Why do you think history writes the the war turned on Midway?

 

And in the hangers the bombs were not in protective bunkers as they were still in the process of changing out armaments.

 

You're responsible for asking your own stupid question when you obviously have not been following the conversation.

So what the statement you just made. So what if the attack on Pearl did not include an invasion and the Japanese were hoping for a peace settlement after the attack?

Feel free to prove that baseless statement.

One was before our nation was attacked in a surprise attack that killed some 200+ Americans. One was after. You're saying that that had no effect on American attitudes towards Japan? Don't be silly.

Explain why you "cannot separate" American attitude towards Japan before and after the attack.

Why would they not have time to do that? How would Japan have forced the US to accept its terms?

 

So it was bleak, but if it was just a little more bleak, THEN the US would have caved it.

Do buy it. Maybe others are impressed.

What their goal was and what would have happened after the surprise attack are totally different things.

 

No, that was exactly the question you butted in on with your silly "can battleships ferry aircraft" comment.

 

They had just finished fleet maneuvers. Also, it's a numbers game: there were six carriers and about two dozen battleships!

It did...and yet, it didn't. From day one, the Japanese had no chance. Their doom was assured the moment the first bombs fell on Pearl. They just couldn't keep up with US industrial production. They were already overextended, and could not make good their losses. The US could, and did. Note: the US and the Japanese each lost four fleet carriers in 1942! (US lost Lexington at Coral Sea, Yorktown at Midway, Wasp off Guadalcanal, and Hornet at Santa Cruz...Japanese lost Akagi, Kaga, Soryu and Hiryu at Midway.) But the US could replace the losses (Essex, the first of an astounding 24 carriers of her class, was commissioned 12/31/42), the Japanese could not.

 

It started when Japan invaded China in 1935, the USA carry out economic sanctions in order to force Japan to stop their aggression in China. Japan saw that Hitler and Italy were gaining their influence in Europe and Africa they seize that opportunity by attacking Pearl Harbour hoping that Hitler would succeed by that time in conquering all of Europe including UK and thus able to focus in invading mainland USA.

Unfortunate for Japan fortunate for China and the rest of the countries, Hitler started to lose the wars in Africa and Europe. Pearl Harbour was the USA main naval station that allows them to control the Pacific Ocean destroying all the ships in Pearl Harbour would allow Japan full control of the Pacific and defeat US embargo and flip it against the USA by blockading all US merchant ships from travelling from mainland USA to the Pacific.

Japan's master plan was to seize full control of China with China's resources and man power Japan will be able to expand their empire worldwide, Japan only succeeded in controlling 3/4 of China and was under constant attacked by Chinese ROC troops and guerilla fighters that kept Japan occupational force busy and bug down and the reason China was able to hold their ground against Japan was because of aid coming in from the USA that included US mercenaries fighter pilot that were known as the Flying Tigers they were able to single handedly defeat the numerical superior Japanese air force protecting supply lines against Japanese attacks.

Japan mistakes were they failed to destroy all the carriers and war ships thus allowing the USA to counter attack.
Japan never had full control of China.

 

All I can say is "What?".

Sorry, but this has to be the most distorted version of WWII in the Pacific I had ever read.

First off, Japan did not invade China in 1935. Japan had been one of the occupiers of China since 1902 (along with the US, UK and others), and they did not have to "invade". This multi-nation occupation came in the aftermath of the Boxer Rebellion, and was to help China regain stability until the regions were turned back over to a rightful Chinese government.

However, Japan was creative in it's rights to "chase bandits", and was by far the most brutal of the occupying nations.

As for Japan and Hitler and Italy, there was never much expected between the three nations other then some research sharing, and not attacking each other. Each was largely left alone to do whatever it was they wished. In fact, by the time that Japan had joined this alliance, Operation Sea Lion had already been indefinitely cancelled, and it was obvious that Germany was not going to invade England.

Japan's control of China was marginal at best outside of a few key cities. Chinese "bandits" continued to plague them during the entire war.

As for the American Volunteer Group, once again, the legend is more impressive then the actual truth. We are talking only of 3 squadrons, who are credited with destroying from 115-300 aircraft (I tend to believe the 115 number is closer to the truth). And they were only in existence for a little over 6 months, being absorbed into the US Army Air Corps in July 1942.

But "taking out the US fleet" was absolutely impossible, because only part of the US Fleet was in Hawaii in the first place!

You have missed the obvious, that so many have over the years, that Hawaii was not the only US Naval Base in the Pacific, not even close. We also had bases and ships in San Diego, Long Beach, all over the San Francisco Bay, even up to the Seattle area as well as others.

USS Langley, Based with the Manila Fleet in December 1941, operated in the region for 2 months ferrying aircraft before being sunk.

And most of our carriers at that time (Ranger, Yorktown, Wasp, Hornet) were based in the Atlantic, either undergoing sea trials (Hornet), or conducting patrols to keep the German U-boats at bay. So at most, the Japanese could only have caught 2 of our 8 carriers. However, let's look at some of our "Other Carriers", the escort carriers.

