Why Should Men Have ANY Say In Abortion?

Because abortion is murder, and ALL good people have a say when millions of innocent children are murdered.

How ignorant.

 

It's only ignorant to believe "children" are aborted.....and only the pregnant woman decides whether she wants to abort the fetus or not. It's none of your business and affects you in no way whatsoever.

 

Senior Citizen, Adult, Teenager, Kid, Child, Toddler, Fetus, Zygote.........

What do all of these have in common:

THEY ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGS, regardless of their age or stage of development.

Abortion is murder. Period. Wise up.

 

What is different about them?

Some of them are inside the bodies of other people, possibly with or without that other person's consent. Hmm...it seems we have reached a dilemma!

 

Let me know when you find a senior citizen, an adult, a teenager, a kid, a child or a toddler living inside of another person . .and if you do the answer would still be the same, the person they are living inside of would have the right to remove them.

 

*shock*

Imagine that. Abortion isn't the black and white issue that many on both sides try to make it out to be.

 

If a homeless person wanders into your abode during a freezing blizzard and kicking them out would mean certain death to them, do you have the right to do it or should you be obligated to wait until conditions change to the point where they can survive outside? I think most would agree you wouldn't be obligated if that person forced their way in uninvited and threatened you, but should you have the right to kick them out and kill them even if you originally invited them inside and they've behaved as a good guest?

 

Sure it is, women have a right to end their pregnancies, a right to defend themselves from injury, a right to live their lives as others live theirs.

 

Right?

They continue to ignore that little factor there which makes abortion an issue in the first place. They ignore it because it doesn't glide with their self-righteous statements that "Women are murders and women are just killing babies."

See, if you keep ignoring the fact that the issue stems from having a person (if you want to call it that) inside another person's body...I mean really. Everyone has a problem with murder and killing babies, but some people have no problem with abortion or self defense of one's own autonomy. That is why there is an issue and a discussion in the first place.

But I guess some people don't want to have a discussion and just want to sit around demonizing all women as horrible evil monsters, oh and falsely accusing choicers of being murderers as well.

All they have is ad hom and ridiculous hyperbole. No rational thought processes whatsoever.

 

The problem with the self defense arguement is that it leads to other confusing arguements.

 

Only for you.

 

No it doesn't.

 

Yes it does. Arguing pregnancy is an injury because "it goes against her body autonomy", combined with Fugazis arguements about legal cases, combined with me debating this topic, gives me panic attacks. I argue abortion should be illegal because "the woman is responsible for herself getting pregnant", and then other people argue "consent to risk isnt consent to injury", and "innocence is irrelevant with injury" comparing an innocent baby to an "injury" just BC the woman doesnt want to be pregnant for her selfish evil garbage excuse reasons, is so morally bankrupt, even debating the issue confuses me and gives me panic attacks.

 

Obviously....so maybe you should just mind your own business when it comes to women having abortions and you can calm down.....

 

If you know it confuses you and gives you panic attacks, then it's time to take a step back. Too many people on both sides of this issue overreact out of emotion and then come across as irrational which is useless to advocating their respective viewpoints.

I agree with you that it's not accurate to describe any pregnancy as an injury. However, if a pregnancy is unintended and there was never any point where the mother intended to create a child, then the attachment of the unborn person to her is not consensual, and therefore a form of assault. If we had the technology today to transplant a zygote or fetus into an artificial womb, we'd be obligated to make our best effort to save it like any other premie, but unfortunately that's not possible right now. It will be in the future.

 

No pregnancy is an injury???


Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:
•exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
•altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
•nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
•heartburn and indigestion
•constipation
•weight gain
•dizziness and light-headedness
•bloating, swelling, fluid retention
•hemmorhoids
•abdominal cramps
•yeast infections
•congested, bloody nose
•acne and mild skin disorders
•skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
•mild to severe backache and strain
•increased headaches
•difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
•increased urination and incontinence
•bleeding gums
•pica
•breast pain and discharge
•swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
•difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
•inability to take regular medications
•shortness of breath
•higher blood pressure
•hair loss
•tendency to anemia
•curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
•infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
•extreme pain on delivery
•hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
•continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:
•stretch marks (worse in younger women)
•loose skin
•permanent weight gain or redistribution
•abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
•pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
•changes to breasts
•varicose veins
•scarring from episiotomy or c-section
•other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
•increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
•loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
•higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
•newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)

Occasional complications and side effects:
•complications of episiotomy
•spousal/partner abuse
•hyperemesis gravidarum
•temporary and permanent injury to back
•severe scarring requiring later surgery
(especially after additional pregnancies)
•dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
•pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
•eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
•gestational diabetes
•placenta previa
•anemia (which can be life-threatening)
•thrombocytopenic purpura
•severe cramping
•embolism (blood clots)
•medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
•diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
•mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
•serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
•hormonal imbalance
•ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
•broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
•hemorrhage and
•numerous other complications of delivery
•refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
•aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
•severe post-partum depression and psychosis
•research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
•research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
•research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:
•peripartum cardiomyopathy
•cardiopulmonary arrest
•magnesium toxicity
•severe hypoxemia/acidosis
•massive embolism
•increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
•molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
(like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
•malignant arrhythmia
•circulatory collapse
•placental abruption
•obstetric fistula
More permanent side effects:
•future infertility
•permanent disability
•death.

