Why do you believe in God ?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by bricklayer, Feb 18, 2018.

  1. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Such as? You know having a differing opinion on matters isn't considered an "error" on anyone's part....right?

    Nothing is being forced on me.
    Someone's life is being denied because someone chooses to snuff it out just like some slave's freedom and well being is
    being denied because some slave master chooses to keep him a prisoner.

    Maybe someday you will understand.
     
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have not addressed the argument. We are not talking about a situation where the life of the mother is at serious risk due to a known issue. We are talking about the general risk - that there is a slight chance of death - or harm - from childbirth.

    Then you say "I'd say" - The fact of the matter is that it is not your choice. It is the woman's choice as to whether or not she wants to risk harm to herself.

    There is no doubt that the risk to the fetus is greater than the risk to the woman. The fetus will die 100% The woman has a very good chance of survival.

    The question is whether or not the woman can be compelled to take such a risk - and your have not addressed this question with anything coherent as of yet.
     
  3. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Because that is what YOU are posting!

    You are the one DEMANDING that women must be DENIED their RIGHTS to make a CHOICE.

    Or are you now denying your own anti-choice position in this thread?
     
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  4. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Should I explain all over again. I can't make things any simpler.

    Maybe if I pointed out that the fates of the child in the womb and the slave in the plantation fields are analogous to one another in that their fates depend entirely on the whims of their respective masters?

    But then you've have to know what analogous means and you'd have to admit that the rights to their own bodies has been settled in the case of slaves yet we are still waiting for the humanity of the unborn to be recognized too.

    The abortion rate has fallen to it's lowest point since 1973 and the long curve of history is on the pro life side. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...n-rate-falls-to-lowest-level-since-roe-v-wade

    Abortions should be legal and rare. I think Bill Clinton might have said that.
     
  5. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    This is what I've always understood.

    So you disagree with my view that killing someone is more damaging to a body than giving birth?
    Hmmm....interesting. Well I guess we all know now that you can't be counted on for a rational discussion, all your claims to the contrary
    notwithstanding.

    Oh, okay. Never mind.

    I completely disagree with your assessment of my argument.
    If a woman does not abort in a timely and humane manner, at the earliest practical moment, then, yes, she can be compelled by law. And should be compelled by law and by all notions of morality and humanity in a civilized society. Is that clear enough for you?
     
  6. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    If you actually bothered to learn my position on the matter, instead of angrily and reflexively shouting your accusations at me,
    you would know that I am not doctrinaire about my views on abortion.
    I feel that aborting before a fetus develops a central nervous system and brain and all the other things that makes one human
    is unfortunate, from a humanistic perspective, but completely proper and legal, as it should be.

    Once a fetus passes that point of development however, abortion should be outlawed, except of course in cases where the health of the woman is in jeopardy. So now you know. Try not to forget.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well ... this is not an argument. An argument consists of 2 things 1) statement of claim or premise and 2) evidence, rational, support that either proves the claim true or shows that the claim is true.

    Here you make a statement of fact "she can be compelled by law" Got it but this does not address the self defense argument. Stating " this is a law" is not an argument for anything. It is an appeal to authority fallacy.

    Then comes your claim 2) Should be compelled by law

    OK .. now where is the second part "Why should a woman be compelled by law to risk death and/or harm" to herself.
     
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  8. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you look up definitions of child and someone.
     
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  9. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    First show me how either of those words, child and particularly someone, that doesn't even show up in my post,
    are in question.
     
  10. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Because no child is affected nor is someone's life being denied.
    Not in any legal manner.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
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  11. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    I guess the part about "morality and humanity in a civilized society" just flew over your head, huh.
    And I guess the fact that abortions are legal and available to all women in the United States, therefore the risk to any woman is minor at best if addressed early enough didn't make an impression on you.

    And I suppose the fact that there is another human being with rights all his or her own than must be weighed in this question that simply are being ignored by pro choice people is also lost on you. Is that all reason enough?

    Since we both have established and agree that the potential damage done to a fetus by a woman is infinitely greater than the damage that a fetus could inflict on her (except is a case where the mother's health is endangered and then this all wouldn't apply anyway) we agree the fetus deserves protection under the law
    (as it indeed has).