USS Long Island, home ported in Norfolk, Virginia.
USS Charger, home ported in Norfolk, Virginia.
USS Kitty Hawk, still finishing her shakedown cruise in New York at the time of Pearl Harbor.

And there you have all of the "aircraft carriers" the US had in December 1941. A total of 11, only 2 of which at the time were actively ported in Hawaii. In fact, only 4 of 11 were based in the Pacific at all, most were on duty protecting the East and Gulf coast from German submarines.

So where you get this idea of "destroying the US fleet" and "flipping the embargo and placing one on the US" is complete fantasy. If the US had not gotten involved in the war in Europe, the Japanese fleet would have been crushed by 1943, and all that would have been left was mopping up the islands and mainland. Japan never fought more then a fraction of the US industrial effort, and the smart admirals like Yamamoto knew it.

 

japan was one of the foreign occupiers since the 1900's and in 1935 they launch a full scale invasion of China that is when the foreign legation launch their protest of Japan's aggression the protest was not about China it was about protecting their own vested interest their territories. The only bandits were the Japanese and foreign occupiers local partisan Chinese were constantly harassing foreign troops.

China under the ROC had a good and strong relationship with Germany up until 1933-35 when Hitler seized power. before that China's number one European economic ally was Germany China have sign several deals with Germany that included modernizing their military, China model their system of government to that of Germany. When Hitler came to power Hitler cut all ties with China and sign a treaty with Japan. Japan see this as an opportunity to conquer China while the rest of Europe was falling under Hitler's hand the only nation standing was USA.

As I said the only bandits were the Japanese, and Chinese fighters continue to resist and harass the Japanese bandits and pirates this resulted in seriously affecting Japan's master plan their ability to gain new resources and man power was jeopardize and now they need to stop the Americans from supporting the ROC (Republic of China) by destroying the entire US Pacific fleet.

Not volunteer they were mercenaries the best mercenaries that fought on the side of China there outnumbered squadron was instrumental in stopping Japan from conquering the whole of China. They were later absorbed by the USA military after Japan bomb Pearl Harbor and the USA officially declare war on Japan.

Japan's intelligence report that all of the US carriers were in Pearl Harbor and it was the carriers that was their main objectives because without the carriers all the other war ships will be seating duck against Japanese fighters and dive bombers.

Sand Diego and San Francisco those are in mainland what you missed was Japan's master plan destroy the Pacific Fleet and Japan will be able to control the Pacific Ocean cutting all supply lines to China thus fulfilling their plan to gain lots of new resources to build more war materials including carriers, subs, war ships and fighter planes and probably long range bombers. China will be force to accept Japan and the worst case scenario is to have China fighting along side Japan.

The Manila fleets was also attacked almost the same time as Pearl Harbor the USA entire fleet could have been totally disabled if it was not for God that help save a few carriers and Japan made the wrong decision of trying to invade Midway.

Germany now you see, Japan is also doing Germany a favor by destroying most of USA fleet Germany which at that time has launch operation Wolf Pact with their U Boats attacking merchant ships to try to isolate UK into submission.

With out the Pacific Fleet, Japan and Germany will be able to deal with those mainland war ships

Yes and the failure of Japan to destroy the Pacific Fleet allowed the USA to counter attack with success.

I got mine from true history, the reason Japan attack the USA was because US embargo was seriously affecting their war schedule and the Pacific Fleet stand in their way. Yes, Yamamoto knew the strength of the USA that is why he wants total victory because his concept Japan can not afford to make a mistake against a super power like the USA and right he was Japan made mistake that included not destroying the entire Pacific Fleet.

 

Japan's failure to take out the carriers in the PH raid was a tactical mistake. As others have previously pointed out, it was IMO ultimately immaterial to the war, because even if the Japs had taken out 2-3 carriers on Dec 7th, it was simply a matter of time before vastly larger US manufacturing and shipbuilding flooded the pacific with new carrier groups and aircraft. This was a war that Japan simply was never going to win.

IMO, Japan's biggest mistake was not these tactical mistakes, but in attacking the US in the first place. IMO, it would have been better for Japan to collaborate with the other Axis powers and focus on Russian and China rather than engaging the biggest industrial nation on earth. Japan's attack on the US in Dec 1941 confirmed for the Soviets that they did not have to fear a Japanese attack in the eastern part of their empire, and they were able to move several divisions of battle hardened troops (from the early Russo-Japanese clashes in 1938 ) to the European Russian front where they were desperately needed and instrumental in stopping the Russian advance on Moscow. A Soviet collapse in 1941 or 1942 may not have been immediately strategically beneficial to Japan, but would have put the US in a very different footing in terms of its eventual role in the war.

 

Yes as I said the battleships can't ferry planes as the carriers were doing and the reason they were out of port at the time.

 

You don't say? So what?

 

Had Pearl been a total success and we had lost at Midway it would have been far more than just a little more bleak.

Dodge noted.

 

Nah.

Irrelevant question noted.

 

Japan did NOT attack the US looking for a protracted war. They attacked hoping to force the US to sue for peace under their terms. They were fully aware of the US industrial might but that would take time and had the Japanese been completely successful at Pearl and then had defeated us at Midway they could have done exactly that. Without a Pacific Fleet Hawaii would have been cut off from supply, the Philippines lost as did happen, Midway taken and Australia cut off. Japan wouldn't have just pulled back and waited for the US to rebuild.

