Why did Japan bomb Pearl Harbor?

Four carriers...by 1942, Langley had been reclassed as an aircraft transport. I'm not sure it was capable of flying off or landing aircraft at that point.

Escort carriers are good as convoy escorts, sub-hunters, and supporting ground troops, but totally unsuited to carrier-versus-carrier combat...if for no other reason than they top out around 18 knots!

 

Yes there were bandits in China and the largest bandits were Japan and other colonial occupiers that have chop China into different concession for themselves. The ROC had their hands full they had to fight the warlords, the local bandits, the communist and must satisfy Western occupiers giving in to their demands for more lands and at the same time fight Japan off. China refuse to be part of Japan's master plan of "The Greater East-Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere".

http://spot.colorado.edu/~shiue/Keller_Li_Shiue.pdf

The reason US and UK figures are large was because the UK had control of essential ports in China and they had treaties with China that force China to do business with them. While Germany without any territorial claim attached their relationship with China was more on mutual respect and understanding that is why modern China under the ROC was slowly leaning towards Germany from military training, supplies, modern machinery and technology.

Better check not only your facts but history as I said the only reason UK and US trade was larger was because of unfair treaty force upon China. After Hitler took power in Germany all trade with Germany drop before that it was steadily increasing until 1935 after that everything went to the USA.

Hitler saw the potential of Japan as an ally and China's leaders under Gen. Chiang Kai Shek reluctance to be a military ally of Hitler Germany that is why Hitler wasted no time to cut not only economic relationship but political ties.

Yes, they kept the supply line open allowing the ROC to continue with their fight against Japan and prevented Japan from fully conquering and controlling China. Japan's own supply lines and ability to acquire the resources they needed was seriously hampered with the presence of the Flying Tigers and also seriously affected the spirits of Japanese pilots because the Flying Tigers were able to take down the best that Japan threw at them killing many veteran Japanese fighter pilots.

Maybe you can give me a reference that Japan had no intention to destroy the entire US Pacific Fleet and their attack on Pearl Harbor was just a routine attack with no goal or mission just a random act of aggression.

There you go now you are talking my language.

Probably they knew all that and their plan was still to decimate the entire US Pacific Fleet.

Where did you get the idea that Japan did not know? There was a reason why Japan chose to attack in December because they knew according to their intelligence reports that the entire USA carrier group will be anchored at Pearl Harbor fro Christmas break and maintenance they knew the USA was not expecting an attack and will be complacent in doing just that put all their eggs in one basket.

Me I am not ignoring what you claim because history needs to be taught correctly.

I guess you do not read properly I said US PACIFIC FLEET you said and claim and want to understand that it was the entire US fleet.

That will be possible if they had destroy the the US Pacific Fleet this will allow Japan to fully control China and their resources, allow Germany to destroy vital merchant vessels going to UK I guess you just can't realized the bigger picture of Japan and Germany's war plan.

That is why Japan need China with China Japan will over take USA as the industrial and military super power. Not only China once Japan fully control China other South East Asian nations will be fully under their control and that would fulfilled their master plan to become stronger than the USA.

That is why presently the USA is concern with the growing power and influence of China.

Yamamoto accepted the mission and he wanted to make sure he destroy the entire US Pacific Fleet or if he failed then Japan will be in trouble and Yamamoto was correct his failure led to the destruction of Japan's carrier task force after that Japan never recover because the USA was in full control of the Pacific Ocean US bombers were able to destroy Japan's ship building capacity all Japan can produce are mini subs and small boats.

I know more than you do that is for sure.

ROC Chinese soldier 1930 their military equipment were all made in Germany

 

Once again, you are having major problems with your timeline.

By December 1941, the tide was already turning against Germany in the Battle of the North Atlantic. This was primarily because of SONAR, RADAR and escort carriers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle...ts_strike_back_.28March_.E2.80.93_May_1941.29

By 1942, Germany only had 12 of the Type IX U-boats (the only model they had capable of reaching the US). And half of them were tied up in the Mediterranean. And while sinkings increased in early 1942, by July the US had become fully engaged and was organizing convoys instead of sending individual ships up and down the coast and the losses shrank drastically.

And remember the fantastic rate at which the US was building ships. Over 50 escort carriers in 1942, that is more then 1 per week. In addition to destroyers, cargo ships, and all the other war material being built. It is obvious that you have absolutely no grasp of the amazing speed at which the US was producing equipment.

