Without God...

Well, you know that famous quote by Shakespeare.....


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

The point is, be skeptical, but don't be closed minded, either. There is a fine line that can be walked on the path of healthy skepticism. Not enough and you are a cynic, too much and you are a gullible fool. Wisdom is the equilibrium. I wouldn't be so presumptuous about a man like Siddhartha, or any of the great sages. One thing I would never do is assume that just because science cannot falsify something seamingly spiritual, I wouldn't assume it's false, nor would I assume it's supernatural ( as I don't believe in the supernatural which is to say, something might appear to be supernatural, but, once understood, it will be demonstrated that it wasn't supernatural, after all. Everything is natural, if it exists, if nature allows it, it is natural ).

On the path to enlightenment, you are born with the tools to find it, though, in my view, it is rare the individual who knows how to use those tools, knows how to locate them, exploit them, and benefit from them. Nature gives us clues, signs, etc., pointing the way, but they are subtle, they don't shout, and only the very wise manage to see them. If you don't find them in this life, the good news is that you will have many more chances to try again.

That what they teach, and I find solace and hope in that teaching, but what I like about it it doesn't give me a lot of rituals to practice, rules of conduct to obey, etc., it's just you and the wind to follow your own path and mind your own sensibilities.

"In the forest, the grass grows all by itself". Every seed is endowed with the mechanism for it's flowering. I should think it's no different for humanity. Thus, no 'religion' is needed, really. It's not about having religion, it's about being religious, having the quality of being religious, the attitude that casts wonderment of existence, from the twinkle in a child's eye, to the view of the vast universe above us.

"Life is a not problem to be solved, it is a mystery to be lived" --- Osho Rajneesh, paraphrasing a quote by Kierkegaard

Someone asked my why quote Osho? Why not quote Kierkegaard? Well, because Osho's restatement has more poetry to it. I think it's an improvement over the original.

Seek and ye shall find, though it might take a while, but don't stop. Good luck.

 

You provide a thoughtful post which I appreciate. The sort of post that one hopes to find here in this forum. But I don't fully grasp your use of the word enlightenment. As the word is used in religion, enlightenment represents a claim to graspinging that cannot be demonstrated by empirical evidence, and is used to justify all sorts of claims about a God, Karma, reincarnation, etc.

However, if the word enlightenment is being used by you to describe a state of acquired wisdom and experience that is a sort of "ah so" gestalt moment, I get it, and I think I have had that experience. Just not sure if what I experienced would considered or called a transendental experience. If smoking toad venom (5-MeO-DMT) was legal, safe, and could be done under controlled circumstances, that would be something I would like to try as a tool to possibly acheive a transendental experience. The claims concerning toad venom certainly seem impressive, but I remember when similar claims were made concerning LSD. Those claims seem to end for I what think are rather obvious reasons after the 1969 Woodstock "Music and Art Fair, an event that I was a personal participant of. lol

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappen...n-woodstock-1.5248046?cmp=google-amp_comments

 

As for what 'enlightenment' means, think of it this way, or rather, don't think of it this way;

when the dancer disappears, and only the dance remains, you are enlightened.

The mind will find that statement unsettling. The mind will not be able to grasp it, especially a mind that believes only that which can be understood via empirical observation is it valid. If that is what you believe, then you will forever be barking up the wrong tree. All of the Zen koans are designed to unsettle the mind, because, dropping the mind is the goal. Now, don't fret, this doesn't mean 'insanity', it means letting the fog of the mind get out of the way, and that which is the essence of you, arise forth.

The mind is a very necessary thing, it's like the caterpillar's cocoon. It encompasses the critter, and when the critter is ready, it busts out of the cocoon ( dropping the mind ) and 'has wings'. The analogy is perfect. And what, precisely, is that which has these 'wings'? That is the $64,000 question.