THAT was their plan. It failed.

 

The US never would have sued for peace, especially after the surprise attack. The Japanese might have intended a lot of things, but they badly misread what America's reaction would be to such a unjustified attack.

 

Sorry, but there were bandits in China. Remember, China was at this time having a civil war of their own. And banditry was widespread, with minor and not so minor warlords scattered all over the country. As for what Japan saw as "Their Territories", that much is obvious. The Greater East-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere was to them "their territories". And this included everything from East Russia to North of Australia.

Wow, where did you get those figures? I invite you to page 16:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~shiue/Keller_Li_Shiue.pdf

China's largest trading partners were Japan (24.5%), the US (22%), then the UK (17%), totaling over 60% of imports. Germany was just 4.1%, falling behind even India. So while Germany was indeed "China's largest Continental trading partner", it is just a drop in the bucket when compared to that of the UK or US.

How about researching and using facts, instead of just making things up, eh? Then you are not caught in such egregious falsehoods. German trade was not even 1/5 of trade with the US.

In reality, German-Chinese relations took a dive during World War I, and never really recovered. Hitler did loan them money, and military assistance in the 1930's, and hoped they could be used as a source of food. He also hoped he could mediate any conflicts between them and Japan. However, the signing of the Tripartite Pact ended those once and for all.

This group was called the "American Volunteer Group", or informally the "Flying Tigers". And they were not "instrumental in stopping Japan from conquering the whole of China". They only operated out of a few fields along the Burma-Chinese border, and while instrumental in that area had little to no impact elsewhere.

Oh please-please-please give me a reference for that. The fact that the USS Saratoga had been in Bremerton since August was not a secret at all. They knew for a fact it would not have been in Hawaii on 7 December.

They thought the USS Enterprise might be in Pearl, since that was roughly her due date from Wake Island. She had left Pearl over a week earlier with a deck full of fighters to be brought to that island.

And they also knew the USS Lexington was not there, since it had left 2 days earlier to take fighters to Midway Island.

And as already discussed, the USS Langley had been in the Philippines for several months by this time.

So where you get the idea that "Japan thought the carriers would all be in Hawaii", I have no idea. They thought at most 1 might be there, but none of the others. Admiral Kimmel was intending to use the carriers to ferry as many fighters to the island outposts as possible in late 1941-early 1942. There was no evidence that the Navy ever intended to let the carriers stop this mission.

I am largely ignoring the rest of what you said, because it is based upon the same wrong data.

And no, you are not basing yours from "true history", your history is a complete fantasy. As I have shown, the US had more carriers in the Atlantic then in the Pacific, yet you continue to insist that Japan "planned to destroy the US fleet".

That was simply not possible, Japan could not even come close to US production. For every US carrier sunk (5) in 1942, the US built 5 replacements (15) in 1943. For every Japanese carrier sunk in 1942 (6), they built 1/3 replacements (2).

Admiral Yamamoto knew from when he was first told of the future war with the US that he could not win it. He told them from the beginning that he would run wild for 6 months, but after that he did not expect to win. He had lived in the US, and knew not only our industrial capacity (which dwarfed that of Japan), but also our character. He knew we would have swamped Japan with a tsunami of material and manpower, and he was correct.

So why you say he had even a thought of "total victory" shows that you know nothing of the war, or of the Admiral.

 

Not really, read the message I just posted about US replacement ships.

We lost 5 carriers in 1942, and launched 15 in 1943. And these are only the main battle carriers, not even the escort carriers (exact numbers are hard, but I believe we launched 50 escort carriers in 1942 alone).

Heck, between 1942-1944, the US launched 50 Casablanca class escort carriers alone. Even these would have been enough so swamp the Japanese fleet, not counting all of the other ships.

So no, loosing Midway would not have been a major blow, Japan could not have held it for long, and they knew it. No more then they expected to hold long in the Aleutian Campaign, which was yet another diversion and nothing else.

 

Honestly, I think we might have if it had not been a sneak attack, and if they had agreed to vacate the Philippines. But Japan was not going to do that, so the subject is moot as far as I can see. The Philippines was the main reason why they attacked the US in the first place.

 

If Japan had succeeded in totally taking out the Pacific Fleet it will also give Japan time to grow stronger sea, air and ground power and Germany would have succeeded in strangling UK into submission because the US would not have enough ships to escort supply vessels that was keeping the UK alive. China would have also capitulated too with all their supply lines cut off. The war would have drag longer and not ended in 1945.

Japan and Germany's made the same mistake Japan attack on the USA and Germany's invasion of Soviet Union.

Japan took their eye off Russia thinking that Germany would succeed both Germany and Japan's war plans failed when Japan failed to destroy the entire US Pacific Fleet instead it allowed the US to counter attack and destroyed the entire Japanese carrier task force allowing US bombers to hit mainland Japan. And with that, the USA finally send very needed military aid to Russia to help Russia defeat Germany before that aid from the USA was very minuscule enough only to fight a defensive war.