And the U-boat war was essentially over by 1943, not only because of the technology already mentioned but because of ENIGMA. In what was known as "Black May", the Kriegsmarine lost 25% of it's U-boats in a single month. 43 submarines were sunk in a single month, while the allies only lost 34 ships to submarines.

Let me say it once again: Research, research, research. Do not just make things up as you go along, because people like me that have studied this war for decades will continue to destroy your claims over and over again.

 

Actually, yes she could. She was classified as a "Seaplane Tender", but this was more a case of logistics then anything else (in 1941 her assigned task was providing scouts and ASW support). But she was still more then capable of supporting conventional aircraft.

When the USS Langley was sunk, she was returning to Australia after delivering 32 P-40 aircraft to Java when her group was attacked by 9 VAL divebombers.

 

You forgot to mention that Japan attack Pearl Harbor in 1941, so I would say the same to you research, research and research and don't stick with US or Western authored books.

 

Once again, complete nonsense, no verification, and even a source which contradicts your own claims.

That is from your own source, which is also mine for very obvious reasons. And once again, look at the percentages.
Germany: 4.1%
Belgium: 1.8%

Fractional and insignificant compared to the US trade alone, even combined. Your addition of "continental" completely distorts the importance of that trade. And Hitler increased the trade with China!

So why you continue to try and claim that he cut them off in 1938 I have no idea. He did not cut them off until 1940 when Japan joined the Tripartite Pact!

And trust me, I seriously doubt you know more of WWII then I do. I have made this period of history my main area of study for over 25 years now, starting serious study when I was stationed on the island where the bloodiest battle of the war was conducted. So you can parse words and play these stupid games all you like.

And BTW, the only serious resource that Japan needed from China was food. China was not a producer of metals at this time, had no oil, and only a limited amount of any other resources. The main resource goal of Japan was Indonesia, for the rubber and oil. China was mostly good for food and comfort women, not much else.

And you also seriously forget that there were 2 groups of rebels fighting Japanese occupation, and the US was not supporting one of them at all. I suggest you think about that seriously before you try to respond again.

Why, do books from other countries give different numbers?

 

Since your knowledge of WWII is very shallow and lacks in-dept understanding of the entire picture of WWII here I will share a simple timeline so that you may have a broader understanding.

Dec. 7, 1941 when Japan attack Pearl Harbor and declare war on the USA, Hitler was doing well in Europe;

September 19, 1941 - Nazis take Kiev.
September 29, 1941 - Nazis murder 33,771 Jews at Kiev.
October 2, 1941 - Operation Typhoon begins (German advance on Moscow).
October 16, 1941 - Germans take Odessa.
October 24, 1941 - Germans take Kharkov.
October 30, 1941 - Germans reach Sevastopol.
November 13, 1941 - British aircraft carrier Ark Royal is sunk off Gibraltar by a U-boat.
November 20, 1941 - Germans take Rostov.
November 27, 1941 - Soviet troops retake Rostov.
December 5, 1941 - German attack on Moscow is abandoned.
December 6, 1941 - Soviet Army launches a major counter-offensive around Moscow.
December 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor; Hitler issues the Night and Fog decree.
December 8, 1941 - United States and Britain declare war on Japan.
December 11, 1941 - Hitler declares war on the United States.
July 3, 1942 - Germans take Sevastopol.
July 5, 1942 - Soviet resistance in the Crimea ends.
July 9, 1942 - Germans begin a drive toward Stalingrad in the USSR.

As you can see in December 7, 1941 Britain and Russia were in serious trouble both Germany and Japan's main concern was the USA because it was the continue USA supplies to Britain and China that is stopping Japan and Germany's master plan from being completed. Germany needed the Russian continent for their needed resources to become master of the world. Japan needed China to become master of Asia.

Germany was relaying on getting some ethnic Soviets to allied with them which there were including Croatian Muslims and other Baltic groups. Stalin made sure that all Soviets will fight for him by giving them two choices fight the Germans or be executed by his loyal troops.

If Japan had succeeded in destroying the US Pacific Fleet, Hitler would be the only second man to ever conquered the Soviet Union after Kublai Khan. With the US Pacific Fleet destroy this would as I say allow Japan full control of the Pacific Ocean and cut off supplies to China forcing Gen. Chiang Kai Sheik to surrender and accept Japan's rule thus while the USA will have to quickly recuperate through their mainland manufacturing this would also allow Japan to expand war machines and Germany as well.