 

Nope, that's not what I said.

 

I agree.

By your logic, pregnancy is an injury/assault BC the woman doesnt want to be pregnant, and its not consensual. I have a counterarguement to that.

If abortion was made illegal on the basis of morality/responsibility, pregnancy would be the womans obligation, and "consent" wouldn't even be an issue. I dont want to type out my emotions, im trying to be logical, but this is my honest opinion.

The baby is innocent. It's not trying to make the womans life inconvneient. Women want to abort because pregnancy is inconvneint. To put this into basic terms, because a woman doesn't want to be pregnant because shes selfish, the baby is viewed as an "assaulter". Fugazi argued, "innocence is irrelevant with regards to self defense", but it isnt. The baby isnt trying to make the womans life inconvenient. Thats the reason she doesnt want to be pregnant.

How selfish and evil some women in this society are. They have less morality than wild animals.

 

It's what you posted. What did you mean?

 

And you have been proven erroneous in your thinking by dozens and dozens of posts....but if you want to believe such goofy ideas you have that right....even if it causes panic attacks

 

I made this point in another thread, and I think it adequately addresses your counterargument: suppose a person who is mentally incompetent/incapacitated goes up to a woman (or a man) and grabs on to them and won't let go. The incapacitated person is innocent and just behaving out of instinct, but they've latched on so tight the only way to remove them would cause them harm or death. Do you really think the person they latched on to is evil or selfish for not wanting to have this other person uncomfortably groping and kicking them for months on end? If they agreed or consented to it that's one thing (and I do think the idea of "withdrawing" consent becomes more fuzzy when it'll result in the other person's death), but if the consent was never there at any point then why should there be any moral responsibility toward this stranger?

 

Here are the flaws with your analogy.

1-The woman is the parent of the fetus. She has obligations to it. She has zero obligations whatsoever to a stranger.
2-The woman is responsible for getting pregnant. She had sex, and if she didnt have sex, she wouldnt have gotten pregnant. Women who have abortions think having fun is more important than an innocent fetuss life. That doesnt apply to your hypothethical scenario.
3-Your analogy doesnt work, because its a totally unrealistic random hypothethical.

 

1-The fetus/offspring is a stranger until the parent decides to accept it as their child. If you consent to any person entering your abode, stranger or not, you do have some obligation to ensure that person's safety (within reason). If you never consented, it's a different story.
2-Most women take reasonable precautions to prevent pregnancy when having sex if they don't want one, but it sometimes fails. It seems like you're suggesting only gay people should be allowed to have recreational sex, and that's just downright heterophobic! There are some women who are irresponsible and abort pregnancies because they want to have fun, and it's fair to criticize them, but those are a only very small minority. Others are going to school, trying to have a career, supporting extended families or doing other worthwhile things to better their lives and the lives of people around them that giving nine months (and possibly 18 years) of their life to a stranger would take away from.
3-Your counterargument doesn't work, because most analogies are hypothetical and aren't perfect analogies.

 

Even though I disagree with the abortion prohibitionists, I respect the fact they're consistent in their views concerning parental responsibility. If a pregnancy occurs, they hold both the man and the woman responsible for their respective "obligations" towards the progeny from the time of conception, and consider both of them weak and spineless for trying to get out those obligations.

The "pro-choice" crowd can't legitimately call themselves pro-choice if they don't allow both parents equal opportunity to legally opt out of parenthood after an unintended conception occurs. Otherwise they're just as bad as the people they're trying to paint as "anti-women".

 

First: I am NOT the "pro-choice crowd".

I refuse to pass legislation (as if I could) that let's men walk away from their LIVE LIVING REAL ACTUALLY HERE children. That is NOT the same as a woman having an abortion (which doesn't involve a child).




It's a practical matter. If a woman has an abortion it doesn't affect anyone but her. If a man (or woman) doesn't support their children, the taxpayers support it.

Now the Man Worshippers can whine about how unfair THAT is but they wouldn't trade places with women and their periods and pregnancies and gynecological problems EVER so for them to whine about how unfair it is that they don't have a vagina is laughable.

How FAIR is it that women have to put up and suffer through all those things ?????????


Ya want FAIR? Talk to the manufacturer.


You still haven't explained what you really meant by : """ I agree with you that it's not accurate to describe any pregnancy as an injury""