    This is not manifestly self evident to you?
    That the state has a duty and legal obligation to protect those that cannot protect themselves? (yes, as in the case of slaves that were emancipated, for example)
    And that a child in vitro falls under that definition in spades and that the only way to accomplish this is to make it illegal for any doctor or medical service to perform an abortion past a certain point in the life of that unborn child?

    You could not intuitively figure this all out on your own?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  12. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Pssshhh...Word games. Pretty weak.

    There is human life at stake in vitro. The state has a duty and responsibility to protect and defend those that don't have the power to speak for themselves, i.e. slaves of any sort, a human fetus, a senior citizen who has been enfeebled by old age, etc.

    I like that our government stands up for the weaklings and ignored among us. Too bad you don't.
     
  13. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    They have a duty to protect humans and their rights 1st.
    A potential future human is 2nd. And is afforded all legal protections the mother gives it as it should be.
     
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  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course it did not fly over my head.

    Blubbering platitudes in relation to morality and civilized society does not show is not a coherent justification for why you think forcing a woman to engage in an activity that might result in her death or result in significant harm should be mandated by law.

    What would make an impression on me is if you actually made an argument.. rather than repeating your claim over and over again as if repetition makes that claim true.

    In my opinion morality and humanity in a civilized society is respect for individual liberty ... which means not forcing a woman into an activity which might result in her death.


    Now you are trying to make an argument here .. but then you get side tracked by ad hom and false narrative.

    I stated previously that that this is a case of conflicting rights - the rights of the mother vs the rights of the fetus.

    What you have failed to provide is a legitimate resolution to this conflict.

    The mothers health is always endangered .... that is the whole point of the self defense argument ?
     
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  15. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    A life in vitro IS human.
    already and the only reason to call it a potential future human is to deny that human it's rights in the present so a woman can have unfettered
    access to abortions.

    And it's the law, not the mother, who protects the life of the unborn should that mother choose, long past her deadline to decide, she
    doesn't want to bother with the life she is carrying.
     
  16. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    Blubbering platitudes? Who is being pissy now? Isn't it perfectly obvious enough that the woman who is pregnant is not the only party who has rights, life and death rights, in jeopardy?
    There is a balancing act between a mother's right to terminate the life she carries and the unprotected life in the womb who is at the mercy of her whims. A right to abort up to a certain medically set date, and not thereafter, is a good compromise to strike.


    What can I say? You are free to leave at any point.

    This sounds like it came straight out of a pre Civil War slave holder's Big Book of Blubbering Platitudes. My individual liberties end where they come into conflict with the very existence of other beings around me.


    I've given the best resolution possible
    under the circumstances. Abortion only to save the life and health of the woman and only at the earliest possible moment before the child begins to develop neurologically (doctors need to set that limit).
    How many times have I suggested this? Many, many times. Therefore is your comment about failure to provide resolution fair?
    No. It is not.


    Yes...but only in a potential way and I've stated this over and over again too. Maybe you need to move on.
     
  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    It has the rights the host, mother, grants it.
    And it is a potential future human. But yes its human cells up to a point.
     
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  18. Your Best Friend

    Your Best Friend Well-Known Member

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    And the state guarantees rights of the unborn if the mother acts irresponsibly and decides well into the pregnancy she would like to abort.
    It's too late then.
     
  19. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Never said otherwise .
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  20. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You will never understand what the rest of the world knows, that there is a difference between the born and unborn....it really is quite SIMPLE....
     
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  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    NO, the state does NOT guarantee the rights of the unborn because they have NONE.
    The state offers PROTECTIONS and those are NOT RIGHTS...."protections"" and ""rights"" are two different words, they are even spelled differently....look them up and LEARN...
     
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  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    WTF should abortions be rare ? There should be exactly as many abortions as women who want them....

    Falling abortion rates have nothing to do with the hilariously named "pro-life" group....
     
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  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    So you're for FORCING women to give birth as slave owners forced their slaves to give birth.....

    NOW how does the law COMPEL women to give birth.. the ONLY way is to incarcerate them, tie them down until they are FORCED to give birth....you sure like FORCE....
     
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  24. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Abortion is at it's lowest level thanks to Obamacare providing free contraception. If that anti-abortionists really wanted to reduce abortion they would be promoting the free availability of LARC's, as well.

    The long curve of history actually proves that abortion will always happen regardless of the protests of those opposed to women's rights.
     
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  25. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Then why are you ranting about slavery and likening abortion to it?
     
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