Germany started to fall back in the late 1942 and the reason was because the USA entered the war against the Axis Power and mainly because Japan failed to destroy the US Pacific Fleet.

Sorry to inform you but your understanding of the history of WWII is limited to basic history only.

 

Interesting timeline. Completely off topic and involving a totally different theatre, but nice timeline.

Notice, this thread is about Japan, not Germany. And as the Pacific theatre was primarily a naval action, we have also been concentrating on ships.

Now let me say this very-very slowly, ok?

What in the (*)(*)(*)(*) does the ground actions of Germany have to do with a Naval action?

Were we in a danger form those German troops suddenly turning and marching into the Atlantic and attacking our transports?

No.

Were those German forces suddenly going to get assistance from Japan in attacking the Soviet Union?

No.

Did those German forces suddenly turn into submarines and start to sink more transports?

No.

So kindly tell me what in the (*)(*)(*)(*) that timeline had to do with anything either under the topic of this thread, or in this discussion?

Nothing, just what I thought.

Now excuse me, but I think this discussion is pretty much over. And I do not feed the trolls if I can avoid it.

 

This is where we differ I have a broader sense in understanding the chain of events the relationship of events and success and failures of Germany and Japan has an affect in the outcome of WWII and base on the timeline Japan timing of attacking USA was in their determination the right time because it is only the USA that stand in their (Japan and Germany) way for total victory. USA continue support for UK, Russia and China is hampering the progress of Japan and Germany's war time schedule for success. The failure of Japan that instead of destroying the US Pacific Fleet which instead resulted in the destruction of their naval fleet allowed the Allies to slowly turn the war in their favor.

Yes it is about Japan and the actions of Japan has an affect on Germany's war strategy in Europe, Africa and Russia. There you go you finally got something right the Pacific war main strategy of success is naval actions and this is why Japan need to destroy the US Pacific Fleet to gain control of the sea that would allow them to expand their naval strength that would then help Germany to succeed in Europe and Russia.

Listen very carefully, German ground troops success depends on stopping USA supplies from reaching Russia and UK that is why Germany launch Wolf Pact with their U boats attacking all Allied ships now that is a naval action design to stop needed supplies from the USA from reaching UK and Russia, now do you understand the importance of Germany and Japan having to succeed and control the sea with sea control their war plans will not succeed and that is what happen they failed to control the sea.

Yes.

Yes

German had a fleet of U Boats I thought you knew that and did they sunk many transport, yes have you not read that US warship had to escort transport ships sailing to England.

Ok I will slowly repeat that time line has to do with your claim that Germany was doing poorly when Japan attacked Pearl harbor that is one the second one is your elementary understanding of the history of WWII. That timeline show just how Japan and Germany would have benefited if Japan had succeed in destroying the US Pacific Fleet which according to you that was not Japan's plan and it would seem you are implying that Japan only wanted to attack with no reason.

I still have hope for you.

I am always open to everyone this include trolls because they too need proper education.

 

Both sides badly miss read each others intentions. The US moved the fleet to be a deterrent. The Japaneses saw a target. The Japanese thought the US a soft society that would take the easy road after the attack. The US saw a cowardly act and reacted with a national purpose not often seen in her history.

 

It was IMO more possible without the sneak attack. But FDR was looking for an excuse to engage in the war because he realized the risks, even if the general populace didn't. A Japanese DOW, followed by an attack on Pearl hours later, coupled with a German DOW a couple days later, committed the US to war. It is unlikely to me that the US would have sued for peace in an agreement that basically conceded asia to the Japs.

 

Without a sneak or surprise attack Japan would not succeed, yes the USA have a gut feeling what Japan was up to they know that it was a matter of time that Japan will declare war on the USA what the USA did not expect was a surprise attack because they underestimated Japan it is IMO that the USA thought Japan with its discipline society and military Bushido code will not resort to an dishonourable action such as a surprise attack on Pearl Harbour without first officially declaring war which Japan attempted to do they plan to officially declare war and at the last second after the declaration launch the attack this would make it legitimate on their part.

Japan and Germany have since the late 1930's have been attempting to get the USA to join them, accept their actions as a necessary means to "tame" the world or for the USA to stay neutral by not interfering have failed. Japan and Germany figure the only way to win the war in Europe, Russia and Asia is to isolate the USA and to do that they need to control the sea.

 

Wow, you really did put that jumbled mess into 2 sentences.