The Zen masters of japan have a term, it's called 'Satori', They tell us enlightenment may fall on one all at once, but usually first appears in little glimpses. Like the ebb of tide tickling your toes, but you can see the big wave in the distance, beyond it, you can see your ship, soon to come, off in the distance, and you can see it clearly, but it hasn't arrived yet. That is 'satori'. Once you achieve satori, you really no longer need a guide ( a guru, or master ), you have safely navigated those uncharted waters, it's up to you now, to find your way from there on. At that point, you know who is, and who isn't, a real master. On this earth, in my opinion, at least in the public space, of the last few hundred years, I've only observed a few real masters. In the 19th century and part of the 20th century, it was Ramana Maharshi. in the mid to modern era of the 20th century, it was Krishnamurti, and also Osho Rajneesh, who had a wild side, very controversial, but he was enlightened, on that point, in my opinion, there is no question. Also note that there is no convention was to what a enlightened being is supposed to act, sound like, or be like. some will piss you off, some will do things (piss them off so they just get up and leave) to weed out the individuals who are hopeless, who are eternally pettifogging the message, but keep in mind, they don't give a damn what you think, and all of them have that in common. If you think an enlightened being is supposed to act in a certain way, you may never find your master. to illustrate this point, listen to Osho's lecture on the 'magical word'



Clearly, the average person wouldn't expect such a lecture from an enlightened.

But, when you are ready, he (or she) will appear. That's an old saying. If they don't appeal to you, then, you are not ready (for them, though you might find someone who does appeal to you, and that's fine, too. It's all good).

I've read many of his books, (Osho's) and they weren't written, they were recorded contemporaneously as he spoke, the words written down, and put into books. they are some of the most compelling books I've ever read, and validated my own experience. Osho passed away some 30 years ago.

In the living, there is only one person that appeals to my sensibilities, to be a true enlightened being, and that is Sadhguru. who has many YouTube videos. I'd listen to a bunch of them. Now, keep in mind, not all masters agree with each other on this or that, and some say things I still disagree with them. But, listen carefully to the silence between the words, that is far more important. Listen for the subtle tugs at your shirttails, are they pointing you in a direction? Are they hinting at something elusive? Don't get bogged down in to the substances of words, it's way too misleading, and can definitely send you barking up the wrong tree.

No one can define it, it defies description, but, once attained, you'll be glad you sought it. It always goes back to the old adage:

"Know thyself, and the truth shall set you free'.

Nature plants crumbs for us, it's like a hint, "psssst, over here......." this is what 'shroom's, peyote' etc are. They are not enlightenment, but, for some, they temporarily remove the mind so that one can 'see', but for most people, they just hallucinate. But, it's not enlightenment, it's only a hint, a much lower harmonic of it. And that's it: they are a lower harmonic, and that's only if you 'get it', most don't. It's like a child tugging at your shirttails, 'hey, over here, go this way'. Nature's little crumbs, hints. As for LSD, leave it to a chemist to synthesize what nature has already provided. It's not enlightenment, nor can one achieve enlightenment with drugs. For one thing, it's too cheap. No way in hell would nature allow anyone to achieve enlightenment by taking a pill. But, what do I know? I'm no chemist. That being said, these drugs can definitely bring you catharsis, in a big way. But, caveat, they can bring nightmares, it depends on the individual. To be clear, I do not recommend taking them, they are unnecessary. I took shrooms twice as a teenager, back in '66, and that is the last time I took a psychedelic drug.

I think there is one operative word that keeps me in line, and not falling by the way side, and that is, is this experience cathartic?

Catharsis, all occurances advancing you towards enlightenment will bring catharsis, of some kind, shape, or form. That much, I do know, and what else I also know is everyone is different, and we each have to find our own way. For some, it's group, for other's, it's a path of solitude, there is no one way that is right for everyone. There is no one size fits all. There are over 4000 religions, so, pick one. Or pick none. It doesn't matter, or it only matters, to you.

 

I'm sorry that you have to mock God. God still loves you though, if you accept him as your personal Savior.

God created Love. God Created Blindness, God created Stevie Wonder, and God created you.

 

Oh brother!!!!!!!!!!

 

Stop for a moment and think about what you just wrote....

God loves you, IF you accept him as saving you from him torturing you. Does that sound loving or abusive?

Do you love your wife, IF she accepts that you save her from the beating you'd otherwise give her and think she deserves because she doesn't meet your impossible standards?

I don't think so. You are too good a person for that, right? So why isn't God?

 

Um, how do you know whats on Gods mind, God never wrote so much as one work in any bible or text. seems there are lots of people putting words in god mouth now days

 

You state that as a fact, but it's merely your belief.

 

Spiritual enlightenment is the state where birth is forgotten, as are name and form. The journey is begun by becoming the observer of everything you do.

Then one must strip naked and trample one's clothes.

 

Then run down to the store and go grocery shopping!