First off, I doubt that more then 10% of the population was aware of what "Bushido" was prior to the 1970's. And it is obvious that you have no understanding either.

Anybody who has studied Bushido will tell you that making a "surprise attack" is in fact something honorable. I present to you, the writings of Miyamoto Musashi, specifically the Fire Book in his "Book of Five Rings":

And even more important, same book, further down:

This is why what you are saying makes absolutely no sense, because anybody who has actually studied Bushido would know that the exact opposite is true. In fact, in the Book of Five Rings, the word "honour" only appears a single time:

In other words, as long as you win and advance those over you, you have honor. The only dishonor is in loosing.

And please, give me a reference for Japan and Germany trying to court the US into their camp. Because the US and Japan had been trading shots since at least 1937, and our relationship with Germany was not much better.

[video=youtube;WujTPNkjSeM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WujTPNkjSeM[/video]

 

Not according to the Japanese. And yes had they succeeded at Pearl and Midway along with the Philippines the US could very well and probably would have had to meet their peace terms.

 

And when did those 15 see active duty? By then too late. It was Midway that put a stop to Japan's plans.

 

Even if not for Midway, Japan was still doomed. Because they were simply incapable of replacing their losses, while the US replaced theirs many times over.

Just look at the Shinano. Originally planed as the third Yamato class Battleship, after the losses of Midway Japan converted her to a carrier. The keep was laid in 1940, conversion started in 1942, and she was launched in 1944, almost a year ahead of schedule.

And since it was not completed, she was sunk 10 days later. 4.5 years, and she was still not complete.

Compare to the USS Missouri, laid at about the same time. Keel in 1940, commissioned in 1944, participated in the Battle of Okinawa. And she was 1 of 4 ships of her class, all commissioned before the end of the war.

And remember, this is in addition to the 18 Essex class fleet carriers which were commissioned during the war (another 6 were finished after the war, and 8 were scrapped after the end of the war before completion).

So even if Japan had won at Midway, it did not matter. That was the beginning of the end, but not the "game winner" like so many like to make it seem. Even if Japan had sunk every US carrier and lost none, she was still doomed.

And when did they see service? Well, the USS Essex was commissioned in December 1942.

In 1943, 6 Essex class carriers were commissioned (Yorktown, Intrepid, Hornet, Lexington, Bunker Hill, Wasp).

In 1944, 7 Essex class carriers were commissioned (Franklin, Ticonderoga, Randolph, Hancock, Bennington, Bon Homme Richard, Changri-La).

In 1945 before the end of the war, 3 were commissioned (Boxer, Antietam, Lake Champlain). And 2 more after the war (Princeton, Tarawa).

And this is all of a single class of fleet carrier! And not counting the replacement Midway class carriers which were all built from 1943-1945/7 at the same time. The first two (Midway, Franklin D. Roosevelt) went from keel laying to commissioning in less then 2 years! October 1943-September 1945 for Midway, December 1943 to October 1945 for FDR.

And these dates are not for "launching", but "commissioning", that is when the ship is ready to go and fight the enemy.

The USS Yorktown (CV-10) was commissioned in April 1943, and by October was conducting air operations off of Wake.
USS Intrepid was commissioned in August 1943, and by January 1944 was involved in operations off the Kwajalein Atoll.
USS Lexington was commissioned in February 1943, and was attacking Tarawa in September, and Wake in October of 1943.

When I give these dates, it was not the launched date, but commissioning. At that point she is ready to go into combat (but this generally took about 3 months, to assemble the rest of the ships of her fleet and to transit the Panama Canal).

 

Twelve of the Essex-class saw combat in WW2...Essex was in action a year after Midway.

 

So now you are Bushido expert too?? Wow you can't even understand the wider scope of Japan's war plans and the reason why they attacked Pearl Harbor and now you want to talk about Bushido! You know not what you are talking about.

US diplomats trusted Japan the US had this impression that Japan if they want war they will do it in an official manner and Japan did just that they attempted to time the attack with the last second declaration of war which did not went according to Japan's plan the attack was supposed to come after a few seconds the war declaration is submitted not the other way around.
The key to success in WWII was controlling the sea Japan knew that, Germany knew that, Britain and the USA absolutely knew that.

 

You would be absolutely right. Virtually the first serious book in English about Samurai culture did not appear until 1977. Nitobe Inazō, older work, claimed to have been read by FDR was not reprinted again in English until the mid 1980's. Even then it strikes me as heavy on romanticism and light on reality. He tries to put Bushido in the same mind set as the concept of chivalry

 

I was actually talking about Bushido as a concept, not as was practiced in Showa era Japan.

In 1975, James Clavell wrote the #1 best seller "Shogun", and in 1980 the miniseries was made. This brought a lot of the culture (including The Book Of Five Rings) into the American consciousness. The US literally went "Samurai Crazy" from the mid 1970's onwards, and there were 5 sequel books published. Mostly known before that for war books and a horror story, that set the stage for the rest of his career.

And I am simply ignoring the Troll. All he is doing is knee-jerk reacting and denying anything I say, ignoring any references while providing none himself. Just the fact that he has no idea what Bushido is, cites it incorrectly then blasts me when I actually provide quotes from Miyamoto Musashi and tries to tell me I do not know what I am talking about shows his head is in the wrong location of his body.

Not to mention those incredible run-on sentences are making my eyes ache.

 

"Not according to the Japanese."?

Good source. They turned out to be right about everything.

 

There had been a stir about Chinese & Japanese visual arts after the Napoleonic (Empire) period. There were some novels & articles @ that point, not sure how much those discussed real Japanese society/government. Certainly we & the West in general had military attaches with Japanese forces when they struck the Imperial Russian Navy @ Tsushima, drove out the Russians from Korea, took over chunks of Manchuria, Korea, China. Those reports would make interesting reading, they clearly indicated that the Japanese military had absorbed modern military lessons well, & were adept @ ambushes, artillery, air ops.

We also had well-prepared diplomatic & military personnel on scene in China, Korea in the 1930s & 1940s. These were often the children of Chinese missionaries, who were often fluently bilingual & knew the cultures well. I remember the general surprise when Prexy Carter mentioned in passing that he had prayed & donated since childhood for the evangelization of China. (The US participated in the suppression of the Boxer Rebellion in China, & helped end Japan's voluntary isolation from the World by sailing into harbor there. With warships, an unfortunate christening into modern politics, & probably an underlying cause for Japan's rush to modernize its military & heavy industry.)

This expertise was mostly lost in the post-WWII debacle of blame over who "lost" China & then Korea, as if they were ours to lose in the first place.

 

And all of that is true, no debate from me here.

However, while our military (especially the 4th Marine Regiment - a unit I was attached to for a year) was active in China, they were not so active in Japan (which included Chosen). And most people by the 1960's had completely forgotten about the once close US-China relationship.

In fact, I generally tie the future of wars in the 20th Century to the Boxer Rebellion. The once tenuous US-UK relationship was really created during that conflict, and it was when the US really started to advance itself as a major world power. And in addition Japan also used it for the same reason, but at the negotiation table was more then a little insulted when the Europeans largely carved up China among themselves, leaving them out of it.

But when I was talking about Japanese culture and the American recognition of it, I was talking about the common American, not those military and historians who have actually studied them. I bet before around 1975, few people could have told you what Ki was, or a Katana, and if they referred to the ritual suicide of a warrior they would have called it "Hara-Kiri". Today I think I hear more people refer to it as Seppuku then the vulgar term once common.

I also separate the Bushido of Showa era Japan from that of the Shogunate prior to the Meiji Restoration. Bushido under the Shoguns was a very ritualistic feudalism, where everybody answered to somebody else, other then the Shogun who only lightly answered to the Emperor.

In the Taisho and Showa era Japan, the Emperor "reigned supreme", though various "Ultra-Nationalist" organizations such as the Sakurakai (Cherry Blossom Society) and Yokusan seijikai (Imperial Rule Assistance Political Association) actually ran the day to day operations of the country. Basically the Emperor was about as important to running the country as the President pro tempore of the United States Senate is to the running of the US Senate.

Sit back, observe, mention to advisors if he was not happy with something, and to not interfere unless the politicians are deadlocked and can't reach a decision.

These are the little things that even today most people have no understanding of, and they are critical to understanding how the early Showa era Japan functioned.

 

they just woke up one morning and said this is a good day to ruin America's life

 

Yeh thats the spin isnt it?

In June 1941 when the USA saw germany was loosing introduced Lend lease but the Biggest money spinner was the USA continued to loan hitler and the Nazis Money and Materials up to 1945

Wall street and several american companies financed hitler.

Its all a matter of record.

We knew the jap naval codes before they attacked and the Jap attack plan was talked about in newspapers, but like 911 the only people who didnt know about it was the government.