 

Sex is evil,
evil is sin,
sin is forgiven
so sex is in!

 

So, when sex is in, and she asked 'is it in?" you know you forgot to bring the viagra.

 

Some people have ears to hear.

"Few there be who found it".

 

and some have eyes to see, but many don't really use them. or there ears for that matter.

most people now adays, only see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear.

 

Interesting -

I would add that the idea that dorking one's brain chemistry will lead to superior brain performance, imparting wiser ideas or insights hits me as something that deserves major major skepticism.

As for evidence, you rightly point out that the various chemicals humans have used don't seem to earn any lasting trust in that department - regardless of how entertaining they might be.

 

What if tomorrow you were given absolute evidence that God does not exist, would that change your life in the slightest? If not, then you are already living as if there was no God, if it would then explain how it would.

 

God does not answer the "why" questions either.
Believing a God exists is merely answering the why questions with a guess. I could answer the why questions just as easily by invoking the name of my pet dog.

 

I am a true atheist and I have many things to live for. My next cup of coffee, my next vacation with my wife, the next episode of She-Hulk...

What I don't have is something to die for. I don't have to worry if I'm going to be denied access to an afterlife that I don't believe exists. I don't have to worry if I've pissed off God by looking at a picture of Alison Brie and having lust in my heart. Hell, I don't have to worry about WHICH God I may have pissed off.

I get to live for today, I get to enjoy the time I have NOW instead of worrying if that enjoyment is going to cause me to suffer eternal damnation.

Until someone gives me good evidence of a God and evidence of what He/She/It wants....I'm not going to worry about it.

I feel sorry for someone that is so worried that tomorrow they are going to be gored by a unicorn that they can't enjoy today. That is no different then someone worried about what God is going to do to them after they die.

 

I might have agreed with you up until I got a precription for the medication described below which provided me with an increase in focus, concerntarion, cognition, memory and insight to a degree that was shocking. Needless to say, I would never recommend this medication to anyone unless prescribed by a medical doctor.

https://nouse.co.uk/2009/06/30/modafinil-the-new-wonder-drug/

 

I'm trying to look at the drug but can't open the link. Have you read the laundry list of
possible side effects, JET3534???? All drugs come with S/E attached to them.

 

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-16962/modafinil-oral/details/list-sideeffects

 

Yep, thanks for the post and I'd run so far from this drug, they would never catch me. I've been running from the high
powered drugs since the 1980's....

 

Try this link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil

My doctor did mention headaches as a potential side affect, but I have experinced zero side effects and an actual lowering of blood pressure whereas one would expect a stimulant to increase blood pressure. In any sort of congnitive tests I have always scored in the top 3 to 6 percentile, but after six months on the Modafinil I am closing in on the top 2 percentile which may not seem like much, but it is huge. I mention this not to make an ego claim but rather to demonstrate that I did not have impaired cognition before taking the Modafinil. Other changes include improved mood, an increased desire to be nice to other people, increased strength (lifting more weight at the gym), and improved cardio indurance. Insight is a hard thing to describe but the Modafinil provides a whole new perspective on things, such as being able to reflect on the past and mentally forgive people who have done bad things to me. So what is my point? Simply, that brain chemistry probably could be tweaked to improve mental and physical performance and being and feeling happy and this could be done as general healthcare. But as a society we will not do that. The reason IMHO is what is often called the Puritan ethic, the idea that man must suffer. This ethic is created by religions that claim we all deserve to suffer because of sin, because of the will of an invisible magic man in the sky, bad karma, God allowing free will, God wanting us to grow, not teaching an invisible supernatur God in the public schools, and so forth. That sad reality is a major reason why I post here from time to time in the religion forum.

 

Catholics, tend to lean more Democrat. Catholic priests who raped little boys. Why is it that so many democrats have a thing for underage girls and boys? jeffrey epstien, bill clinton.

I wonder if Democrat voters realize that their gods/politicians can be pastors also. I mean, like warnock in Georgia, he is corrupt, and helps evil, but pretends to be a man of God.

just because one pretends to be a sheep, doesn't mean that they aren't really a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

There are numerous cases of protestant preachers, and government officials of all parties, having the same problem.

Your one sided claims here demonstrate no more than your personal politics and lack of interest in fair representation.

If you want to charge someone, you better bring a cite from a well respected source.

And, especially so given the willingness to say what you said at the top of your post.